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10/18/09 2:22:23 PM#81
Originally posted by Bellarion I agree completely, The whole article...
I agree with you both in that when open world pvp is around the lowest group of society tend to get the most fun out of a game at the expense of others. I personally enjoy pvp a lot, but I also like to do other things and not worry about some jerk just waiting for me to have a weak moment and come and finish me off after fighting something else. So I just avoid games that have pvp that I feel will just be more hassel then enjoyment, unless I want to join those that kill the helpless. I personally enjoyed eve-onlines type of pvp systems. The world seemed safe if you were in empire space or in space controled by your alliance. It also had a lot of risk that helped get your heart rate up as you are traveling through space and see hostiles in the area. It also got lot of cooperation between players if they wanted to do things safely out in the dangerous areas. |
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10/18/09 9:11:39 PM#82
Since when do true carebears need PKers? Take away the PKers and the carebears are happy. They play the game and go on. It is the PKers who need the carebears. Not only do they need a target rich environment, but they feed off the chaos and havoc they create amongst the carebears. No carebears to cry and whine = sheer boredom for the PK/Griefer. Most Pkers in MMO's are not into the challenge of a good and fair fight, for those folks who enjoy "the sport" are already playing Medal of Honor, Counterstrike and so on. No, PKers see themselves as the lions preying on the wilderbeasts. But get this, wilderbeasts do just fine where there are no lions, but lions die out really fast when the prey is gone. Sure, the wilderbeast population might explode and then many die due to starvation, but in the end, there still will be wilderbeasts. A carebear MMO can function just fine without PVP (PKers or not). PKers cannot function without the targets... I mean... carebears.
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10/18/09 9:25:01 PM#83
Originally posted by BloodDuality
I agree with you both in that when open world pvp is around the lowest group of society tend to get the most fun out of a game at the expense of others. I personally enjoy pvp a lot, but I also like to do other things and not worry about some jerk just waiting for me to have a weak moment and come and finish me off after fighting something else. So I just avoid games that have pvp that I feel will just be more hassel then enjoyment, unless I want to join those that kill the helpless. I personally enjoyed eve-onlines type of pvp systems. The world seemed safe if you were in empire space or in space controled by your alliance. It also had a lot of risk that helped get your heart rate up as you are traveling through space and see hostiles in the area. It also got lot of cooperation between players if they wanted to do things safely out in the dangerous areas.
this bullshit needs to stop lowest group of society? some people enjoy killing, ruining someone elses good time in video games because they are professionals etc..etc.. can't do it in real life you know, the same reason some of you fruitcakes roleplay with "women" (other guys) in video games... well they're roleplaying out a killer.. right because everyones arguement is that all games are about roleplaying (nfl madden 2010 too) so get over this lowest group of society crap, its not all teenagers, its not all scumbags living with their parents playing for 14 hours straight....
you are all so self righteous its not even funny |
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10/18/09 9:43:18 PM#84
Originally posted by Vinterkrig
I agree with you both in that when open world pvp is around the lowest group of society tend to get the most fun out of a game at the expense of others. I personally enjoy pvp a lot, but I also like to do other things and not worry about some jerk just waiting for me to have a weak moment and come and finish me off after fighting something else. So I just avoid games that have pvp that I feel will just be more hassel then enjoyment, unless I want to join those that kill the helpless. I personally enjoyed eve-onlines type of pvp systems. The world seemed safe if you were in empire space or in space controled by your alliance. It also had a lot of risk that helped get your heart rate up as you are traveling through space and see hostiles in the area. It also got lot of cooperation between players if they wanted to do things safely out in the dangerous areas.
this bullshit needs to stop lowest group of society? some people enjoy killing, ruining someone elses good time in video games because they are professionals etc..etc.. can't do it in real life you know, the same reason some of you fruitcakes roleplay with "women" (other guys) in video games... well they're roleplaying out a killer.. right because everyones arguement is that all games are about roleplaying (nfl madden 2010 too) so get over this lowest group of society crap, its not all teenagers, its not all scumbags living with their parents playing for 14 hours straight....
you are all so self righteous its not even funny
Actually they can do that in RL... they are called Criminals.... Anyways, I do agree with you that it is not just the teens, for anyone has the power to be an asshat. The fact is, it depends on the game. In PVP based games, whining about getting Pked is juvenile. After all, what part of PVP did the player not get? However, bullying and griefing (PVP game or not) can cross the line as to what an entire playerbase deems acceptable, and at that point, those folks who choose to engage in such behavior will be labelled as the "Dregs of Society" or the "lowest of the low." In this case, the PKers have no one to blame but themselves, and they should understand that is the "cost of doing business" just as getting gunned down by the cops or going to jail is for criminals. And yes, most societies see criminals as being the lowest of the low, except, maybe in the US, where Lawyers and Politicians are hated more. |
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10/18/09 11:34:29 PM#85
Originally posted by Vinterkrig Yes, "lowest group of society". Sociopaths might be a better term. Anyone who sets out to ruin someone else's fun and considers it their own fun to do so, regardless of what their social position is in real life, is a sociopath. We call them "griefers" in the online world; certainly you've heard that term. If, in real life, someone were to just randomly beat you senseless, they would be thrown in jail if they were caught. Since they can't ruin someone's day in real life, they should be allowed to do it in a game? In what universe does this make sense? There's nothing wrong with open-PVP at all, but do not expect everyone to play in it without some rule of law, just as nobody would want to live in an area of the world without rule of law. Oh and I agree with the "fruitcakes" remark - that's just odd. :p There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum |
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10/19/09 12:40:46 AM#86
I do hate to bring it up, but Runescape up until fairly recently did a very good job creating a symbiotic relationship betweeing PKing and Crafting.
As a Crafter, I never had to enter the PKing zone (the wilderness) unless I chose to. Yet the PKers and anti-PKers went through crafted items like mad. It created a vibrant, dynamic encomy for crafted goods where crafters actually profited from their trade at almost all levels of the game.
However, in their attempt to quash real world trading Jagex, the makers of Runescape, basically changed the game completely, and this balance was destroyed. Jagex has been trying to pick up the pieces ever since.
While Runescape sucks at a lot of things (graphics, actual gameplay), they did do some fundamental things regarding in-game dynamics and mechanics very well that made for a great sense of community (although the community itself was often rather suspect as well). I have always said that a person could make a very successful living by following some of their successful examples and adding other techniques proven successful by other games.
If you made a technologically up-to-date Runescape (i.e., lose the browser dependence), with some semblance of an end-game; more quests; reduce the never-before-seen-grinding on 24 separate skills... but keep the cross-realm/server interactivity; reinstated the "lose everything on death but get nice rewards" PvP, leaving it optional, you could have very near the perfect game.
Or so I would think.
EDIT: I'd like to add that part of the old world RS economy was the fact that there were a decent number of players buying in-game items/coins with Real World Money. The reason PKers/Duelers had so much cash to spend on crafted items was that they bought in-game currency.
I think this can be addressed by a game have more atificial injections of currency for in-game PKs. Gold farmers were, in essence, an artificial injection of in-game currency because, as far as the game was concerned, players got currency for nothing in-game. They paid cash in the real world. |
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10/19/09 2:38:35 AM#87
Originally posted by PhelimReagh Agreed. The only good thing about runescape's skill system is the fact very few hit max levels, hence endgame-content isn't really required in the same sense as other games. Also, more quests? To be fair, runescape probably have the best quests in the mmorpg-world at the moment (say what you will about the game, but the quests are actually enjoyable). There's also quite many to do and unlike most games it can take you hours to complete the quests. |
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10/19/09 3:05:41 AM#88
Originally posted by Korhindi
Excellent points. Its not only that though. Most gankers/griefers would do rather poorly in a total PvP system. What they count on(no, what they must have) is unwilling/inexperienced targets. Put most of them in to a game with real PvP type players, and they would soon leave. We CareBears would do just fine without them. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3, Quake4 or Section 8. Games that have been designed from the ground up to be PvP. |
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10/19/09 3:33:48 AM#89
Originally posted by Wraithone
Excellent points. Its not only that though. Most gankers/griefers would do rather poorly in a total PvP system. What they count on(no, what they must have) is unwilling/inexperienced targets. Put most of them in to a game with real PvP type players, and they would soon leave. We CareBears would do just fine without them. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3, Quake4 or Section 8. Games that have been designed from the ground up to be PvP. Good mmo's are designed for pvp too. |
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10/19/09 5:50:50 AM#90
Originally posted by Yohanu Good mmo's are designed for pvp too.
Then I've yet to see a good one. I've played almost all of the major and many of the minor MMO's over the years. I've yet to see one that does PvP anything like as well as the FPS games I mentioned. Thats hardly surprising when one notes the differences in the game types. That having been said, I see no real point in MMO PvP. Its much too prone to ganking/griefing, and none of the counter systems that have been dreamed up over the years have done much to counter that. |
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10/19/09 9:47:22 AM#91
Originally posted by Wraithone
The reason here is simple. Developers have tried to make it "fair". "Fair" here meaning no punishment for the PKers for playing that end of their game. But no matter what you do, if the system is fair to the PKers, then they will continue to PK, and everyone else will continue to trickle out of said game. And again, you see no real point to MMO PvP (justifiable so) because games aren't designed to make PvP important to the game world. Lets face it, most of these "MMO's" are not much more than single player games with multiplayer functionality. They are not true social worlds, only social in communication and club membership. But the "social" does not extend into the game worlds, and has no meaning to that world. These worlds are dead backdrops. Nothing more. You can't affect them, and they can't affect you. They are only there to support the level grind.
Once upon a time.... |
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10/19/09 11:49:08 AM#92
Carebear who needs pks. I find myself joining and liking open world pvp games, even though, once I'm in them, I don't find myself pking often. At first I thought it was because UO came out in middleschool and early highschool and the only 'cool' excuse you could have for playing a fantasy online game was killing other players listening to bad metal. Now its because I like games that don't limit me arbitrarily. I know games out now are for the lowest common denominator, and so they have to make them easy with no consequences etc, but the nice thing about open pvp is the part it plays in sandbox games. When you really want crafting, trading, carting/hauling, locations etc to be important, you need open pvp. Without it, noone ever looses their gear, so you have things like arbitrary NO TRADE etc, where for some reason most of the things you own will disintigrate if you hand it to someone else. These kind of arbitrary rules move the game more towards a mario-esque experience. They're damn fun (note I'm playing EQ2), but I also like to play games where the way I Play is the important thing, not how long I play (since in a rails based game the only variable is how far down the tracks you are). What people have difficulty getting right is the consequence for pvp. If you make it too low, you end up with an FPS where everyone just kills everyone else, a gank/grief fest everyone here is complaining about. You make it high enough, its a high risk game, but with big wins for those that decide to PK. Those who live outside society should have a difficult time doing so, just as they do in real life. As a combat character, it should be much easier to guard a caravan for money than hide in a bush, attack them and hope that a swarm of people don't blob you to get the little bonus they'd get from killing a criminal. Don't limit my options like I need training wheels. I mean that for open-pvp too; make pvp the ONLY viable option and you are limiting me as well. Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo. |
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10/19/09 4:34:27 PM#93
>> All three groups need each other for the game's survival. Take away the carebear, and the anti-PK loses his mission; take away the anti-PK, and the tide turns red with grief; take away the PKer and - well, we've seen the ending of that story in countless MMOs. If Mortal Online, or any other game seeking to bring back the days of red, cares to see the success and popularity that Ultima Online made in those days, then the balance must be struck carefully between villain, hero, and heroine. << Utterly wrong. It is the PvPers that destroy games, not your insultingly termed "carebears". Every PvP-centric MMO ever has gone down the drain thanks to PvPers for three simple reasons. 1. They are 10% or so of the game population. 2. They grief the other 90% out of the game unless stopped by the developers. 3. 10% of the population is not enough to keep the servers up, especially since many of the cowards then jump to a different game because all of their "carebears" are gone and they haven't the huevos to fight other PvPrs. Eve Online is a perfect example of this. The lowsec wannabe "pirates" do not dare go into 0.0 where they could fight real PvPers. Instead they sit all day long camping a gate (the fixed spawn point entering in the zone), or fly around hoping to scan down some mission runner's area so they can jump them while the missioner is already engaged by NPCs. Or they go steal miner's ore from their cans to try to taunt the miner into fighting them with nothing for guns (mining lasers cannot be fired at other ships). Real brave, and the sole reason why people don't leave 0.0 to go explore and fight in lowsec, eventually moving on to 0.0 space - the griefers are camping the way there. Now put those same people into a game where people are trying to play their characters in the game - "charbears" if you will. They will fight if it's right for their char, but otherwise, they're engaged in learning the game, exploring, building things, and generally having fun. Here comes the PvP griefer, exploiting anything they can to screw up the game for someone who is trying to actually play it. Here's a true story of my first PvP experience ever, on the first PvP server in EQ1. I logged in for the very first time and BAM - a 5th level one-shotted my 1st level char with a sword. I logged in again - BAM the same thing. This utter @sshat had nothing better to do with his time than stand at the newbie spawn spot and kill brand new characters for the 2 copper and lint in their pockets. Seriously. Even after I skillfully evaded his next attack, got out of his sight around a tree and used my racial hide to go invisible on him and thus evaded his bullcrap spawncamping - beating him with nothing but pure SKILL in playing my char, mind you - do you think I was all happy and pleased and wanted to keep playing? HELL NO. If the developers of the game are happy with that kind of bullsh8 happening, I am not happy with the developers of the game and will not pay them my money. I sat down, logged off and said "Good luck paying for the server all by yourselves, @sshats". Here's another example - my beloved Planetside, a 100% PvP game where you can shoot everyone that isn't the same color as you. There shouldn't be any reason or need to grief or exploit, right? 'Cause it's 100% PvP. But still, about 10% of the population found exploits to pad their killcounts at the expense of the actual gameplay for everyone else. In a 100% PvP game where all you do is shoot other PvPers! But that just wasn't enough for the @sshats in the crowd, they had to be exploiting schmucks and ruin the fun for others with hotdropping, wallhumping, and haxing. Bottom line - the so-called "unafraid" PvPers are the ones that kill PvP games with their need to be cowardly griefers and exploiters. Kick those lowlives out of the game, and you'll see your "carebears" out there playing as the game was intended to be played, including fighting wars. For evidence, I refer you to Eve Online's Eve University, a massive carebear corp if there ever was one, intended to coddle up new players until they are ready to play the game on their own. Their war record and killboard tells the tale of how wussy and tame they are.
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10/19/09 6:55:58 PM#94
I'm still amazed on how many ppl call ganking PVP. Actually not ganking, but low lvl PKs. As i said i would mind if some1 around my lvl would try or even succed to PK me...that might make the game interesting....PKing a newbie with an high lvl toon on the other hand.... “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” A. Einstein |
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10/19/09 9:43:32 PM#95
Originally posted by Zzulu
Whaaat? Most so called "carebears" in Eve are in high security space. Where resources are not won by combat, they're just there for the taking.
Question, are YOU a crafting carebear who enjoys the thrill of being hunted by PKers while you try to harvest? No? then don't speak for others, you're obviously just trying to tell a big lie here. |
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10/19/09 10:22:10 PM#96
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10/20/09 3:06:55 AM#97
While this is not a review of Mortal Online, this article gives a very favourable impression of it. I am interested in that MMO myself, but it has had some severe problems as can be seen if you go to the forums for MO here. |
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10/20/09 5:53:45 AM#98
Originally posted by Scot
I've noticed that. The graphics in the video looked great. Its too bad they are so badly limiting the demographic they appeal to. Lets hope we don't have another Dark Fail on our hands here. |
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10/20/09 6:01:27 AM#99
Originally posted by wootin
Whaaat? Most so called "carebears" in Eve are in high security space. Where resources are not won by combat, they're just there for the taking.
Question, are YOU a crafting carebear who enjoys the thrill of being hunted by PKers while you try to harvest? No? then don't speak for others, you're obviously just trying to tell a big lie here.
You're confusing "carebears" with "casual players who never get to the endgame".
The production/trading/transporting/mining/maintenance/logistics in lowsec is a lot more impressive and interesting than empire auction houses, and A LOT more important. The carebears down in 0.0 are plenty.
Also, I've never had problems avoiding PKers so I can't say I've ever been part of the massive carebear slaughter every other carebear seems to always be a part of. I wonder if most casual carebears have ever even played a PvP centric game with loss upon death.
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10/20/09 10:35:40 AM#100
Lineage 2 Is a good game with Full pvp . You barely see any reds , and they have lots of different pvp systems that makes the game quite enjoyable ( castle siege , fortress siege , clan hall siege ( yes they all 3 are sieges , but they are completely different , normal pvp , olympiad etc ) And Mortal Online wont do the same mistakes as Darkfall. Once you become red , you are flagged as murderer for the next 20 hours IN-GAME , and also every time you die , if you are Red , you will lose skils. 4% , 8% , 10% (is the max capacity for losing skils). I sayed , EVERY time you Die , if you Are red . Dont take this as "Every time you die or , When you become red "
I actually think that full PvP is a really great options for a MMO. I always wanted to role-play a Thief/Murderer , but few games gave me this opportunity . Mortal Online will give it , and I dont really care If I get back to Skils : 0 as long as I get to play the way I want. If you cant suffer the consequences , then dont become a PK . Reds should be the elite of PvP , the daredevils of the game, Not a bunch of 12 years old kids , ganking on everybody and wasting people's time and efforts. |
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