Originally posted by ronan32

people who play wow are not mmo fans they are wow fans. Thats the difference.

yes.

*sigh* When will people learn that the only "insert MMO name here" Killer will be the company itself when they decide to pull the plug?

Sure another game might come along and hurt the subs, but until the company that owns the game pulls the plug it isn't dead.  They can be flops or failures, but it isn't dead until they nix it.

Show me a poster who said "If its not more popular than WOW its a failure." Good luck with that.

I agree with the guy who said if subs don't increase its a failure. Anyone who runs a business knows this. If your clients are decreasing something is wrong. If an MMO goes from 10k to 12K in a few months, I would consider that a success. To go from 700k to 300k in 3 months is nothing short of an abysmal failure. If you don't grasp that concept, then I don't know how to explain it any simpler.

Originally posted by Dethevan

*sigh* When will people learn that the only "insert MMO name here" Killer will be the company itself when they decide to pull the plug?

 

OK, all this literal definition crap is killing me. Are people that daft? When I say the Florida Gators killed the Troy Trojans in a football do you actually think I meant they terminated their lives?

When will people learn that when people say "insert MMO name here" is dead they are referring to a severe lack of population comapred to what it once was. Not a literal sense. Like in AC2.

EX. DAoC is dead now.

It means that once a game that had 45k users online at once now only has 3k online at once. No, technically not dead, but very far off from being the vibrant game it once was.

Originally posted by ronan32

people who play wow are not mmo fans they are wow fans. Thats the difference.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, exactly. Should people be willing to play a game(s) they hate, just so they're playing an MMO, to be able to consider themselves an 'MMO Fan'?  That reeks of desperation.  "I MUST find a new MMO to play, otherwise I don't know what to do with myself!  My life has no meaning unless I'm...doing stuff...in make-believe...with other people...online!!".  Yet millions feel that way about WoW.   It's a hard sell getting someone to pay a subscription for something they think is crap.  That's the problem with MMOs pre-and-post-WoW;  The genre is (mostly) full of shit. 

It's apparent; the market is there, the will to pay the fee is there...so what are all these other companies doing *wrong*, to such a degree that they can't reach a fraction of the market that Blizzard has consistently held?  We're talking about a game going on -5- years old.  Five Years.  People will only stick with something when it's perceived to have value.

Originally posted by brostyn 

I agree with the guy who said if subs don't increase its a failure. Anyone who runs a business knows this. If your clients are decreasing something is wrong. If an MMO goes from 10k to 12K in a few months, I would consider that a success. To go from 700k to 300k in 3 months is nothing short of an abysmal failure. If you don't grasp that concept, then I don't know how to explain it any simpler.

That is the stupist thing I ever heard.  So a mmorpg with 12k sub is a success.  And  a mmorpg with 300k sub is a failure.

Originally posted by Jatwhal

What about Pepsi

Burger King, Wendy's

Church's Fried Chicken, Popeye's

Toyota, Ford,

Apple, Dell

All "second best" companies and any I wouldn't mind owning...

So what is it with the mmo world and this common mentality that if a new mmo doesn't kill WoW it doesn't matter, it's not worth playing?

IN MY OPINION, WoW brought a whole new fan base to MMORPG's from the console world, as well as just those who heard of it through friends, seeing the commercials, posters, advertisements on various Pepsi products, etc. To a large majority of that fan base, WoW was their first MMO, so naturally it is their first and only love so they defend it rabidly.

Sadly a good majority of them are also one track minded and unwilling to actually look back at it's predecessor's to realize it isn't the first  MMO, and therefor, NOT the messiah of video games it's made out to be. It just happened to be the biggest through it's easy game play that virtually anyone can grasp quickly and massive advertisement (Which no other MMO had to it's point). As well as the ability to put a vastly polished game out at release that a lot of other companies were not able to do right off the bat because they didn't have a bunch of revenue from a series of games already established to bank on.

So a combination of those rabid fans that say "If it doesn't beat WoW, it doesn't matter" and a society of gamer's that seems hell bent on image, statistics, etc to lead their decision making in games, I feel this is why it is the way it is. Rabid WoW fans defending the game, the image frenzied players, and the WoW hater's that are just SICK of hearing about WoW that want to see some game come along and push it aside so it will be silenced.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by dstar.

I never understood the WoW killer thing.  How is another game suppose to kill WoW, when WoW did not kill any other games when it dropped? 

 

WoW killed EQ and other games before it.... It took subs from those games.  That is what the word "kill" means in this text.

No game is going to beat WoW numbers, IE not going to be a "WoW killer" due to Blizzard being a very smart company and knows how to keep its population happy and paying (playing).

The only game that will knock WoW out of first place is the next Blizzard game.  Unless a developer finally steps out from the "norm" and makes a great MMORPG.   (Great = many different opinions though) 

IMO a great MMORPGS needs: an open world, skill based charater development, PvP/RvR, Player choice though out the game, player skill driven PvP, and group focused content with some solo content.

It all boils down to marketing and Blizzard knows how to market/advertise thier games. There are several games that are as good if not better than WOW. Hell Vanguard is a lot better than WOW these days but most people have never even heard of it or is going by the state of the game at launch.
 

Originally posted by Wrender

It all boils down to marketing and Blizzard knows how to market/advertise thier games. There are several games that are as good if not better than WOW. Hell Vanguard is a lot better than WOW these days but most people have never even heard of it or is going by the state of the game at launch.
 

Ya but Vanguard is alot better than Wow "in your opinion".  you can't speak for everyone.

People will still be playing WOW 10 years from now (sad but true) at which time it wll hopefully have shrunk to niche status. What we need is a market with 4-5 diverse solid options, not WOW-killers, but games with loyal player bases and solid populations at a little above EVEs numbers (300-500k subs) which should be enough for the games to receive regular upgrade and development work. Once we have that, we will have games we can return to when new games have failed us, and hope to find something good and new. It would help the industry to aim for that and try to get their games in the rotation instead of encouraging players fixations on beating WOW.

WOW is McDonalds! We cant hope for gourmet delicacies coming from a company that aims to compete in the fast food market. A wildly succesful game should be able to hold on to around 800k subs for a couple of years, expecting more is unrealistic. Diversity works for us all and scaling down expectations might actually help in developing a more informed consumer base. No MMO will have WOWs number until the player base has grown considerably and if a game does out of some fluke manage, it will only become the new WOW and the cycle of bad clone games will continue...

Originally posted by Caleveira

WOW is McDonalds! We cant hope for gourmet delicacies coming from a company that aims to compete in the fast food market. A wildly succesful game should be able to hold on to around 800k subs for a couple of years, expecting more is unrealistic. Diversity works for us all and scaling down expectations might actually help in developing a more informed consumer base. No MMO will have WOWs number until the player base has grown considerably and if a game does out of some fluke manage, it will only become the new WOW and the cycle of bad clone games will continue...

Just because I'm curious, care to tell me what MMO prior or post WoW you would consider containing 'gourmet delicacies'?  Other than EVE, what MMO has really been...honestly...that 'good'?  Because I've been playing PC games a LONG time, and I know a lot of people pine away after EQ, AC and UO...but I never really saw the appeal of them. 

So, illuminate me. 

Originally posted by Eben

Originally posted by Caleveira

WOW is McDonalds! We cant hope for gourmet delicacies coming from a company that aims to compete in the fast food market. A wildly succesful game should be able to hold on to around 800k subs for a couple of years, expecting more is unrealistic. Diversity works for us all and scaling down expectations might actually help in developing a more informed consumer base. No MMO will have WOWs number until the player base has grown considerably and if a game does out of some fluke manage, it will only become the new WOW and the cycle of bad clone games will continue...

 

Just because I'm curious, care to tell me what MMO prior or post WoW you would consider containing 'gourmet delicacies'?  Other than EVE, what MMO has really been...honestly...that 'good'?  Because I've been playing PC games a LONG time, and I know a lot of people pine away after EQ, AC and UO...but I never really saw the appeal of them. 

So, illuminate me. 

Well for me EQ had most the features I want in an MMORPG.   It required  you to meet new people and explore the world.  The community was helpful and friendly (for the most part). Death hurt, it made you fear dieing.  This fear made players better, players learned how to avoid dieing at all cost.   So many great stories in EQ end with "I still do not know how we lived"

It's not about killing wow or not.  It's about making money. 

And by the look of it, other mmorpg company isn't making money.  Infact lossing quite a bit.

Originally posted by Eben

Originally posted by Caleveira

WOW is McDonalds! We cant hope for gourmet delicacies coming from a company that aims to compete in the fast food market. A wildly succesful game should be able to hold on to around 800k subs for a couple of years, expecting more is unrealistic. Diversity works for us all and scaling down expectations might actually help in developing a more informed consumer base. No MMO will have WOWs number until the player base has grown considerably and if a game does out of some fluke manage, it will only become the new WOW and the cycle of bad clone games will continue...

 

Just because I'm curious, care to tell me what MMO prior or post WoW you would consider containing 'gourmet delicacies'?  Other than EVE, what MMO has really been...honestly...that 'good'?  Because I've been playing PC games a LONG time, and I know a lot of people pine away after EQ, AC and UO...but I never really saw the appeal of them. 

So, illuminate me. 

I certainly agree, the genre is yet to evolve to something good enough you could actually compare to a three star restaurant. I would consider EVE more a Bistrot than cuisine. Still, ill take stuff like Burger King or Subway over McDonalds everyday of the week. Dont take it the wrong way, McDonalds still beats stuff like KFC or Arbys on my book, and theres plenty of those games out there as well. I think the best weve got right now is TGI Fridays or Chillis. LOTRO is kinda like Dennys...

Cant wait for the day MMOs get to the point i can metaphorically sit down to a Chateaubriand and a nice bottle of Malbec...

Edit; On the other hand, i do like the buffalo wings at Hooters.

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by Eben

Originally posted by Caleveira

WOW is McDonalds! We cant hope for gourmet delicacies coming from a company that aims to compete in the fast food market. A wildly succesful game should be able to hold on to around 800k subs for a couple of years, expecting more is unrealistic. Diversity works for us all and scaling down expectations might actually help in developing a more informed consumer base. No MMO will have WOWs number until the player base has grown considerably and if a game does out of some fluke manage, it will only become the new WOW and the cycle of bad clone games will continue...

 

Just because I'm curious, care to tell me what MMO prior or post WoW you would consider containing 'gourmet delicacies'?  Other than EVE, what MMO has really been...honestly...that 'good'?  Because I've been playing PC games a LONG time, and I know a lot of people pine away after EQ, AC and UO...but I never really saw the appeal of them. 

So, illuminate me. 

 

I certainly agree, the genre is yet to evolve to something good enough you could actually compare to a three star restaurant. I would consider EVE more a Bistrot than cuisine. Still, ill take stuff like Burger King or Subway over McDonalds everyday of the week. Dont take it the wrong way, McDonalds still beats stuff like KFC or Arbys on my book, and theres plenty of those games out there as well. I think the best weve got right now is TGI Fridays or Chillis. LOTRO is kinda like Dennys...

Cant wait for the day MMOs get to the point i can metaphorically sit down to a Chateaubriand and a nice bottle of Malbec...

Edit; On the other hand, i do like the buffalo wings at Hooters.

Not to change the subject, but....WHAT?!?!!!!

How does McDonald's even remotely come close to beating KFC or Arby's? Tasteless garbage burgers and most other stuff made there for that matter. The only items I would even consider eating from McDonald's now that I am an adult and my tastebuds have fully developed would be their fries and milkshakes.

But on the original subject, there will NEVER be an MMO you can compare to a three star restaurant because it is an ever evolving entity.

Probably just because they are bored or don't like WoW and maybe when they say WoW killer, that actually are referring to a dream game to kill their addiction to WoW.

WOW isnt going anywhere unless it is swallowed up by a black hole. Then what the hell would all the fanoys do?

Edit: Maybe they would be swallowed up also?

Originally posted by grandpagamer

WOW isnt going anywhere unless it is swallowed up by a black hole. Then what the hell would all the fanoys do?

Edit: Maybe they would be swallowed up also?

We can only hope...

@ GoatGod76; Nothing against roast beef or chicken but those joints gross me out (to be fair McDonalds kinda does too) i guess its just a matter of taste.

On the serious side, cuisine could be also calso called an evolving entity (as pretty much any other art form) i guess i may be somewhat naive but i still hope ill get to see a three star MMO in my lifetime.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by brostyn 

I agree with the guy who said if subs don't increase its a failure. Anyone who runs a business knows this. If your clients are decreasing something is wrong. If an MMO goes from 10k to 12K in a few months, I would consider that a success. To go from 700k to 300k in 3 months is nothing short of an abysmal failure. If you don't grasp that concept, then I don't know how to explain it any simpler.

 

That is the stupist thing I ever heard.  So a mmorpg with 12k sub is a success.  And  a mmorpg with 300k sub is a failure.

Probably, because you took it out of context. Try to read it within the paragraph. Ya'know I doubt you'd be able to. It was pretty straight forward. Let me try to help you.

One of them gained a 20% increase, the other lost over 50%. Try to wrap your mind around this concept. For a business to succeed it needs to grow. One of them grew while the other shrank. Obviously, if they both had 100 million dollar budgets they are both in pretty sad shape.

Hooters doesn't sell Buffalo Wings