I've often read accusations that SOE is driven by greed.  I've often wondered outloud myself if this is what lies behind some of their seemingly bone-headed decisions regarding SWG and other MMOs (e.g. the unpopular addition of RMT to Everquest). 

Sometimes I wonder though if it's more about survival and desperation.  How much, for example, did they invest in SWG before it went live?  How much did they continue to invest in it in an attempt to "get it right?"  How much have they had to pay for the IP?

I wonder if they keep this thing running, and keep finding new ways to charge players more cash (e.g. RMT, server transfers), simply out of desperation to recover the money they invested in projects that didn't bring in the returns they expected.

What do you think, greed, desperation, all of the above, something else?

At the time when the NGE was implimented I felt is was pure greed on their part.

Now I feel it was a neccesary and logical step they had to make, this is regardless that it backfired on them and obviously things could have been done differently in my opinion.

Just imagine you have the worlds number one IP and then there is a gamecompany only know for totaly different genre of games and the company is called Blizzard, where you as a company have lots of experiance within this genre, yet that other company seems to grab equal as much subs slightly after a few day's of release, where your game with that great IP strungles to keep  even lower amounts of players. Also I feel that the battlenet players didn't flock to WOW at release, it where still the more traditional MMORPG players I base this on the maount of subs WOW gained at release which was very equal to the amount of players we seen across the MMORPG genre pre-WOW, the Battle.net players came in much later at a period WOW was going near and into the mil. subs., keep in mind this is just a opinion based on how I personaly saw it, I feel it's right, but could of course be somewhat wrong.

On a personal lvl I was very satisfied with having 200/300k players at the time, from a business standpoint it shows to be a major let down. There had to be done something. If only SWG was handled the way EVE was handled it would have had atleast more subs then EVE has but it would have never reached WOW numbers....never.

I wouldn't call it greed more like desperation. SOE now appears to be life boat survivors after setting a direct course through The iceberg NGE all the while claiming with great vibrato that they are unsinkable. All because of the competition from WoW , so its not greed, its envy.

My thought was always desperation.  Just as Reklaw said, SOE was unprepared- as was much of the industry- when WoW came out.  SWG numbers were very respectable prior, but when WoW hit the 'net, everything everybody thought they knew about the business went right out the window.  SOE and LA lost focus on the details of the game and began chasing raw numbers.  You could call this greed, since those numbers would have translated to dollars, but the primary motivation was putting the Star Wars IP on top of the heap.  Raking the bucks was second.

That probably changed after the NGE.  The cost of redesigning the game on the fly, coupled with the resulting crash in subscriptions and subsequent efforts to stop the bleeding and try to recover some players, had to be devestating.  Maybe they have recovered that loss, maybe not.  Being the industry leader they were (and still are), I never believed-as many here expressed - that Smed and company were retarded inbreds with no clue how to run a business.  I still don't.  SOE could never have gotten where they were/are otherwise.

But clearly they were unable to adapt to the changes in the MMO business brought by WoW and other games.  They lost their product and customer focus and now seemingly chase numbers.   There clearly needs to be a massive management turnover at all levels, something any other company would have done a long time ago in a comparable situation.   It is puzzling to me why this has not happened, unless SOE and mother Sony has written off SWG and any future collaboration with LA and are simply waiting for the license to expire and TOR to launch.

@tman5

Just receintly, LA signed a contract with SOE for another MMO.  So LA still has a positive relationship with SOE.  By the word of the managment on SWG, it was the "way" they sprang the NGE on us that was at fault.  Not the concept all together.  At the time, subs were slipping to WOW and the creative center of SWG had been in question.  Raph Koster was not really leading the team anymore as LA and/or SOE had lost faith in the sandbox type game he was designing.  Why?  All those damn exit polls and market research serveys took the faith from LA.  WOW rammed home why a change had to happen when it launched.  The CU was SOE's first smaller step but durring WOW's climb to fame (sucking subs from SWG while also adding new members to the MMO community) didn't have the same level of market performance.  Desperate, both SOE and LA  "hand-in-hand" committed to push the simpler NGE with a seperate dev team.  It was bad timing all around.  It was also an incomplete system placed on top of a already buggy incomplete system.  The game culture was out of wack with the Jedi Grind being the all consuming issue and not the GCW.

Through it all, Smedley and the new CEO of LA have kept a positive realtionship and now are continueing to look to future projects with lessons learned.  I just hope they practice better for it.  No more incomplete launches.  NO MORE! The market will not stand it.  Its a terriable practice and many companies are guilty of it.

Sorry, I will stop preaching. :(

Interesting question.

Greed? Arguably they could see how successful WoW was, so it had to play some part in it.

Desperation? Again, with WoW being the thundering success it was, there was obviously some "fear" at SoE as subs slipped.

While I think both of the above were the main factors, I also think there has almost always been a "disconnect" at SoE between customer and management that has certainly added to the games demise the past few years.

Originally posted by JYCowboy

@tman5

Just receintly, LA signed a contract with SOE for another MMO.  So LA still has a positive relationship with SOE.  By the word of the managment on SWG, it was the "way" they sprang the NGE on us that was at fault.  Not the concept all together.  At the time, subs were slipping to WOW and the creative center of SWG had been in question.  Raph Koster was not really leading the team anymore as LA and/or SOE had lost faith in the sandbox type game he was designing.  Why?  All those damn exit polls and market research serveys took the faith from LA.  WOW rammed home why a change had to happen when it launched.  The CU was SOE's first smaller step but durring WOW's climb to fame (sucking subs from SWG while also adding new members to the MMO community) didn't have the same level of market performance.  Desperate, both SOE and LA  "hand-in-hand" committed to push the simpler NGE with a seperate dev team.  It was bad timing all around.  It was also an incomplete system placed on top of a already buggy incomplete system.  The game culture was out of wake with the Jedi Grind being the all consuming issue and not the GCW.

 

Through it all, Smedley and the new CEO of LA have kept a positive realtionship and now are continueing to look to future projects with lessons learned.  I just hope they practice better for it.  No more incomplete launches.  NO MORE! The market will not stand it.  Its a terriable practice and many companies are guilty of it.

 

Sorry, I will stop preaching. :(

As of right now a new Star Wars MMO made by SOE is just a rumor.
 

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I've often read accusations that SOE is driven by greed.  I've often wondered outloud myself if this is what lies behind some of their seemingly bone-headed decisions regarding SWG and other MMOs (e.g. the unpopular addition of RMT to Everquest). 

Sometimes I wonder though if it's more about survival and desperation.  How much, for example, did they invest in SWG before it went live?  How much did they continue to invest in it in an attempt to "get it right?"  How much have they had to pay for the IP?

I wonder if they keep this thing running, and keep finding new ways to charge players more cash (e.g. RMT, server transfers), simply out of desperation to recover the money they invested in projects that didn't bring in the returns they expected.

What do you think, greed, desperation, all of the above, something else?

More likely pigheaded stupidity and a bit of syphilitic induced insanity. Very little this company has done in the history of SWG and their other titles has made much sense. Broken, unfinished releases, extreme and senseless nerfs, sweeping game changes, all seemingly done more to antagonize their player base than to retain it.

Originally posted by JYCowboy

@tman5

Just receintly, LA signed a contract with SOE for another MMO.  So LA still has a positive relationship with SOE. 

I did not know this.  My readings (admittedly out of date) suggested a very sour taste in both mouths.

By the word of the managment on SWG, it was the "way" they sprang the NGE on us that was at fault.  Not the concept all together. 

Yes, this has been noted many times.  Even given the NGE was "necessary," I still find no excuse for SOE- at the time, the king of the MMO industry - didn't plan and execute better.

At the time, subs were slipping to WOW and the creative center of SWG had been in question.  Raph Koster was not really leading the team anymore as LA and/or SOE had lost faith in the sandbox type game he was designing.  Why?  All those damn exit polls and market research serveys took the faith from LA. 

Yes, they clearly lost faith in the product.  They also lost focus on their existing customers, another puzzling move from a mature company.  The question should not have been "How do we get these guys back?" but rather "How do we keep more from leaving?"  The answers to that were all over the official forums, not in market research (I question "exit polling" because for the longest time, the exit questionairre when cancelling an SWG sub simply did not work.  I don't think it worked until after the NGE)

WOW rammed home why a change had to happen when it launched.  The CU was SOE's first smaller step but durring WOW's climb to fame (sucking subs from SWG while also adding new members to the MMO community) didn't have the same level of market performance.  Desperate, both SOE and LA  "hand-in-hand" committed to push the simpler NGE with a seperate dev team.  It was bad timing all around.  It was also an incomplete system placed on top of a already buggy incomplete system.  The game culture was out of wake with the Jedi Grind being the all consuming issue and not the GCW.

 Desperate.  Yes.  And I know LA was equally involved, but I still tend to blame SOE mostly because they were the subject matter experts.  They should have known better.

Through it all, Smedley and the new CEO of LA have kept a positive realtionship and now are continueing to look to future projects with lessons learned.  I just hope they practice better for it.  No more incomplete launches.  NO MORE! The market will not stand it.  Its a terriable practice and many companies are guilty of it.

Gamers have traditionally accepted whatever we were given, no matter how poorly put together, as if fearing if we didn't, game companies would stop making games (!?).  Gamers as a group are more mature now and should expect the same level of quality they would expect from any other product.  Blizzard ruined it for everyone.

Sorry, I will stop preaching. :(

Good preach though :)

Originally posted by tman5

Originally posted by JYCowboy

. . .

WOW rammed home why a change had to happen when it launched.  The CU was SOE's first smaller step but durring WOW's climb to fame (sucking subs from SWG while also adding new members to the MMO community) didn't have the same level of market performance.  Desperate, both SOE and LA  "hand-in-hand" committed to push the simpler NGE with a seperate dev team.  It was bad timing all around.  It was also an incomplete system placed on top of a already buggy incomplete system.  The game culture was out of wake with the Jedi Grind being the all consuming issue and not the GCW.

 Desperate.  Yes.  And I know LA was equally involved, but I still tend to blame SOE mostly because they were the subject matter experts.  They should have known better.

. . .

 

 

From all my readings and the past history of SOE, they didn't have the guts to make the NGE change without being pushed.  At the time, there were a number of folks self praising themselves for working with a company that would take such chances.  Meaning they were questioning even doing it all the way.  I know there are words from some involved recorded on other sites.  Posters here know what I mean ;)  That is why I feel strongly that LA should not be ignored.

SWG today is used as a launching board for up and comer devs for SOE.  Case in point is the former SOE Producer was transfered to another SOE project.  My guess he was moved to the Agancy when its leads quit. (Oh, boy zombie spys)  SWG's subs are down but its still pulling in some scratch to keep servers up. The TCG is really a way to capitalize on a certain Star Wars fan type; the collector.  The one that just has to have one of everything and has the cash to do it. The completest, if you will.  Its probably an idea that was spawned in LA and made clear sense to SOE though they used TCG on EQ first.  I promise anyone, LA knows how to work the collectors.  The collector is the kind that is dedicated to his/her mainia and could probably be found in SWG.  Gamers, however, could give a poodoo less as long as it makes them have an advantage.

There is also an apathy towards SWG from the management and devs of SWG.  Some love Star Wars but do the game as a job and little more.  Jeff Freeman expressed that very much in his blog.  This is further examplified by John Smedely in his DCU announcment.  He said it had been difficult to work this IP holders in this medium as they didn't understand it.  He then explains that DC is different because thier rep, Jim Lee, was a former EQ player.  Today, there are very few Pre-NGE Devs still working on Galaxies.  This hampers the reconstitution of code as few know it.  Space still has only one dev that half way understands it and is why its so little developed.

This gives rise to SWGs other function to SOE, test bead for new ideas.  The Star Wars Galaxies Chronicals system is new to SOE.  In time you will see that happen all over their old games. Some feel its a last ditch measure to add content.  I see it as another feature such as Battle Fields and Heroic Instances.  Its just another favor in the mix.

Oops, got to wall texting again.  Anyway take from that what you will. :)

I just read all the posts in the thread.  Some thoughtful stuff there, and one gave me a real chuckle ^_^.  Sounds like a lot of people are thinking some kind of combination of fear, desperation, WoW-envy, and bad judgment.  Motives are hard to figure, unless someone tells you outright why they did something, and you can trust them; but all that seems to fit.

I also like the comments on disconnect.  The decisions that were made just seemed really disconnected from what players wanted, and what many think the game actually needed.  Poor datamining was cited by Koster as a problem, and I think he was right.

They gave up on the original vision, but seemed to miss how poorly it was executed.  People have compared SWG to EVE, a game that didn't give up on its original vision, but appeared to vastly improve its polish and delivery.  I think you can only evaluate a vision for a game, if you first let the devs get it to a playable, enjoyable, polished state.  SWG seemed to be approaching this point a few times; but was then sent back to square one by some deperate visioning revamp.

People talk about SOE and LA learning from all of this.  I hope they have, and the leadership changes at L.A. make me think maybe they have.  Further (unpopular) revamps to SWG, the TCG loot, and the addition of quirky content that again seems disconnected from the StarWars universe still make me wonder about SOE though.

Still, I think there was some attempt to listen to players with regard to the Hoth instance.  It may not have been the addition of the planet, but given the resources allocated to the game, it seemed like a reasonable addition.  Beats the heck out of zombies.  Why are so many MMOs so obsessed with zombies? Lol.  Maybe the execs all drink together at the same bar in Austin :P

what SOE should have done is kept Pre-cu and put in store services like EQ 1& 2. with popular WoW at the time i can see how NGE looked like good idea but soon as it showed problems they should have went back to pre-cu build and sent apology stating was idea gone wrong and to bare with them as they fix it. SOE was fool to stick with it after more then half the game left and act like NGE was the bread and butter. i say both .

Originally posted by JYCowboy

This gives rise to SWGs other function to SOE, test bead for new ideas.  The Star Wars Galaxies Chronicals system is new to SOE.  In time you will see that happen all over their old games. Some feel its a last ditch measure to add content.  I see it as another feature such as Battle Fields and Heroic Instances.  Its just another favor in the mix.

 

This is a really good observation. SWG has all the audience it will ever have and they are fiercely loyal, meaning, it will take a lot to finally drive them away. We "vets" have marveled at what we see as continued bonehead moves by SOE within SWG, adding questionable features and content (i.e TCG, flying Ewoks).

But when viewing SWG as an incubator for new ideas and approaches, it makes much more sense. SWG becomes a live platform within which young devs can toss in nearly any idea – no matter how outlandish – and see what works and what doesn’t, what players find fun and what they do not. Star Wars be damned - continuity and lore no longer exist in SWG (hasn’t for a very long time), so things like cupid ewoks, zombies, vampires, the Loch Ness Monster can rightly show up on Naboo and the players just might like it.
 

Plain old stupidity if you ask me.

Originally posted by Mathos

Plain old stupidity if you ask me.

See, that's too easy.  Simply to dismiss it as "stupidity" ignores the factors that contributed to the decision.  Again, the folks who run SOE are not idiots.  Yet, their efforts have shown little evidence of that.   We will likely never know the whole story, but I would love to see what data they collected and studies they performed to bring them to the decision to gut SWG and graft in the NGE, an idea that seems so intuitively wrong you have to wonder why they thought they could get away with it. 

Simple "stupidity" or "hubris" or "greed" as explanation is unsatisfying to me.

Originally posted by tman5

Originally posted by Mathos

Plain old stupidity if you ask me.

 

See, that's too easy.  Simply to dismiss it as "stupidity" ignores the factors that contributed to the decision.  Again, the folks who run SOE are not idiots.  Yet, their efforts have shown little evidence of that.   We will likely never know the whole story, but I would love to see what data they collected and studies they performed to bring them to the decision to gut SWG and graft in the NGE, an idea that seems so intuitively wrong you have to wonder why they thought they could get away with it. 

 

Simple "stupidity" or "hubris" or "greed" as explanation is unsatisfying to me.

 

LA, before the NGE, had extreme hubris with thier brand.  They would have spurred on the change.

SOE is considered stupid for not holding to thier better judgement and standing up to the IP holder and saying "no, this is to far."

Greed is subjective.  Every company wants thier MMO to grow, be reguarded well and be unique to the market.  Those things will contribute to a better game in the end.  Is Blizzard greedy for holding such market share?

Originally posted by tman5

Originally posted by Mathos

Plain old stupidity if you ask me.

Simple "stupidity" or "hubris" or "greed" as explanation is unsatisfying to me.

 

I tend to lean towards arrogance with a little bit of not understanding their customers.

Originally posted by tman5

Originally posted by Mathos

Plain old stupidity if you ask me.

 

See, that's too easy.  Simply to dismiss it as "stupidity" ignores the factors that contributed to the decision.  Again, the folks who run SOE are not idiots.  Yet, their efforts have shown little evidence of that.   We will likely never know the whole story, but I would love to see what data they collected and studies they performed to bring them to the decision to gut SWG and graft in the NGE, an idea that seems so intuitively wrong you have to wonder why they thought they could get away with it. 

 

Simple "stupidity" or "hubris" or "greed" as explanation is unsatisfying to me.

 

This discussion has reminded me of some stuff from Rubenfield's blog.  I think the message from L.A. was, "how could you guys screw up StarWars?  Fix it now."  Then it seems like devs like Rubenfield started throwing ideas around.  I remember talk of an exec taking a look at some of the ideas in simulation and liking them, and then it was off to the races.  Reflecting on that, it sounds a lot like desperation. 

Then it sounds like they wanted very badly to believe that their half-baked ideas were going to somehow "save the game."  To reinforce this, I'm pretty sure they had a hand-picked, small bunch of players come in a test very selected parts of the revamp, just before it went live.  It sounds like they listened hard for anything positive, and pretty much turned a deaf ear to anything negative.

So, really I think that's desperation, mixed with embarrassment, mixed with group think, a skewed method of getting feedback from the players, and choosing to hear only the feedback that supported their desperate plans.

You know, I bet a lot of bad decisions in business and elsewhere probably have a lot of the same ingredients.

Originally posted by tman5

Originally posted by Mathos

Plain old stupidity if you ask me.

 

See, that's too easy.  Simply to dismiss it as "stupidity" ignores the factors that contributed to the decision.  Again, the folks who run SOE are not idiots.  Yet, their efforts have shown little evidence of that.   We will likely never know the whole story, but I would love to see what data they collected and studies they performed to bring them to the decision to gut SWG and graft in the NGE, an idea that seems so intuitively wrong you have to wonder why they thought they could get away with it. 

 

Simple "stupidity" or "hubris" or "greed" as explanation is unsatisfying to me.

 

You do have a valid point, but it if was not stupidity then it was intentional, and if that's the case then it was done with some malice on there part!.

You say "greed" like its a bad thing.  As Gorden Gecko taught us, "Greed is good"

Corporations exist for one primary purpose, to make maximize shareholder value.  All other considerations are secondary.

Every move SOE has made was in the interest of making more money but unfortunately, their plans backfired as in the case of the NGE.  (thats where the stupidity part comes in)

Some of it is pride and hubris I think, someone at SOE/LA refuuses to acknowledge that they were "wrong" in what they did.