Originally posted by SwampRob

I've no desire to change the game as it is, because clearly many people enjoy it.

However, for myself, making it a heavy solo game is the only way I'd consider even downloading the trial.

I like grouping, but a oh-so-loathe the downtime of getting everyone ready and to the mission start point.    Raiding is even worse.

Soloing, I play at the exact speed I enjoy, take breaks when i want to, and get all the loot.     Please continue to enjoy your style of play and I'll enjoy mine.

 

Happy gaming.

I think everyone likes the ability to do things on their own from time to time, or when there's no groups available, etc. etc. The thing is, when a MMO delivers enough content that allows soloing almost exclusively, if not exclusively, as an option, then more people solo... which results in groups being harder to assemble, because so many are soloing... which leads to people who'd otherwise be grouping having to solo themselves... which leads to a MMO that almost no one groups in.

Look at what's happening in FFXI... for years it was a group-centric MMO. People grouped and there were p ractically always groups to be found - if not one seeking, then you could put one together yourself (which many didn't do, opting to sit around with their seek flags up). Despite all that, people still found ways to solo, though they were limited, or at least substantially slower and riskier than in a party. In the past year or two, SE's started introducing new content that makes soloing more feasible... Having Dancer as a sub, FoV, Campaign Battle and so on... As that's continued, more and more people have started soloing or duoing and parties have become harder and harder to find, or even assemble.

Now there's that whole lame Astral Burn thing... which has resulted in me going to the Dunes a few nights ago, during prime time, to find *8* people soloing or duoing. You used to see parties everywhere in the Dunes. Now there's just people doing FoV's.

For all intents and purposes, FFXI is becoming more and more of a "soloers" game, with parties becoming more and more rare. If it can happen to FFXI with the addition of only a few systems that support it, it will certainly happen in a MMO that's designed to support soloing from the start.

Originally posted by Sixpax

I said this before in another thread, but it's worth repeating... the problem with FFXI isn't that it is group dependent or that there isn't anything to do while LFP.  The problem is it isn't group friendly.  It always blew my mind when there were 30 people all LFP and all sitting in Jeuno waiting for that invite.  That's the problem that FFXIV needs to address, not the lack of solo content.  I think for the most part people don't mind a group dependent game, what they do mind is not being able to group easily in a group dependent game.

The thing is... how many of those 30 people were even trying to assemble a party themselves? That's the thing... Back then, sometimes finding a group *could* be difficult, yes. But many times, more than some realize, a full party was right under their noses... but they wouldn't have known it because they were all waiting for a party to come to them instead of taking the initiative and putting it together themself.

A good friend of mine was *constantly* in parties. I'd ask her "how the heck do you find parties so quick? You just logged on 30 minutes ago and you're already xp'ing". She'd respond, "I put them together". 

Also, as far as nothing to do while waiting? Crafting, farming, fishing, gathering, socializing (believe it or not, that can be an entertaining way to pass the time), questing... Nowadays on top of all that, there's FoV, Campaign, soloing (since it's a lot more feasible).

I think part of the problem is that many people are stuck in this mindset of leveling being the only useful activity in the game to their character, when the reality is there are *many* activities in the game that can be useful... If I had a nickel for every time I"ve seen people complain about not having money, yet when you ask them what their craft is or what they harvest, they say "nothing... crafting is boring and I can't stand harvesting". Suggest that they do some of that while seeking a party and they respond like you just told them to jump off a bridge.

So many perceived problems in FFXI (and in other MMOs) are self-imposed by the players themselves, yet they blame the developers for it. The developers provide the content... they can't force you to do it if you don't want, but it's not their fault if you don't (not you personally, Six)

As a super casual mmo'er who hardly has time to play.. my "dream" setup for a PvE oriented Mmo is as follows.

Solo..make TONS AND TONS of solo content...with.. crappy rewards, and crappy xp.. make it so you CAN solo to cap, but you sure don't want too, and make it challanging.. dangerous...

Crafting.. make the gear a "tad" better then what you can get soloing..

grouping.. better xp and gear for group based content...

raid.. best gear..

Make it so you CAN solo, but would more likely WANT to group.. that's where pve games lack...

I HATE games where they try to give everything to everyone for there style.. it's a mmo.. lack of challange makes it boring, making everything obtainable defeats the purpose..

if you impliment a PvP system, make it a "for fun" system and pointless... don't let it have an impact on PvE balancing.. make a leaderboard and make bragging rights, and make PvP only useable loot or something if you have to, but for gods sake, don't let it impact PvE balance.

Me!

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Sixpax

I said this before in another thread, but it's worth repeating... the problem with FFXI isn't that it is group dependent or that there isn't anything to do while LFP.  The problem is it isn't group friendly.  It always blew my mind when there were 30 people all LFP and all sitting in Jeuno waiting for that invite.  That's the problem that FFXIV needs to address, not the lack of solo content.  I think for the most part people don't mind a group dependent game, what they do mind is not being able to group easily in a group dependent game.

The thing is... how many of those 30 people were even trying to assemble a party themselves? That's the thing... Back then, sometimes finding a group *could* be difficult, yes. But many times, more than some realize, a full party was right under their noses... but they wouldn't have known it because they were all waiting for a party to come to them instead of taking the initiative and putting it together themself.

A good friend of mine was *constantly* in parties. I'd ask her "how the heck do you find parties so quick? You just logged on 30 minutes ago and you're already xp'ing". She'd respond, "I put them together". 

Also, as far as nothing to do while waiting? Crafting, farming, fishing, gathering, socializing (believe it or not, that can be an entertaining way to pass the time), questing... Nowadays on top of all that, there's FoV, Campaign, soloing (since it's a lot more feasible).

I think part of the problem is that many people are stuck in this mindset of leveling being the only useful activity in the game to their character, when the reality is there are *many* activities in the game that can be useful... If I had a nickel for every time I"ve seen people complain about not having money, yet when you ask them what their craft is or what they harvest, they say "nothing... crafting is boring and I can't stand harvesting". Suggest that they do some of that while seeking a party and they respond like you just told them to jump off a bridge.

So many perceived problems in FFXI (and in other MMOs) are self-imposed by the players themselves, yet they blame the developers for it. The developers provide the content... they can't force you to do it if you don't want, but it's not their fault if you don't (not you personally, Six)

 

Very good points, and I do agree with you, but SE wasn't without blame either.  I spent a lot of time doing some of the things you mentioned while LFP but I know good and well that I missed party invites because of it.  Even though you could get just about anywhere in 5 minutes or so, if someone was LFP in the same zone that a party needed a replacement, they got the invite.  If SE designed it so that parties could summon people, that wouldn't have been an issue.  If you could put up your LFP flag as one combo and switch to another, that would have helped.  If each job combo had a unique ability that made them all (or almost all) worthwhile, that would have helped.  If they increased spawn rates based on how fast the mobs were dieing so you could get more parties in the same zone, that would have helped.

Originally posted by Sixpax

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Sixpax

I said this before in another thread, but it's worth repeating... the problem with FFXI isn't that it is group dependent or that there isn't anything to do while LFP.  The problem is it isn't group friendly.  It always blew my mind when there were 30 people all LFP and all sitting in Jeuno waiting for that invite.  That's the problem that FFXIV needs to address, not the lack of solo content.  I think for the most part people don't mind a group dependent game, what they do mind is not being able to group easily in a group dependent game.

The thing is... how many of those 30 people were even trying to assemble a party themselves? That's the thing... Back then, sometimes finding a group *could* be difficult, yes. But many times, more than some realize, a full party was right under their noses... but they wouldn't have known it because they were all waiting for a party to come to them instead of taking the initiative and putting it together themself.

A good friend of mine was *constantly* in parties. I'd ask her "how the heck do you find parties so quick? You just logged on 30 minutes ago and you're already xp'ing". She'd respond, "I put them together". 

Also, as far as nothing to do while waiting? Crafting, farming, fishing, gathering, socializing (believe it or not, that can be an entertaining way to pass the time), questing... Nowadays on top of all that, there's FoV, Campaign, soloing (since it's a lot more feasible).

I think part of the problem is that many people are stuck in this mindset of leveling being the only useful activity in the game to their character, when the reality is there are *many* activities in the game that can be useful... If I had a nickel for every time I"ve seen people complain about not having money, yet when you ask them what their craft is or what they harvest, they say "nothing... crafting is boring and I can't stand harvesting". Suggest that they do some of that while seeking a party and they respond like you just told them to jump off a bridge.

So many perceived problems in FFXI (and in other MMOs) are self-imposed by the players themselves, yet they blame the developers for it. The developers provide the content... they can't force you to do it if you don't want, but it's not their fault if you don't (not you personally, Six)

 

 

Very good points, and I do agree with you, but SE wasn't without blame either.  I spent a lot of time doing some of the things you mentioned while LFP but I know good and well that I missed party invites because of it.  Even though you could get just about anywhere in 5 minutes or so, if someone was LFP in the same zone that a party needed a replacement, they got the invite.  If SE designed it so that parties could summon people, that wouldn't have been an issue.  If you could put up your LFP flag as one combo and switch to another, that would have helped.  If each job combo had a unique ability that made them all (or almost all) worthwhile, that would have helped.  If they increased spawn rates based on how fast the mobs were dieing so you could get more parties in the same zone, that would have helped.

These are all very good ideas.  Hopefully the like will be addressed with XIV, as SE has said they are learning from their past mistakes/downfalls with FFXI (and I tend to believe them).

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Sixpax

I said this before in another thread, but it's worth repeating... the problem with FFXI isn't that it is group dependent or that there isn't anything to do while LFP.  The problem is it isn't group friendly.  It always blew my mind when there were 30 people all LFP and all sitting in Jeuno waiting for that invite.  That's the problem that FFXIV needs to address, not the lack of solo content.  I think for the most part people don't mind a group dependent game, what they do mind is not being able to group easily in a group dependent game.

The thing is... how many of those 30 people were even trying to assemble a party themselves? That's the thing... Back then, sometimes finding a group *could* be difficult, yes. But many times, more than some realize, a full party was right under their noses... but they wouldn't have known it because they were all waiting for a party to come to them instead of taking the initiative and putting it together themself.

A good friend of mine was *constantly* in parties. I'd ask her "how the heck do you find parties so quick? You just logged on 30 minutes ago and you're already xp'ing". She'd respond, "I put them together". 

Also, as far as nothing to do while waiting? Crafting, farming, fishing, gathering, socializing (believe it or not, that can be an entertaining way to pass the time), questing... Nowadays on top of all that, there's FoV, Campaign, soloing (since it's a lot more feasible).

I think part of the problem is that many people are stuck in this mindset of leveling being the only useful activity in the game to their character, when the reality is there are *many* activities in the game that can be useful... If I had a nickel for every time I"ve seen people complain about not having money, yet when you ask them what their craft is or what they harvest, they say "nothing... crafting is boring and I can't stand harvesting". Suggest that they do some of that while seeking a party and they respond like you just told them to jump off a bridge.

So many perceived problems in FFXI (and in other MMOs) are self-imposed by the players themselves, yet they blame the developers for it. The developers provide the content... they can't force you to do it if you don't want, but it's not their fault if you don't (not you personally, Six)

 

I'm generally of the opinion the players are right if they complain that something isn't fun.  It isn't the job of the player to work himself over to make something fun.  The game should simply be fun.  If a lot of players have trouble getting in parties, then from a developer and game designstandpoint that is a problem with the game.  If a lot of players find the things besides combat and leveling boring when they shouldn't be, then that is a problem with the game.  Forming parties doesn't have to be a cumbersome chore if the game is designed right.  You can design a game so that soloing works AND so that you can form parties of 2-6 people, each party size working (obviously if you are in a party of size 2 then you are probably in a different area than the same level of people in a party of size 6).  Crafting and non-combat/non-leveling activities don't have to be doing the same thing over and over (and most people do find repetitive tasks like this boring).  It would require innovation to fix crafting, but it is far from impossible.

On the other hand, the masses are typically terribly wrong when they propose game mechanics.  Most people simply suck at designing balanced and fun mechanics.  Some people who are players are good at this, but it is pretty rare.  Again though, the game, by its very nature, is supposed to be fun, so if a lot of players find something to be not fun, then it isn't their problem, but rather the game's.  It's important to understand the distinction between these two things, which can get blurred.  People often say stuff like "the game should work like X" or "X should replace Y" or the like, and what one might be able to get out of that (if changes to Y are often proposed for instance) is that Y isn't fun or Y is broken in some way.  Often a lot of the X's proposed are stupid and bad, but that doesn't mean the players don't have a point when they keep saying that Y has to be changed.  In short, players are good at identifying problems where the game isn't fun, but they are terrible at proposing how those problems should be fixed.

So when players say "grouping sucked in FFXI", then one shouldn't dismiss this out of hand.  If people say "crafting was boring in FFXI" then one shouldn't dismiss this out of hand.  Thankfully Square seems to grok this and it looks like they are working on fixing a lot of things people found to be unfun.

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Originally posted by Sixpax  
Very good points, and I do agree with you, but SE wasn't without blame either.  I spent a lot of time doing some of the things you mentioned while LFP but I know good and well that I missed party invites because of it.  Even though you could get just about anywhere in 5 minutes or so, if someone was LFP in the same zone that a party needed a replacement, they got the invite.  If SE designed it so that parties could summon people, that wouldn't have been an issue.  If you could put up your LFP flag as one combo and switch to another, that would have helped.  If each job combo had a unique ability that made them all (or almost all) worthwhile, that would have helped.  If they increased spawn rates based on how fast the mobs were dieing so you could get more parties in the same zone, that would have helped.

---

I don't really think this fixes the problem, just slaps a band aid on it. I personally think the better solution is to make it so that parties don't have such rigid requirements (one tank, a healer or two, and dps), and in particularly moving away from having classes that are needed in a much higher proportion than the proportion of players who enjoy player them (healers, I am looking at you, though tanks aren't exempt here either). I'm happy to see Square seems to be doing both of these things in FFXI. This makes forming a party much easier, since you don't have to wait for an uncommon player. Combat mechanics will be different of course, but there are many, many fun games out there without dedicated healers and tanks that use tactical combat, so it is quite doable. Hopefully party size will also be pretty flexible (quite possible as well if most xp come from quests, since given the quest system they've described with a little scripting it could easily scale with party size).

I don't expect them to make this game very solo centric like say, WoW, but I do expect them to make it more friendly towards people like myself whom, honestly don't have a lot of time in our day to play, but would like to be able to accomplish something in the few hours I have, and yes, that means, making it possible for solo players to level and advance if they can't find a party.

I agree that, what needs to happen, is there should simply be a better incentive to party together. To use WoW as an example... yes, I can level all the way to 80 if I want to... but If I want to get the cooler gear, faster XP, Faster faction points etc. etc. Then I'll have to find a group and do dungeons together. That's one way of making it solo friendly, without alienating those that want to party.

Personally, even if they make it as solo friendly as LOTRO, then I'm on board.

Originally posted by GlowingMoon

I personally don't mind soloing every now and then, and occasionally having some time to myself.

But I personally think what makes this genre really fun is playing with other gamers.

I personally feel as though if they make It solo centered I might as well be playing a Single Player Final Fantasy. And playing that way like It's almost a single player game is no fun for me personally.

It's going to suck for me If they make It a heavy heavy solo centric game.

Am I alone here? Does everyone want a more single player experience in their MMORPG'S?

It saddens me a little that this might happen.

Without breaking down the entire game i will give you one example as to why in this new design a solo designed game is a big fail.Now assume they make soloing easier than FFXI,witch is what we are talking about here,so more xp for soloing Even MAtch than waht FFXI allowed as this would be the type of fight you could solo,VT and IT would of course stil lbe out of the question...maybe?.
 

Now my example is assuming i know the structure of the design ,i do not completely know ,nobody does.However this is what COULD happen....i start as a warrior,give myself WARCRY,change to thief startup sneak attack,walk up behind a sight mob and utilize massive damage,now i switch back to a ninja,i got a huge upperhand on the mob now.Change to DRK or BLM and STUN or SLEEP,now change back to thief sneak attack again,change back to ninja for safety of shadows or heck even Paladin so i can heal myself.There is also the possibility i can utilize several buffs before a fight by changing to 6/7/8 different jobs like having regen and shadows ect ect.

Square may vary well have an answer for this lame design,by not allowing you to have buffs unless you are on that job,but we wil lhave to wait and see,maybe they won't have an answer and allow for some ridiculolus easy game play.No other game has ever allowed anyone to have access to every ability and every spell at their choice,so this will be one tricky design to pull off correctly.

Now assume this is all possible to make soloing much easier,what would that mean for a group?WHOA ! is what i have to say,imagine 6 thiefs starting with sneak attack or 6 rangers all loading up sidewinder to start a fight,it gets incredibly ridiculous to say the least.Once you crossover  and allow easy XP for soloing ,you cannot help but make grouping easier also,it is impossible not to.The ONLY reason soloing exists in other games,is because they are not designed to grind on mobs,they grind boring quests instead,so no matter how many people you have doing the quest,your XP is always the same,that is a huge difference in game design,witch does not work in FF.

Originally posted by Drachasor

 

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Originally posted by Sixpax  
Very good points, and I do agree with you, but SE wasn't without blame either.  I spent a lot of time doing some of the things you mentioned while LFP but I know good and well that I missed party invites because of it.  Even though you could get just about anywhere in 5 minutes or so, if someone was LFP in the same zone that a party needed a replacement, they got the invite.  If SE designed it so that parties could summon people, that wouldn't have been an issue.  If you could put up your LFP flag as one combo and switch to another, that would have helped.  If each job combo had a unique ability that made them all (or almost all) worthwhile, that would have helped.  If they increased spawn rates based on how fast the mobs were dieing so you could get more parties in the same zone, that would have helped.

---

 

I don't really think this fixes the problem, just slaps a band aid on it. I personally think the better solution is to make it so that parties don't have such rigid requirements (one tank, a healer or two, and dps), and in particularly moving away from having classes that are needed in a much higher proportion than the proportion of players who enjoy player them (healers, I am looking at you, though tanks aren't exempt here either). I'm happy to see Square seems to be doing both of these things in FFXI. This makes forming a party much easier, since you don't have to wait for an uncommon player. Combat mechanics will be different of course, but there are many, many fun games out there without dedicated healers and tanks that use tactical combat, so it is quite doable. Hopefully party size will also be pretty flexible (quite possible as well if most xp come from quests, since given the quest system they've described with a little scripting it could easily scale with party size).

 

While that idea sounds good on paper, I don't see how that can work.  If you can kill the same mobs that a "holy trinity" party can kill, then it would be more efficient to do so without a dedicated tank/healer because you'd put out more DPS.  So you wind up alienating the people that do play pure healers and tanks because they'd just slow down your TTK.  To fix that problem you have to adjust mob difficulty so that the party with the dedicated tank/healer can kill more difficult mobs at a slower pace and the party without a dedicated tank/healer can kill less difficult mobs but at a fast pace.  But... that's actually how FFXI was designed.  Merit parties are a prime example of parties with no pure tank or healer.

As for party size, I think that should be viable, and in FFXI it was to an extent.  I remember not having full parties and killing T/VT mobs.  It worked but wasn't ideal.

SE has their hands full trying to pander to the WOW crowd and keep a semblance of what makes a Final Fantasy game.

Personally as a WOW expansion is in the works and people coming from WOW tend to like nothing much aside from WOW and are IN-and-OUT of MMOGS in a matter of weeks, I do not see SE making inroads with this demographic no matter how easy they make their game. LOL

Take into consideration that soon after SE releases FF14 Blizzard is making a new MMOG, I think SE will have a hard time holding on to many of the WoW crowd at all. LOL

... and if they make their game too WOW-like and not grindy enough, difficult and group oriented they will lose their FF11 and Japanese fanbase in large quantities.

SE is definitely in a tight spot, in my opinion. Since money is the main focus of an MMOG developer we will see many WOW like principles and aspects at play in FF14... It just stands to reason... So the question is, can SE make these aspects fit in the Final Fantasy genre and can they make them more enjoyable then WOW, any expansions WOW might make and any new MMO Blizzard might make.

Personally I think SE should stick the the games dynamics and mechanics they know best and not try and chase the crazy WOW dragon, I don't know that they can compete with it on a level playing field.

Im playing FF2 btw, and I love the skill based system.

I've seen a lot of sentiment here for it being okay for FFXIV to be more solo friendly, as long as there area incentives for people to group. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a solo/group balance that satisfies both sides will be a lot harder to achieve than people realize.

For instance, it has already been mentioned that as group oriented as FFXI is, it was certainly possible to solo, and you didnt need to be a BST to do it. However, the advantage to grouping was so immense in most cases, that most people didnt look at soloing as a truly viable option.

Now, look at the other side. Imagine a game like FFXI, except where you can solo exp every bit as easily as in a group, with the only exception being say a 5% exp buff for being grouped. Considering the effort it takes to form a group, in virtually any game, are you really going to go to the trouble of finding/building a group for a measily 5% benefit? As much as I love grouping, I doubt I would.

I threw out the 5% figure as intentionally low to make a point. Most of us would probably agree that there should be more grouping incentive, not necessarily exp, but some sort of significant benefit to encourage grouping. Okay, but how much? 10%? 20%? 100%%??? It has definitely been my experience and impression that exactly the point where the group friendly players are thinking, "Okay, this is worth my time", those who prefer soloing are going to complain about how much they are being "penalized" for preferring to solo.

Just my  two cents.

Originally posted by Nicephorus

I've seen a lot of sentiment here for it being okay for FFXIV to be more solo friendly, as long as there area incentives for people to group. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a solo/group balance that satisfies both sides will be a lot harder to achieve than people realize.

That is total Bull and you know it! Fact is, you just want to make FF14 as just another carbon copy of FF11 with its rigid game mechanics with its rigid "holy trinity" group mechanics that ended up alienating a lot of players.

You say that there were plenty of ways to solo other than BST, yeah, you know why? Because the players who wanted to do more than just sit around in Jeuno Looking for/Forming a party, had gotten utterly SICK of waiting and not being able to play the game and accomplish something with their limited time. Yeah, they might not have worked, or may have come in a bit too late in order to get new players in, but it seems pretty obvious from their interviews that they learned their lessons and are planning to correct it.

As for your "example" of solo v. group incentives. I think you honestly must not play MMO's a lot considering how unrealistic your 5% "incentive" is. Then again, I'm sure you used that example only to help enhance your idea that you want FF14 to be mostly group oriented. First off, not even in WoW can you honestly level at exactly the same rate solo, as would a full party, nor is there a 5% difference, it's bigger than that I'm sure. Secondly, there are more incentives for partying other than 5% I'm sure (dungeon quests, loot etc.) but don't let that get in your way of proving your point *sarcasm*.

I for one am GLAD that FF14 is not going to be a complete carbon copy of FFXI, and are planning to do away with the rigid group mechanics. Needing 6 people almost all the time in order to get to experience a good chunk of the areas in the game is not smart, it's not challenging. It's annoying, it's a time sink, time a lot of players don't have because, well... some of us have to work in order to continue playing.

Originally posted by Question82

Originally posted by Nicephorus

I've seen a lot of sentiment here for it being okay for FFXIV to be more solo friendly, as long as there area incentives for people to group. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a solo/group balance that satisfies both sides will be a lot harder to achieve than people realize.

 

That is total Bull and you know it! Fact is, you just want to make FF14 as just another carbon copy of FF11 with its rigid game mechanics with its rigid "holy trinity" group mechanics that ended up alienating a lot of players.

Wow, talk about being an ass. Of course, the fact that you reacted so strongly simply proves my point, which incidentally, you totally missed. Did you even read beyond the first sentence, or did you just decide what you thought I meant ahead of time and go from there????

Originally posted by Question82

Originally posted by Nicephorus

I've seen a lot of sentiment here for it being okay for FFXIV to be more solo friendly, as long as there area incentives for people to group. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a solo/group balance that satisfies both sides will be a lot harder to achieve than people realize.

 That is total Bull and you know it! Fact is, you just want to make FF14 as just another carbon copy of FF11 with its rigid game mechanics with its rigid "holy trinity" group mechanics that ended up alienating a lot of players.

The "Holy trinity" group mechanics WERE the only thing that kept alot of us playing. Why would anyone want a easy FFXI??? There are plenty of other games that do this now.

You say that there were plenty of ways to solo other than BST, yeah, you know why? Because the players who wanted to do more than just sit around in Jeuno Looking for/Forming a party, had gotten utterly SICK of waiting and not being able to play the game and accomplish something with their limited time. Yeah, they might not have worked, or may have come in a bit too late in order to get new players in, but it seems pretty obvious from their interviews that they learned their lessons and are planning to correct it.

This is a problem of the Designers. Not the system. If only 1 class can heal well, or only one is a usefull Tank that falls 100% on the developers. And any player complaints should be directed there. not the group system. I never waited more than 10 min to get into a group. EVER. I played a Whm / Rdm. If you wont adapt to the system in place do you whine that your tank cant out damage a DPS? or do you switch to the DPS?

I for one am GLAD that FF14 is not going to be a complete carbon copy of FFXI, and are planning to do away with the rigid group mechanics. Needing 6 people almost all the time in order to get to experience a good chunk of the areas in the game is not smart, it's not challenging. It's annoying, it's a time sink, time a lot of players don't have because, well... some of us have to work in order to continue playing.

Like it or not that system was the only thing keeping FFXI from beeing just another clone.

Originally posted by Nicephorus

I've seen a lot of sentiment here for it being okay for FFXIV to be more solo friendly, as long as there area incentives for people to group. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a solo/group balance that satisfies both sides will be a lot harder to achieve than people realize.

For instance, it has already been mentioned that as group oriented as FFXI is, it was certainly possible to solo, and you didnt need to be a BST to do it. However, the advantage to grouping was so immense in most cases, that most people didnt look at soloing as a truly viable option.

Now, look at the other side. Imagine a game like FFXI, except where you can solo exp every bit as easily as in a group, with the only exception being say a 5% exp buff for being grouped. Considering the effort it takes to form a group, in virtually any game, are you really going to go to the trouble of finding/building a group for a measily 5% benefit? As much as I love grouping, I doubt I would.

I threw out the 5% figure as intentionally low to make a point. Most of us would probably agree that there should be more grouping incentive, not necessarily exp, but some sort of significant benefit to encourage grouping. Okay, but how much? 10%? 20%? 100%%??? It has definitely been my experience and impression that exactly the point where the group friendly players are thinking, "Okay, this is worth my time", those who prefer soloing are going to complain about how much they are being "penalized" for preferring to solo.

Just my  two cents.

Well spoken and I loved it. Especially the highlighted part. That was well thought out and so true I slapped my knee.

Originally posted by Question82

Originally posted by Nicephorus

I've seen a lot of sentiment here for it being okay for FFXIV to be more solo friendly, as long as there area incentives for people to group. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a solo/group balance that satisfies both sides will be a lot harder to achieve than people realize.

 

That is total Bull and you know it! Fact is, you just want to make FF14 as just another carbon copy of FF11 with its rigid game mechanics with its rigid "holy trinity" group mechanics that ended up alienating a lot of players.

The rest is just passionate solo ranting.

In regards to the highlighted part. -> That is the idea, alienate those who would not want to take part in a community environment. If a person wants to play an RPG all the power to them, however an MMORPG is supposed to require group and community effort on multiple levels to create the semblance of a real world. Not just raids my friend.

So if you cannot learn to take part and interact with others in order to further yourelf in the game then you will not further yourself in the game. This means grouping with people, having people assist you with quests and assisting them(so your rep is good), buying and selling from an auction and sometimes from bazaars, and even sometimes changing your job to fita need so you can get the level you want faster, or sucking it up if that choice is not something you can go for. In FF11 now there are often healers waiting for a party and DD is hard to find so now all those people who wanted to be DD can get invites much faster.

If a game panders to the solo crowd then its community will suffer. If SE thinks it can attract enough of the solo crowd then it may do this and care little about the community built because they will be bringing in money. However, good luck to them, the market is saturated and will only continue to be saturated with WOW-chasers.

Its funny you keep bringing up a 9 year old game and saying- "Look its hard and grouping was forced thats why its numbers suck".

Its numbers do not suck in general and its nine years old. So many people wont play it because it is old or they havent heard of it.

If FF14 was just a new FF11 with updated graphics quests jobs etc... they would do great and have longevity in their playerbase (something FF11 has consistently had). 

Originally posted by Bellarion

Originally posted by Question82

Originally posted by Nicephorus

I've seen a lot of sentiment here for it being okay for FFXIV to be more solo friendly, as long as there area incentives for people to group. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a solo/group balance that satisfies both sides will be a lot harder to achieve than people realize.

 

That is total Bull and you know it! Fact is, you just want to make FF14 as just another carbon copy of FF11 with its rigid game mechanics with its rigid "holy trinity" group mechanics that ended up alienating a lot of players.

 

The rest is just passionate solo ranting.

 

In regards to the highlighted part. -> That is the idea, alienate those who would not want to take part in a community environment. If a person wants to play an RPG all the power to them, however an MMORPG is supposed to require group and community effort on multiple levels to create the semblance of a real world. Not just raids my friend.

 

So if you cannot learn to take part and interact with others in order to further yourelf in the game then you will not further yourself in the game. This means grouping with people, having people assist you with quests and assisting them(so your rep is good), buying and selling from an auction and sometimes from bazaars, and even sometimes changing your job to fita need so you can get the level you want faster, or sucking it up if that choice is not something you can go for. In FF11 now there are often healers waiting for a party and DD is hard to find so now all those people who wanted to be DD can get invites much faster.

 

If a game panders to the solo crowd then its community will suffer. If SE thinks it can attract enough of the solo crowd then it may do this and care little about the community built because they will be bringing in money. However, good luck to them, the market is saturated and will only continue to be saturated with WOW-chasers.

Its funny you keep bringing up a 9 year old game and saying- "Look its hard and grouping was forced thats why its numbers suck".

Its numbers do not suck in general and its nine years old. So many people wont play it because it is old or they havent heard of it.

If FF14 was just a new FF11 with updated graphics quests jobs etc... they would do great and have longevity in their playerbase (something FF11 has consistently had). 

 

Congrats, you've completely missed his point (on multiple levels).  First, the Holy Trinity mechanics is NOT a necessity for grouping.  He wasn't saying grouping is bad at all, he was saying making grouping DIFFICULT is bad.  Making it take an hour to find people for a group is just plain bad design.  Get rid of the Tank-Healer-DPS system, and you can still have specializations with classes, but you can avoid a lot of the headaches of the HT.  Tanks and Healers tend not to be played by enough people, for instance.  Or, as you say, it might be DPS who are sorely needed, but this still completely sucks since the HT system imposes a strict system and repeatedly punches you in the face when you can't support it.  No HT and you can avoid having those specialties that are necessary to play but that aren't played enough.  This makes forming a group easier and makes the game play better.  It doesn't eliminate tactical depth anymore than real life combat has no tactical depth (in fact, with magic you have more tactical depth than real life allows, quite possibly).

Beyond that the best way to meet people in my experience, has always been to do so while questing/adventuring.  That's even how I met most of my good friends in FFXI.  I either met them adventuring when I was during the transition between soloing and grouping or I met them through those people I met early on.  This is how it has generally been for other games as well.  Maintaining this experience at later levels will help keep people making new friends and being social.

The idea they should keep things the same as FFXI is laughable.  Lack of innovation kills in this industry.  Old time players of FFXI still play because they stick to the product, but if you make a new MMO with archaic game mechanics and keep real problems that could be fixed, then it is not going to do nearly as well as you seem to think (in particular gaining new players will be difficult).

If you bothered to look at what they are doing in FFXIV, you'd see they are making grouping even better than before.  Now it will be easier to meet people.  Now it will be easier to form a group.  Quests you pick up with the Guildleve system are customizable, yet even with that the system is flexible enough that grouping while questing is supported -- I imagine this means the enemies will scale with your group (probably means enemies will spawn based on your group size, though that's just a guess).  That means if you don't have any friends online, then you pick up some Guildleve quests and go out and do them.  On the way you'll meet some friends in all likelihood (just lend a fellow a hand and usually that results in grouping and a friendship) and I hypothesize that game will dynamically scale up to your new group size keeping things challenging (and you don't have to sweat and fret over what class the guy is nearly as much as FFXI made you).

Oh, and the "solo crowd" is largely a myth.  There are rare people prefer to solo rather than group, but we're social animals and enjoy doing things with others (generally speaking).  The problem for some games (like WoW) is they punish people who group up by essentially making a ton of solo-only content.  It doesn't look like FFXIV is going to do this (they want people to use the Guildleve system and that is explicitly friendly with solo or for a group).