Has there been any talk of a trial?

I am not sure that a game like this would really benefit from a free trial. The place would get swarmed with trials, and in a game where there is full loot, and no levels... I forsee a huge group of trial players swarming experienced players, and taking all of their stuff. And with unlimited amounts of new trials... I don't know. Just doesn't sounds like it would be very good. Not to mention the massive gank fest that would be the starting zones.

Originally posted by Rallycart

I am not sure that a game like this would really benefit from a free trial. The place would get swarmed with trials, and in a game where there is full loot, and no levels... I forsee a huge group of trial players swarming experienced players, and taking all of their stuff. And with unlimited amounts of new trials... I don't know. Just doesn't sounds like it would be very good. Not to mention the massive gank fest that would be the starting zones.

I do not get the message.

Do you mean to say, the experienced players with developered characters are now afraid of being challenged by newborn trial members?  Or you mean experienced players will play through trial member to ambush?  Or ... why are pvp players in a pvp game fear pvp attempts from someone else, from supposing new noobs?

Do you mean to say, pvpers in an established game fear mass influx of newblood seeking to fight?

Do you mean to say a game selling itself as an open world pvp have players fearing zerg and gankfest?

Oh .. so much so for a game of pvp, that does not encourage people to pvp.

By your logic, the game should not open itself for sale, lest millions of player join the game and threaten the peaceful world of DF.

I think Rallycart did just mean the trial players would have nothing to loose. And the others risks to loose everything. You would remove the risk from the "risk vs reward".

But i would love to see the "trials" come and try  : )

I'm sorry that I cannot exactly explain why, I'm not permitted to say some things... but long story short, I know first hand that there will not be free trials any time in the near future. 

Originally posted by lisubab

Originally posted by Rallycart

I am not sure that a game like this would really benefit from a free trial. The place would get swarmed with trials, and in a game where there is full loot, and no levels... I forsee a huge group of trial players swarming experienced players, and taking all of their stuff. And with unlimited amounts of new trials... I don't know. Just doesn't sounds like it would be very good. Not to mention the massive gank fest that would be the starting zones.

 

I do not get the message.

Do you mean to say, the experienced players with developered characters are now afraid of being challenged by newborn trial members?  Or you mean experienced players will play through trial member to ambush?  Or ... why are pvp players in a pvp game fear pvp attempts from someone else, from supposing new noobs?

Do you mean to say, pvpers in an established game fear mass influx of newblood seeking to fight?

Do you mean to say a game selling itself as an open world pvp have players fearing zerg and gankfest?

Oh .. so much so for a game of pvp, that does not encourage people to pvp.

By your logic, the game should not open itself for sale, lest millions of player join the game and threaten the peaceful world of DF.

Daarco hit the nail on the head. The trial user has nothing to loose, and can easily create as many chars/accounts as he wants, and endlessly disrupt the game. Get a group of them together, and even naked they can cause some real havok. Great fun for the trial users I assume, but pretty crap for everyone else. And pissing off your established playerbase is not the best of ideas.

Originally posted by Rallycart

Originally posted by lisubab

Originally posted by Rallycart

I am not sure that a game like this would really benefit from a free trial. The place would get swarmed with trials, and in a game where there is full loot, and no levels... I forsee a huge group of trial players swarming experienced players, and taking all of their stuff. And with unlimited amounts of new trials... I don't know. Just doesn't sounds like it would be very good. Not to mention the massive gank fest that would be the starting zones.

 

I do not get the message.

Do you mean to say, the experienced players with developered characters are now afraid of being challenged by newborn trial members?  Or you mean experienced players will play through trial member to ambush?  Or ... why are pvp players in a pvp game fear pvp attempts from someone else, from supposing new noobs?

Do you mean to say, pvpers in an established game fear mass influx of newblood seeking to fight?

Do you mean to say a game selling itself as an open world pvp have players fearing zerg and gankfest?

Oh .. so much so for a game of pvp, that does not encourage people to pvp.

By your logic, the game should not open itself for sale, lest millions of player join the game and threaten the peaceful world of DF.

 

Daarco hit the nail on the head. The trial user has nothing to loose, and can easily create as many chars/accounts as he wants, and endlessly disrupt the game. Get a group of them together, and even naked they can cause some real havok. Great fun for the trial users I assume, but pretty crap for everyone else. And pissing off your established playerbase is not the best of ideas.

Does this same thing happen in EvE?  Or L2?  Or on PvP servers of EQ?

If I'm not mistaken, all those MMOs above are FFA PvP... yet they somehow figured out how to do trials.  So, what's different about DarkFall?

DarkFall has no boxed version of the game, no Trial, and no advertising.  Something from that mix has to change if DarkFall wants to experience any kind of long-term growth. 

Right up until the game launched it was always said DarkFall would have a trial.  Now that the game has launched they've decided a trial doesn't fit DarkFall?  What's changed?  It's not like they suddenly added FFA PvP into the game.  What makes all the talk about offering a Trial null and void now that the game has actually launched? 

I'm genuinely curious, as the vast majority here had to have heard some of the talk from Tasos pre-launch.  To say that offering a Free Trial wasn't a major talking point would be more than a little disingenuous. 

Originally posted by xzyax

Does this same thing happen in EvE?  Or L2?  Or on PvP servers of EQ?

If I'm not mistaken, all those MMOs above are FFA PvP... yet they somehow figured out how to do trials.  So, what's different about DarkFall?

EVE has high sec where all the noobs start, and they are not effective in the beginning ships, beginning weapons, and few skills. You can still kill naked in Darkfall. Try that in EVE. You can also stay safe in EVE, and is only dangerous below .5 space.

L2 and EQ are just laughable, as they are not full loot games. L2 you will drop a peice of equipment, but not the same thing. Also, a group of level 1s have NO chance of killing any player that is at max, or even half of max level. Once again, VERY different than Darkfall.

Did you think your statement through before you responded? Because it does not seem like you did. The problem is not the ganking, as every PvP game has that. The problem is having nothing to lose, but TONS to gain.

Originally posted by Rallycart

Originally posted by xzyax

Does this same thing happen in EvE?  Or L2?  Or on PvP servers of EQ?

If I'm not mistaken, all those MMOs above are FFA PvP... yet they somehow figured out how to do trials.  So, what's different about DarkFall?

 

EVE has high sec where all the noobs start, and they are not effective in the beginning ships, beginning weapons, and few skills. You can still kill naked in Darkfall. Try that in EVE. You can also stay safe in EVE, and is only dangerous below .5 space.

L2 and EQ are just laughable, as they are not full loot games. L2 you will drop a peice of equipment, but not the same thing. Also, a group of level 1s have NO chance of killing any player that is at max, or even half of max level. Once again, VERY different than Darkfall.

Did you think your statement through before you responded? Because it does not seem like you did. The problem is not the ganking, as every PvP game has that. The problem is having nothing to lose, but TONS to gain.

I noticed you didn't mention anything about all the pre-launch talk from Tasos and Aventurine about offering a Trial... why was that?

Did the game change from what they thought it would be just before launch?  Why wasn't there any opposition to them offering a Free Trial before launch? 

Yes, there are differences from DarkFall to the other MMOs I mentioned... who would have figured that out on their own?  Good thing you pointed it out.  Thanks for that. 

The point is, other MMOs have figured out how to do trials.  UO has free trials, Shadowbane had free trials.  I know, I know... you'll point out how those 2 are different as well. 

Edit: 

Thought I would expand on your premise of:

"The problem is having nothing to lose, but TONS to gain."

I disagree that this would be an over-whelming problem if Free Trials were implemented.  Just a few questions for everyone to think about on the subject.

Is it an over-whelming problem now?

What prevents it from being so?

Is it an illegal activity and players are worried about being banned?

If it would be such a successful activity for Free Trial players, then why aren't paying players doing it on the same scale?

Is it a problem 1 vs. 1?

What makes players believe that hordes of Free Trial members will all band together?

Wouldn't the vast majority of Free Trial players behave exactly like new paying players?

If there is such a "gain" for the Free Trial members... wouldn't they have to subscribe in order to benefit from that "gain"?

Originally posted by xzyax

I noticed you didn't mention anything about all the pre-launch talk from Tasos and Aventurine about offering a Trial... why was that?

Because I did not read the pre-launch talk? And I have not seen anything about a trial? And because I give two craps about either one?

Did the game change from what they thought it would be just before launch?  Why wasn't there any opposition to them offering a Free Trial before launch? 

Where did I say that the community was in opposition? However, the ESTABLISHED community, will in fact be unhappy about it, I promise you. Things sound like a good idea until you put them in, and realize the ramifications.

Yes, there are differences from DarkFall to the other MMOs I mentioned... who would have figured that out on their own?  Good thing you pointed it out.  Thanks for that. 

The point is, other MMOs have figured out how to do trials.  UO has free trials, Shadowbane had free trials.  I know, I know... you'll point out how those 2 are different as well. 

We are right back to free trial players having the ability to slaughter vets that actually have gear. I have never played UO or Shadowbane, so I cannot speak for them. However, something tells me that they dont work like Darkfall with a full loot, any naked noob is viable in combat. Your whole point was that EVE, EQ and L2 were capable of it, so why cant Darkfall? Well, because they do not opperate anything like Darkfall. Why can't you put dog sperm into a cat, and get it pregnant? Because they are different, and it does not work that way. I didn't think it would be difficult to see it.

Allowing a trial, where all the trial people were bunched together, segregated from the rest, or at least very limited, OR were limited in their looting, then it might work. However, dumping them in to the general population would be a very bad business decision.

Why not offer a seperate server specificaly for trial players, much like a test server. That way people can try the game for a week or two and not interfere with the live game economy. Everyones happy, the devs get more exposure for their game, the current population is happy cause all the nubs wont be a threat to there superiority. easy fix IMHO.

Originally posted by Rallycart

Originally posted by xzyax

I noticed you didn't mention anything about all the pre-launch talk from Tasos and Aventurine about offering a Trial... why was that?

Because I did not read the pre-launch talk? And I have not seen anything about a trial? And because I give two craps about either one?

Did the game change from what they thought it would be just before launch?  Why wasn't there any opposition to them offering a Free Trial before launch? 

Where did I say that the community was in opposition? However, the ESTABLISHED community, will in fact be unhappy about it, I promise you. Things sound like a good idea until you put them in, and realize the ramifications.

Yes, there are differences from DarkFall to the other MMOs I mentioned... who would have figured that out on their own?  Good thing you pointed it out.  Thanks for that. 

The point is, other MMOs have figured out how to do trials.  UO has free trials, Shadowbane had free trials.  I know, I know... you'll point out how those 2 are different as well. 

We are right back to free trial players having the ability to slaughter vets that actually have gear. I have never played UO or Shadowbane, so I cannot speak for them. However, something tells me that they dont work like Darkfall with a full loot, any naked noob is viable in combat. Your whole point was that EVE, EQ and L2 were capable of it, so why cant Darkfall? Well, because they do not opperate anything like Darkfall. Why can't you put dog sperm into a cat, and get it pregnant? Because they are different, and it does not work that way. I didn't think it would be difficult to see it.

 

Allowing a trial, where all the trial people were bunched together, segregated from the rest, or at least very limited, OR were limited in their looting, then it might work. However, dumping them in to the general population would be a very bad business decision.

I could go along with that version of a Trial.

It doesn't matter to me how the details are worked out... that is for Aventurine to figure out.  I'm just advocating that a Free Trial would be a benefit to the game in increased population. 

The Devs for the game talked about a Free Trial for DarkFall for close to 8 years... I don't remember hearing any opposition to the idea of it.  When the game finally does come out, they decide to not offer the Free Trial.  Some of us are asking why, and there are a number who respond as you've done... saying that a Free Trial wouldn't work in DarkFall.

So, I'm just saying that it seems convienent for some (granted some players are new to following DarkFall) to change their tune on the subject now. 

Ask any of the long-term fans of the game if they remember the discussion.  Darth, daarco, downtoearth, javac, xpiher... they should be able to confirm that there wasn't any opposition to the idea of Free Trials before launch.

Originally posted by xzyax

What prevents it from being so?

Not sure where this is directed, so I wont answer it.

Is it an illegal activity and players are worried about being banned?

Nope, nothing illegal about it that I am aware of.

If it would be such a successful activity for Free Trial players, then why aren't paying players doing it on the same scale?

Because they paid for the game, and are typically caring more about their character than the trial player. Trial players, especially ones that don't plan on actually buying the game, don't mind making enemies and pissing people off, because in a few days they will be lost into the animosity that is the internet. There is a reason that spam, stupid comments, and retarded people spike when trials go live on a game. Hell, people make new EVE accounts just to spam Rookie Chat with stupid remarks just because they can.

Is it a problem 1 vs. 1?

I would believe not.

What makes players believe that hordes of Free Trial members will all band together?

Trust me, they would. Just in the same way people band together anywhere else. They are all new, and want to make a certain objective. If they plan to stick with the game, that is fine and good. The problem being, like I said, a good chunk of MMO communities want nothing more than to mess up things for others. Also, there are a LOT of Darkfall haters out there. It would not shack me to see entire guilds run to Darkfall for a night or two just to screw things up and laugh about it.

Wouldn't the vast majority of Free Trial players behave exactly like new paying players?

Vast majority? I don't know about that. But the majority would, yes.

If there is such a "gain" for the Free Trial members... wouldn't they have to subscribe in order to benefit from that "gain"?

Well, that depends on what you mean. Technically, should they not subscribe, it would just be a loss to everyone, which is not great either. However, I would assume that someone might actually decide to subscribe if they made off with a good haul. However, that brings a bad mentality. Making new accounts until you hit the jackpot by screwing someone else and THEN jumping into the game with money. 

The trial might attract new players, but to shun and piss off your existing playerbase is never a good idea. Look at SWG.

Originally posted by cblodgett

Why not offer a seperate server specificaly for trial players, much like a test server. That way people can try the game for a week or two and not interfere with the live game economy. Everyones happy, the devs get more exposure for their game, the current population is happy cause all the nubs wont be a threat to there superiority. easy fix IMHO.

Yup, that would work for me too.

I'm not concerned about how they implement it.  That's for the Devs. to figure out.  I'm just an advocate of some sort of a Free Trial.  Have been since I started posting in this section over a year ago. 

At first it was a given that they would have one (like they said)... now it seems to have some opposition.  For me, that seems odd that some would change their stance on the subject now that the game is released. 

THAT is the part I haven't figured out yet.  What has changed about DarkFall for them to NOT want a Free Trial? 

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by cblodgett

Why not offer a seperate server specificaly for trial players, much like a test server. That way people can try the game for a week or two and not interfere with the live game economy. Everyones happy, the devs get more exposure for their game, the current population is happy cause all the nubs wont be a threat to there superiority. easy fix IMHO.

 

Yup, that would work for me too.

 

I'm not concerned about how they implement it.  That's for the Devs. to figure out.  I'm just an advocate of some sort of a Free Trial.  Have been since I started posting in this section over a year ago. 

At first it was a given that they would have one (like they said)... now it seems to have some opposition.  For me, that seems odd that some would change their stance on the subject now that the game is released. 

THAT is the part I haven't figured out yet.  What has changed about DarkFall for them to NOT want a Free Trial? 

What has changed is the fact that the guys who advocated the free trial before, now have something to lose. And everyone in a PvP games hates to lose.  A hoard of new blood in the game that a free trial would bring, reguardless of the players intentions, is a threat to their superiority because no mater how good you are at a game, there is always someone better or smarter out there. 

I for one would love to try this game out, reguardless of how much bad press I have seen on it. I'm the type of person who like to judge a game for myself. Not judge it because 5 out of 10 people said it sucked. Im also the kind of person who wont commit to a game unless I can give it a test drive first.

Im not sure how the server(s) works in this game, is it like EVE with one server for everyone? or does it have several server options for different time zones and what not? Would it be that big of a deal for the Devs to impliment another server for trial players or maybe even a combined trial/test server?

Originally posted by Rallycart

Originally posted by xzyax

What prevents it from being so?

Not sure where this is directed, so I wont answer it.

Is it an illegal activity and players are worried about being banned?

Nope, nothing illegal about it that I am aware of.

If it would be such a successful activity for Free Trial players, then why aren't paying players doing it on the same scale?

Because they paid for the game, and are typically caring more about their character than the trial player. Trial players, especially ones that don't plan on actually buying the game, don't mind making enemies and pissing people off, because in a few days they will be lost into the animosity that is the internet. There is a reason that spam, stupid comments, and retarded people spike when trials go live on a game. Hell, people make new EVE accounts just to spam Rookie Chat with stupid remarks just because they can.

Is it a problem 1 vs. 1?

I would believe not.

What makes players believe that hordes of Free Trial members will all band together?

Trust me, they would. Just in the same way people band together anywhere else. They are all new, and want to make a certain objective. If they plan to stick with the game, that is fine and good. The problem being, like I said, a good chunk of MMO communities want nothing more than to mess up things for others. Also, there are a LOT of Darkfall haters out there. It would not shack me to see entire guilds run to Darkfall for a night or two just to screw things up and laugh about it.

Wouldn't the vast majority of Free Trial players behave exactly like new paying players?

Vast majority? I don't know about that. But the majority would, yes.

If there is such a "gain" for the Free Trial members... wouldn't they have to subscribe in order to benefit from that "gain"?

Well, that depends on what you mean. Technically, should they not subscribe, it would just be a loss to everyone, which is not great either. However, I would assume that someone might actually decide to subscribe if they made off with a good haul. However, that brings a bad mentality. Making new accounts until you hit the jackpot by screwing someone else and THEN jumping into the game with money. 

 

The trial might attract new players, but to shun and piss off your existing playerbase is never a good idea. Look at SWG.

First off... thanks for having a civil discourse on the topic at hand. 
 

The question above that you weren't sure about wasn't worded very well.

What I was getting at asking was if hordes of naked players banding together to kill geared players is a problem now?

What prevents it from being a problem now, and what steps could be implemented into a Free Trial system to prevent it from being a problem when/if Trials are implemented.

You've already touched on a few ideas.

They could make Free Trial members only able to loot 1 item from a paying player.  Or perhaps none at all, if even the idea of 1 item being looted doesn't work.

A seperate server for Free Trials would work if they got a decent amount on it.  Perhaps shrink the size of the world ot a single island?  That way even if there were only a couple hundred online at a time it would still work. 

If a totally seperate server isn't viable then perhaps an isolated island in the existing servers would work.

The how isn't that big of a deal to me... I just think it would be better for them in the long-term with a Trial than without.

On your last comment about SWG... it wasn't a Free Trial that pissed off the existing playerbase in SWG... as you probably know.  (I too miss my pre-CU SWG MMO).  We aren't talking about a drastic re-vamping of game mechanics here.  Just an addition of more players into the game.    More players in a PvP-centric MMO is usually a GOOD thing. 

I started playing Darkfall three days ago and im loving it so far.  Last night I joined a clan, and they gave me a mount to follow them to there Alliances city.  There they let me keep the mount, and gave me a tour of the city and a lot of help tips and info.  WIthin a half hour of arriving at the city, it was under siege from an opposing alliance.  The attackers were casting a spell called launch, which propels them high into the air and over the city walls so then they can land in the city and start wreaking havoc. It was a  really fun experience,( although I was running for my life and at one point shamelessly hiding on a rooftop) and I look forward to many more of them, it lasted about three hours before they were repelled.  My clan said that the previous night they had come in from the port side of the city in ships and attacked the city itself not just the players inside.  I'm looking forward to a counter offensive tonight.

All that aside.  Im a newbie in DF, and for the first hour or so I tried to get in a hit or two on the guys that were attacking us, and it was completely useless.  I made myself useful by running around and trying to revive my clan members if they went down, but if the attackers saw me they quickly dispatched me with a spell or two, or maybe one swipe of a giant axe.   There is zero chance that even twenty or thirty naked newbies banded together could come in darkfall and even make a splash against any kind of experienced fighting force.  Sure they might find a straggler by himself in the wilderness MAYBE, but most people move in groups or at least pairs if they have any sense at all, in which case the trial players would experience death by AOE firing squad.

I would be worried about the starting areas being targeted by experienced players as a way to get some newbie target practice for there spells and arrows before I would ever be worried about a zerg of naked trials.  I'd love to see a thousand new players start tommorrow.  But I wouldn't doubt that they'd have to figure out a way to deal with some skill guys picking them off for sport and breaking them in the hard way.

Originally posted by cblodgett

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by cblodgett

Why not offer a seperate server specificaly for trial players, much like a test server. That way people can try the game for a week or two and not interfere with the live game economy. Everyones happy, the devs get more exposure for their game, the current population is happy cause all the nubs wont be a threat to there superiority. easy fix IMHO.

 

Yup, that would work for me too.

 

I'm not concerned about how they implement it.  That's for the Devs. to figure out.  I'm just an advocate of some sort of a Free Trial.  Have been since I started posting in this section over a year ago. 

At first it was a given that they would have one (like they said)... now it seems to have some opposition.  For me, that seems odd that some would change their stance on the subject now that the game is released. 

THAT is the part I haven't figured out yet.  What has changed about DarkFall for them to NOT want a Free Trial? 

 

What has changed is the fact that the guys who advocated the free trial before, now have something to lose. And everyone in a PvP games hates to lose.  A hoard of new blood in the game that a free trial would bring, reguardless of the players intentions, is a threat to their superiority because no mater how good you are at a game, there is always someone better or smarter out there. 

I for one would love to try this game out, reguardless of how much bad press I have seen on it. I'm the type of person who like to judge a game for myself. Not judge it because 5 out of 10 people said it sucked. Im also the kind of person who wont commit to a game unless I can give it a test drive first.

Im not sure how the server(s) works in this game, is it like EVE with one server for everyone? or does it have several server options for different time zones and what not? Would it be that big of a deal for the Devs to impliment another server for trial players or maybe even a combined trial/test server?

I agree with you on all points.
 

As for the server configuration... there are 2 servers. 

The EU server is located in Germany and launched on Feb. 25th, 2009.

The NA server is located in California and launched on July 13th, 2009.

Transfers (for those that want them) are supposed to begin for the first time sometime this month.

Well, maybe things have massively changed now. Back in the first month or so of Darkfall, the only thing you heard about was naked players ganking people for their gear. It was constant. If that has been addressed, then maybe I am a bit off base. But, it used to be a big problem, and I just see a free trial where they get released into the general public as a worsening of that problem if it still exists.

Just a thought, but maybe they could make it so you had to sign up for the free trial with a credit card, and they limit 1 trial per card. Once the trial expires, you have the option to buy the game and continue playing, or that's it, your time is done. I can see this working as long as AV didn't automatically charge after the trial is over. I'm sure a lot of existing players would grief the newbies on trial, but hey, that's just a welcome to DF, and a test to see  if they truly belong!