I give them maybe a little credit with improving the performance a bit. But it was a on going issue for to long, ever since beta. The fact it took them this long to help really improve it. Go's to show their mind has been in the gutter about how to save this sinking ship. I know damn well Mythic loves this game, or why would they have made it. They also didn't want the game to be in the state it is now.. and they put a lot of work and time into it also. But they absolutely fail at commuication with it's playerbase.. it's been said many times by me and other people. That they have to be one of the most out of touch dev companies out there.

For example when we needed job's to seriously be fixed, they just beat around the bush... act like kid's and go about how they want to do shit. Which most of the time, ended up blowing up on them. Cause they allways thought they knew best, and we were a bunch of crybabies that didn't know better. Mythic has gone a great way of showing, how they couldn't really give a crap about their customer's. It's why this game is in the sad pathetic state it is.

They could've bit the bullet and shaped this game, into what the majority of what it's playerbase wanted. But we were left with a game that kept getting fucked over, time and time again. Cause Mythic thought they knew best.... ha, this game could've been awesome, but Mythic suck's far to much at what they do. It sadden's me to think, that theres a chance War, and DAoC... could cease to exsist in a year or two.

I don't see EA supporting this train wreck of a company for to much longer.

Maybe if there were some real life in game leaders for the factions. Someone to dole out quests, or give PvP tactical orders. Someone to get everyone on the same page and working together. They pretty much just threw the players into the game and let them decide for themselves what to do. And while that may sound great to give players freedome or whatnot, this whole lack of direction thing is pretty big in my opinion. I'm not saying I want to be told exactly how to play by the developers or GMs, but it would be nice to log on and be able to find out where the action is and how I can help my faction win something.

In real war there are commanders and soldiers. The better those two work together, the more successful they are, but when you have 7 different guilds on the same faction all doing their own thing, how is anything significant ever supposed to get done? What do players fight for right now? It certainly isn't any sort of faction pride or loyalty. There is very little comaradarie among players of the same faction. Players are basically given the option to fight for shallow material rewards, which become meaningless very quickly. The focus of progress is on the individual rather than the whole. If you can convince players to work together to build a stronger community instead of competing directly with every other person on the same side, I think the game would be alot more fun and meaningful.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Skeeterxi

MMO developers usually have different teams working on different areas of the game. Moving a resource from one area of the game to help fix another just doesn't work out because thats not their field. The people adding 'fluff' to the game per say, are not the people who are going to be able to help with the games performance issues and stuff like that.

Arguements like, "Why are you fixing A when B is broke and needs fixing and is more important?" are just not valid. I don't blame people for complaining things are broke, but complaining other things are getting fixed over more important issues doesn't hold water when they are two different areas of development.

I heard that excuse for months on Warhammer Alliance, and frankly - rah bah bah.

Fire the fluff makers and hire people who can write code worth a damn. Fire artists and hire more testers.

Exactly, if that is indeed the case, then stop wasting money on resources that aren't needed atm and put that money into resources that are critical at this point.

I'm guessing Skeeter that you haven't played this game recently or were/are lucky enough to be on one of the few remaining servers with a moderate pop. Because, when I left, the server I was on (which mind you, had a recent server merge) became a ghost town before I felt compelled to leave as I got tired of logging in to a server with a low pop.

No amount of fluff is going to solve that problem and unless they do something to get Team B to increase their efforts, most of Team A (the fluff team), if not all, will soon be out of a job!

 

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

AFAIK, Jeff Hickman is still in charge of Warhammer Online.

I guess he's too busy giving lectures to other devs on how to design MMOs to write the letter himself.

Irony rules this universe.

No, he's actually smart. He doesn't want to put all of his eggs in one basket. (If you're picking up what I'm laying down.)
 

Taken straight from the "Meet the Devs" page on the Warhammer website:

Courtesy of Mr. Hickman...

Jeff Hickman, Executive Producer
"Not to sound too cliché, but it truly is to make the best MMO ever. We are setting ourselves apart in so many different ways such as; RvR, Public Quests and the Tome of Knowledge (just to name a few). I have no doubt of our future success, it is just a matter of how massively successful WAR will be ;)" 

Here is the link:

http://herald.warhammeronline.com/devbios/index.php

Now, while I admire the confidence and think that the people over at Mythic really sound like a great group of people, you just don't make a claim like that and then release an Ability to walk and sit. (RP players rejoice!) as a pertinent feature in any patch, not ever! Especially considering some of the recent anger and resentment towards this game and Mythic in regards to these letters in the past and the features that have been ignored or have gone unchanged.

Originally posted by MrcdesOwnr

Originally posted by Skeeterxi

MMO developers usually have different teams working on different areas of the game. Moving a resource from one area of the game to help fix another just doesn't work out because thats not their field. The people adding 'fluff' to the game per say, are not the people who are going to be able to help with the games performance issues and stuff like that.

Arguements like, "Why are you fixing A when B is broke and needs fixing and is more important?" are just not valid. I don't blame people for complaining things are broke, but complaining other things are getting fixed over more important issues doesn't hold water when they are two different areas of development.

Well then, Mythic might want to consider firing the team in charge of B as they are getting a horrible return on their investment ;)

Look, let me break it down for you real simple like. You're in charge over at Mythic and while you may not be writing the Producer's Letter each time, you better believe you are reviewing it before it goes out the door!

So, the big day comes, you receive the letter and listed as the number one feature being changed or added in 1.3.3 is (drum roll please):

Ability to walk and sit. (RP players rejoice!)

Please tell me that at this point as the Big Chief over at Mythic, you're going to either:

A. Ask WTF Team B has been wasting their time on?

or

B. Ask the person you appointed to write the letter to dig a bit deeper in regards to features being listed.

So I ask you Mr. Smartguy, which is it?



 

 

Take things personal much? No reason to resort to elementary level disses.

Having a character be able to sit and walk is a pretty simple thing to do. I would not highlight in the notes as a feature, but I wouldn't leave it out of the game, or get mad at the development team for putting role playing features in a role playing game.

And if I was indeed in charge at Mythic, I wouldn't let a garbage beta game hit live servers because I wanted to beat another games expansion to store shelves. So that point is pretty worthless. I absolutely despise companies releasing incomplete games, and I would step down as the lead of a company before I let my name get ruined doing that.

Originally posted by MrcdesOwnr

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Skeeterxi

MMO developers usually have different teams working on different areas of the game. Moving a resource from one area of the game to help fix another just doesn't work out because thats not their field. The people adding 'fluff' to the game per say, are not the people who are going to be able to help with the games performance issues and stuff like that.

Arguements like, "Why are you fixing A when B is broke and needs fixing and is more important?" are just not valid. I don't blame people for complaining things are broke, but complaining other things are getting fixed over more important issues doesn't hold water when they are two different areas of development.

I heard that excuse for months on Warhammer Alliance, and frankly - rah bah bah.

Fire the fluff makers and hire people who can write code worth a damn. Fire artists and hire more testers.

Exactly, if that is indeed the case, then stop wasting money on resources that aren't needed atm and put that money into resources that are critical at this point.

I'm guessing Skeeter that you haven't played this game recently or were/are lucky enough to be on one of the few remaining servers with a moderate pop. Because, when I left, the server I was on (which mind you, had a recent server merge) became a ghost town before I felt compelled to leave as I got tired of logging in to a server with a low pop.

No amount of fluff is going to solve that problem and unless they do something to get Team B to increase their efforts, most of Team A (the fluff team), if not all, will soon be out of a job!

 

Throwing more people at something doesn't necessarily mean it will get fixed faster or more efficiently. I think the problem would lie more in organizational skills and communication skills rather than lack of man power. This companies whole development process is obviously fubar.

Originally posted by Skeeterxi

Originally posted by MrcdesOwnr

Originally posted by Skeeterxi

MMO developers usually have different teams working on different areas of the game. Moving a resource from one area of the game to help fix another just doesn't work out because thats not their field. The people adding 'fluff' to the game per say, are not the people who are going to be able to help with the games performance issues and stuff like that.

Arguements like, "Why are you fixing A when B is broke and needs fixing and is more important?" are just not valid. I don't blame people for complaining things are broke, but complaining other things are getting fixed over more important issues doesn't hold water when they are two different areas of development.

Well then, Mythic might want to consider firing the team in charge of B as they are getting a horrible return on their investment ;)

Look, let me break it down for you real simple like. You're in charge over at Mythic and while you may not be writing the Producer's Letter each time, you better believe you are reviewing it before it goes out the door!

So, the big day comes, you receive the letter and listed as the number one feature being changed or added in 1.3.3 is (drum roll please):

Ability to walk and sit. (RP players rejoice!)

Please tell me that at this point as the Big Chief over at Mythic, you're going to either:

A. Ask WTF Team B has been wasting their time on?

or

B. Ask the person you appointed to write the letter to dig a bit deeper in regards to features being listed.

So I ask you Mr. Smartguy, which is it?



 

 

 

Take things personal much? No reason to resort to elementary level disses.

Having a character be able to sit and walk is a pretty simple thing to do. I would not highlight in the notes as a feature, but I wouldn't leave it out of the game, or get mad at the development team for putting role playing features in a role playing game.

And if I was indeed in charge at Mythic, I wouldn't let a garbage beta game hit live servers because I wanted to beat another games expansion to store shelves. So that point is pretty worthless. I absolutely despise companies releasing incomplete games, and I would step down as the lead of a company before I let my name get ruined doing that.

No, I'm not taking it personally, nor should you. I was just being funny. Apologize if it sounded rude.

The ability to sit or stand does sound like a pretty simple thing to do to the average person, which is my point on why there is simply no need to include it as the foremost feature (or on the top of the list in this example).

I'm also not mad in the least at them for adding the feature into the game, just disappointed for the most part. As in that is the best you can do, really?

Like some others I'm sure, I was once one of several of a group of close friends (more than 10) playing this game together since beta. All have left over the last several months. Fortunately I was able to meet a lot of great people in game in my guild and outside of it. Unfortunately they too all left! Now, while I can understand what it feels like to be the last of a dying species, I am disappointed more over the fact that I absolutely love the Warhammer IP and believe that it deserves better than the dying community it has become. This IP should be flourishing and it's community robust, not subjected to playing musical chairs every so often to the few remaining servers left.

After hearing from player after player that I knew in game and out as to why they left, it all comes back to the fact that each one of them failed to see Mythic headed in the right direction for their liking and more importantly believe that Mythic really didn't give a squat about them or their feedback and what was important to them. Time after time I heard that as one after the other left.

 

Originally posted by Skeeterxi

MMO developers usually have different teams working on different areas of the game. Moving a resource from one area of the game to help fix another just doesn't work out because thats not their field. The people adding 'fluff' to the game per say, are not the people who are going to be able to help with the games performance issues and stuff like that.

Arguements like, "Why are you fixing A when B is broke and needs fixing and is more important?" are just not valid. I don't blame people for complaining things are broke, but complaining other things are getting fixed over more important issues doesn't hold water when they are two different areas of development.

The point isn't that there are man hours going towards implementing fluff features in the game. The point is that managing the community in a game as population dependent as Warhammer is a key job for developers here, particularly when the game has been universally panned and is in the process of dying slowly (or quickly depending on your PoV) due to subscription loss. By all means put the change in (I think adding flavor to the world is something important in an MMOs development) but for the love of god don't parade it in a developers letter at the top of a list of new features. All it does is take the focus off the very positive steps this game has taken forward with the new patch.

That said I resubbed for a month, as did a few of my friends. The game really is playing a fair bit better for me and I'm enjoying playing for the moment. Performance was one of  my biggest issues with this game, and it did not stand a chance without it improving. That said it still does not stand a chance in the medium term if Mythic do not get better at managing the justified distrust and despondency about the direction of this game.

Ya I totally  agree, it shouldn't have made the patch notes at all. Simple stuff like that should be ninja fixes. I don't believe Mythic ever lacked manpower. I do believe somewhere in the development process, organization or communication skills were lacking. That is probably the lack of good leadership and management. WAR had a pretty short development, around 3 years right? Its like Mythic tried to zerg it.

WAR is obviously the best IP for an MMO besides arguably LoTRO and Starwars. I never believed the game would be a WoW killer, I did think it would be the second best MMO to WoW though. At the very least it should have sat around 300k subs like LoTRO and been a niche game, which usually has better communities anyway.

Guys I don't want to sound trollish, but WAR has no chances of a comeback.
I played lots of MMOs since UO, majority of them were a disappointment and obviously I criticised them.

WAR though is a class on its own, it has nothing wrong really, except it is extremely uninteresting........not even boring, but just anonimous.
When I was playing it I could not force myself to login, and the wrost thing is that  unlike other disappointing MMOs, I didn't know the reason why.

I don't think they will be able to  put things right, the game is souless, no matter how many new features they put in it.
Mythic ruined a great IP in my opinion.

Originally posted by Amarok44

Originally posted by Skeeterxi

MMO developers usually have different teams working on different areas of the game. Moving a resource from one area of the game to help fix another just doesn't work out because thats not their field. The people adding 'fluff' to the game per say, are not the people who are going to be able to help with the games performance issues and stuff like that.

Arguements like, "Why are you fixing A when B is broke and needs fixing and is more important?" are just not valid. I don't blame people for complaining things are broke, but complaining other things are getting fixed over more important issues doesn't hold water when they are two different areas of development.

The point isn't that there are man hours going towards implementing fluff features in the game. The point is that managing the community in a game as population dependent as Warhammer is a key job for developers here, particularly when the game has been universally panned and is in the process of dying slowly (or quickly depending on your PoV) due to subscription loss. By all means put the change in (I think adding flavor to the world is something important in an MMOs development) but for the love of god don't parade it in a developers letter at the top of a list of new features. All it does is take the focus off the very positive steps this game has taken forward with the new patch.

That said I resubbed for a month, as did a few of my friends. The game really is playing a fair bit better for me and I'm enjoying playing for the moment. Performance was one of  my biggest issues with this game, and it did not stand a chance without it improving. That said it still does not stand a chance in the medium term if Mythic do not get better at managing the justified distrust and despondency about the direction of this game.

Eloquently put.
 

Originally posted by Skeeterxi

Ya I totally  agree, it shouldn't have made the patch notes at all. Simple stuff like that should be ninja fixes. I don't believe Mythic ever lacked manpower. I do believe somewhere in the development process, organization or communication skills were lacking. That is probably the lack of good leadership and management. WAR had a pretty short development, around 3 years right? Its like Mythic tried to zerg it.

WAR is obviously the best IP for an MMO besides arguably LoTRO and Starwars. I never believed the game would be a WoW killer, I did think it would be the second best MMO to WoW though. At the very least it should have sat around 300k subs like LoTRO and been a niche game, which usually has better communities anyway.

 

 

Agreed, and I forgot to mention LoTRO in my post earlier, but yeah this game at the very least should be doing better than it is on the draw of the IP alone. Unfortunately though, Mythic has angered so many people due to that lack of communication and leadership that it's going to be hard to get those subs back.

I know at lot of people who were downright pissed at those things and how game stability, server stability, and class balancing, seemed to be ignored for too long. I'm not saying they necessarily were, as I don't have eyes inside the walls of Mythic, but there's no denying that a lot of subs left feeling as such.

 

lotro sits at 150k eve has around 300k you got your numbers mixed up

Originally posted by ste2000

Guys I don't want to sound trollish, but WAR has no chances of a comeback.
I played lots of MMOs since UO, majority of them were a disappointment and obviously I criticised them.

WAR though is a class on its own, it has nothing wrong really, except it is extremely uninteresting........not even boring, but just anonimous.
When I was playing it I could not force myself to login, and the wrost thing is that  unlike other disappointing MMOs, I didn't know the reason why.

I don't think they will be able to  put things right, the game is souless, no matter how many new features they put in it.
Mythic ruined a great IP in my opinion.

I disagree with this. This death knell of Warhammer is something purely based on your opinion. While your opinion is completely valid, it is not shared by many other people. WAR for me (and many others) was so close to being a great large scale PvP combat game. Poor design choices, rubbish performance and balance issues were just some of the problems that have led WAR into the state it's in today, but I had some really really good times in this MMO, particularly in the lower two tiers. I think the potential of this game has rarely been in question.

In fact I think the statement "WAR though is a class on its own, it has nothing wrong really, except it is extremely uninteresting........not even boring, but just anonimous." is probably the opposite to most people's views on the game. The game's potential was ruined by crappy implementation.

Myself and others I know have always watched this game with interest to see if they fixed the issues with this game, and I think alot of people would come back if the game was looking in a state worthy of a positive reception.

What WAR devs need to do is the following.

RVR 

Focus the battles more.   This can be done by making one faction zone beeing fought over at the time.   For example - First there will be fighting over Dark elfs vs high elfs.  When that has been resolved by lockdown (after X amount of time based on who is leading or total domination) then its the dwarf vs greenskins.

Underdog system is a must and has to be implemented really fast.  This system has to work based on number of ppl playing in each tier.  If Order is outnumbered 3 to 1 like is happening alot - then a mecanic must kick in to still reward those trying to play the game.  In keeps this should mean that extra equipment is given to defend (more powerfull cannons and traps).    Underdogs need to be rewarded even MORE for trying to battle the masses.  Taking BO in dominated territory should give massive bonuses to get ppl going for them. 

Battle over resources. - This is where WAR fails. With a very poor crafting system - the battles over resources become pointless.  This can be implemented for example on BO areas where ppl could gain resources while waiting the 3 mins.  And as part of the underdog system - the rewards should be bigger.

PQs

Same as RVR when it comes to focus. There are way to many PQs out there to get ppl playing together for them.  Making them require diffrent number of ppl is a good idea but is still not rewarding enough to make ppl do them.

PVE

THis is where Mythic will need huge amount of work.  Stronger AI is a must - linking mobs together for example.  If you pull one that is standing close to another - then both will come.  If you wake a watchdog - then whole camps will wake.  Things like this.  

Storytelling through PVE - I remember a very good questline in High elf chapter where you have to recruit alot of diffrent NPCs to form a battle group.  But when it was done they just march off and you dont see them again.  What could be done is to create more of such tasks that in the end take you into a battle where you fight alongsite these NPCs.  This could be instanced one person zones (even using SC maps) where diffrent classes will get diffrent assignments in the scenario - and these scenarios will be phased j- so that in the end you will fight a monster or a hero with the help of the army you have gathered.     This is very much doable and would add alot to the game in terms of telling a story - and creating meaningfull  high points in every tier.

RPG

Sitting and walking.... is one thing that should already be in the game.  But still its a minor thing compared to many other issues that should have been solved.  Lets take mounts for example.  Dwarfs on helicopters ?   DOesn't Mythic realise that the main reason why PPL are not to fond of the dwarf race is because they have crappy mounts ?   Im sorry but is there a reason in WAR why dwarfs can't ride horses ?   Seriously ? ... You would have thought that beeing ally of the empire would mean that they could actually get help learning to ride horses....

These are just few points I feel worth to mention after 3 weeks of play (until Dragon age comes out).  I do not plan to sub again to WAR - Simply because I still see the game beeing faced with the same issues I encountered at release.  None of these issues have been solved (ppl soloing in SC for example, balance and so on).  And in some cases Mythic has actually been able to create new issues that make the actual gameplay worse than before (pointless rewards window popping up in PVP for example) . 

My concultion is that developers at Mythic are in no way in zink with what is happening ingame - or what the gamers are facing as beeing intresting or just annoying.  What pretty much everyone is feeling atm tho - is that Mythic are becoming desperate in their efforts.  Content and changes are thrown out half tested causing even more frustration amongst the players.  Thats not helping.  At all.

Very good post, Frobner.

As for fighting over resources - yes, it would add a lot to the importance and excitement of PvP. There are a couple of problems, though:

1 - what resources?  There really isn't much to fight FOR. This is a core problem in RvR motivation. There is ordnance (which trequired ridiculous amounts to buy anything when I was playing), but I can't think of anything else off hand. You COULD have mobs that drop high level crafting mats located in the PvP zones, so players could fight for those.

It really wouldn't take much thought to add things people can fight for. It should have been done long ago. However:

2 - the snowball effect (the rich get richer). How do you reward success in RvR without those rewards making the winning side win even more - until the losing side has NO chance at all? This is a serious challenge to the devs.

I honestly don't know how to do this. If the rewards are meaningful enough to encourage RvR, then they will unbalance the competition. You could make the rewards all consumable items (or gear which wears out), so the gains are temporary, but I don't know if that would be enough.

The only solution I can see is to run the RvR campaign for a certain time period (say - 2 months), declare a winner, then reset and go again. Run it like seasons in a team sport.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Very good post, Frobner.

As for fighting over resources - yes, it would add a lot to the importance and excitement of PvP. There are a couple of problems, though:

1 - what resources?  There really isn't much to fight FOR. This is a core problem in RvR motivation. There is ordnance (which trequired ridiculous amounts to buy anything when I was playing), but I can't think of anything else off hand. You COULD have mobs that drop high level crafting mats located in the PvP zones, so players could fight for those.

It really wouldn't take much thought to add things people can fight for. It should have been done long ago. However:

2 - the snowball effect (the rich get richer). How do you reward success in RvR without those rewards making the winning side win even more - until the losing side has NO chance at all? This is a serious challenge to the devs.

I honestly don't know how to do this. If the rewards are meaningful enough to encourage RvR, then they will unbalance the competition. You could make the rewards all consumable items (or gear which wears out), so the gains are temporary, but I don't know if that would be enough.

The only solution I can see is to run the RvR campaign for a certain time period (say - 2 months), declare a winner, then reset and go again. Run it like seasons in a team sport.

These two points you mention there are exactly the big problems that WAR is facing.  Its not easy to solve those - but I can see few diffrent ways of doing it.   To solve problem one - then it could be worth giving out some materials towards new gear for taking BO.  This would happen after the 3 mins are up (and the NPCs will come in then handing out materials in form of chest)  These materials could be used to buy epic tier gear - while the blue gear will require no such tokens.

Ornaments are increadibly stupid idea and should be removed from the game.  They keep popping up in middle of PVP and are for me gamebreaking issue that should be handled diffrently.

About your second point - This is what the underdog system needs to solve.  For me - Mythic needs to make a system that does not reward domination of one faction - but rather reward balance.  Strongest way of doing that for me would be to give out RP and influence rewards based on number of PPL taking part in each tier.  Lets say that there are 50 order players taking part in T2 - fighting 200 Destro.  This should mean that  each Order player gets 4 times as much RP and INF for doing the same things as each Destruction player.  Ok.. 4 times is alot - but you get the point. 

THis would mean that the Order players will progess faster in terms of gear and RP than destro - balancing the game out in the tier abit and making it more fun for the underdogs. 

To add abit to the RPG / PVE part.  I would love to see more quests beeing given to go gather diffrent materials for some very good - powerfull Items.  For example - a smithy could offer a quest creating an armor that requires diffrent matterials in the area - some gotten through PVE (Champion mobs on map that will ONLY drop materials if you have the quests so farming them would be of no use) and others through RVR - like taking OB and getting rewards.

There are alot of ways to do things.  What needs to happen now is to see Mythic really start to work overtime to fix the real issues - not just scratch at 1 or 2 things that more than often create more problems than they solve.

Well, let's be realistic here - this is more about offering suggestions for the next RvR game.

I see no miracles in the future for this game.