I wish to open the topic of death penalties for discussion, I know this has been done a shed load of times over the past years, but it's something that is at the fore front of my mind at the moment and it's something I want to talk about.

I have been playing MMO's and online games for well over 10 years, and in all online games I have played I have always been the leader, always the one to organize things , build websites, plan attacks and plot courses of the players under me.

In all the games I have played which is a long list, and over the past 6 or so years I have noticed a disturbing trend in terms of death, back in the early days if you died you almost always lost something of value, exp, money in your pocket, items off your back, your mount or a combination of the above, the point was that death hurt, as a result any time anyone went into combat, they knew fine well what the cost was going to be if they lost, or won.

Games were emotional experiences, walking through that forest you know is close to enemy territory takes on a whole new live when you know that if your found you could lose the shirt off your back, as a result all of your senses are heightened, you have total focus on the game and every little noise coming from it, today they call it total emersion and its true you were totally sucked into the game, aware of every little thing moving, and when you finally and inevitably got pulled into combat, every muscle in your body would be bouncing as your brain dumped a bucket load of adrenaline into your system to cope with the coming battle.

I know that all sounds a bit dramatic, but it's all true, when death has a penalty, the above is only a fraction of the emotional roller coaster that your body and mind would go through while in combat.

Bring the years forward to today, and the game scape has changed beyond all recognition, death penalty for most games is a think of the past, it's something developers have deemed as bad for business, but I think they have it all wrong, when they compare death to older games, and then hold up the player numbers with games like wow, what their failing to account for is the time period involved.

There are more people playing games today, than have ever played games in the past ten years combined, as a result of the massive influx of new gamers and new demographics developers are now scrambling to cut away things from games that they feel will deter all these new gamers.

Sadly to me they are cutting away some of the prime cuts of the games they make, namely death penalties.

You have all slammed DarkFall, as being a failure, and yet it's still got players, and not only that but some of the longest running guilds are playing it and making it their own, sure it has flaws, but it's clear for all to see that with its rule set it's clearly offering something that enough people still want and I praise it for that, take darkfalls rules and put them in something like wow and you have a ground breaking game.

EvE online is another amazing and mega sucessful game, with very heavy death penalty, or so it seems, anyone who has actually played the game for longer than 14 days will show you that not only do they still have sjips left but their making money, and at the same time not being shy with PvP, and it's a credit to CCP and their insurences  and other systems that help reduce the blow of death.

I would like to hold up CCP as a Perfect example of how death should be handled in games, when you die you lose everything on your ships its scattered into space and you escape pod home, where if your not stupid your insurence company has a new shiny ship waiting for you.

Now take games that or on the horizon, Jumpgate Evolution, can easily be looked at as a WoW version of EvE, but with its pruposed death penalty, and no cargo loss, haulers will be taking goods, or miners will be mining and then instead of fighting to protect their ore, thy will simply smile as an enemy comes into range and starts blasting them, what's a small repair bill when it saves you 5 minutes of flight time back to your station.

Developers either need to waken up to the insanity of it all and start offering us PvP servers with death being meaningful or stop making games aimed at 9 year olds who cant handle losing their little shiny sword.

A death penalty is a game mechanic. It is a rule that is part of a game. I don't see MMOs as games anymore, nor do I see those who play them as gamers. When the importance of game mechanics such as travel, death, gear acquisition, and meaningful character progression are either eliminated or sold out of game as a transaction, MMOs become something else entirely.

When I think of a game, I think of engaging in an activity where my skill is matched up against another player's or the game mechanics/rules themselves. I stand a chance to lose. If you cannot lose, you cannot win. If neither is possible, one could argue that you are not playing a game. 

Take the game out of the MMO and what you see is what you get: entertainment; gamers need not apply. 

 something is clearly nice about darkfall because it aggroed guild that in lot of case are 10 year old +

they got scout(guild)in most major mmo and yet darkfall was the one they stopped at

Originally posted by Yavln

Developers either need to waken up to the insanity of it all and start offering us PvP servers with death being meaningful or stop making games aimed at 9 year olds who cant handle losing their little shiny sword.

why? What is the incentive.

The incentive is to attract and retain customers with more money than 9 year olds.

Originally posted by Malcanis

The incentive is to attract and retain customers with more money than 9 year olds.

Aaaaaand...where is the market for that?

Or do you really believe that all 10+ million of the people that play WoW are around the age of 9?

You want a niche game like that?  Make one. 

I agree, harsher death penalties would bring some challenge back into games. But given the current state of things, and the overwhelming influence of a certain wildly succesful game, it remains unlikely we will be seeing such implemented. The current crop of *cough* WOW *cough* players seem to do nothing but demand nerfs, and to actually loose something to death would be a major reason for them to initiate forum drama...

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Yavln

Developers either need to waken up to the insanity of it all and start offering us PvP servers with death being meaningful or stop making games aimed at 9 year olds who cant handle losing their little shiny sword.

 

why? What is the incentive.

Because DP is 1337 and the harsher it is the more 1337 you become

>.>

I can understand the appeal of death penalties.  They do, to an extent, add a touch more "excitement" to the game  that features it.  However, in the large scheme of things, death penalties are far more uncommon than common through the entire gaming realm.  Honestly, think about it.  Think back to a LARGE portion of games, before even MMOs existed.  When you died, and were out of lives, a screen would pop up.  This screen would ask you... "Would you like to continue? ... PRESS START".  This is a common theme found in gaming.  So the whole... "Death penalties are dying out" gripe is a false one at best.  In all honesty, other than a small few games, if you died, you were able to continue on, try again, or re-do it, without any adverse effects.

Yes, some games, a small few in comparison, made it hurt if you died.  But in retrospect, few did this throughout all of gaming.  Failing to complete your task is enough of a failure.  There is no need to rub it in your face that you were not able to succeed with the task at hand.  Adding insult to injury in not necessary and does nothing, in the long run, but to help deter people from trying again and powering through the difficult portions.

I disagree about the whole death penalty thing. You're basically talking about death penalties from PvP, and things like that just encourage gank squads. I'd rather not be forced to group up with a bunch kids or jerks in a game. If you're going to claim losing gear is realistic or that it gives death a meaning, well then why don't you ask for death to be permanent. Now that's a death penalty I'd advocate for, because then people will start showing a little more respect and manners to people, and not hide behind anonymity so much. You see, full loot pvp doesn't phase those who've played a while, because they have reserves stored in their bank. It also doesn't phase those in a good guild, that can easily replace that gear.

If there isn't permanent death, then there might as well be no death penalty, because they just aren't fun any other way.

Originally posted by tensspotting

 I mean no disrespect but I would rather be a l337 asshole in a game like Darkfall with arguably outdated graphics 

 

than this

 

 

 

 

I mean that's just embarrassing, I am seriously not being sarcastic or getting my rocks off at other's expense.....its just weird to me  

It is Sgt Frog with Asmodian wings :( I made it!!!!!!
You hurt my feelings...owchi :(

Personally I love the idea of death penalties and corpse looting but I have many friends and guildmates who will not even consider a game if they hear player looting is involved. Most of them do not understand how different these type games are and why those mechanics are in the game.

In gear driven games like WoW, where someone might spend days/weeks farming for a certain item or EQ, where someone might spend weeks/months for an item, the idea of having those items looted by the first ganker to come along is a huge turn off. I played everyday for 9 months straight to get my clerics water sprinkler and I wont lie, I would cry like biatch if someone ever looted it.

In skill based games like EVE and DF, the gear you lose is typically crafted and most players have back up sets in the bank or hangar. In EVE I would lose 3-4 rifters a night during faction warfare but when I docked I would come out equipped in the identical ship/setup that I lost 30 seconds prior. Both in EVE and DF, your characters main strengths are not in your gear/ships (unlike WoW) but in your skills, which cannot be looted.

In order to have a game that allows player looting, you have to design a game based around a skill system or some other system that does not so heavily rely on gear as the main strength of your character. Then you have to educate those casual players that think player looting = losing their purple EPICS, so that they understand losing a piece of gear is not the end of the world. Even then, most of those players wont try it because there are plenty of games on the market that offer them cool rewards with zero risk, like a penguin for making a b.net account. You cant win against the penguin!

Originally posted by Malcanis

The incentive is to attract and retain customers with more money than 9 year olds.

A 9 year old's parents money, spends the same as yours

Originally posted by Murashu

Personally I love the idea of death penalties and corpse looting but I have many friends and guildmates who will not even consider a game if they hear player looting is involved. Most of them do not understand how different these type games are and why those mechanics are in the game.

 

In gear driven games like WoW, where someone might spend days/weeks farming for a certain item or EQ, where someone might spend weeks/months for an item, the idea of having those items looted by the first ganker to come along is a huge turn off. I played everyday for 9 months straight to get my clerics water sprinkler and I wont lie, I would cry like biatch if someone ever looted it.

 

In skill based games like EVE and DF, the gear you lose is typically crafted and most players have back up sets in the bank or hangar. In EVE I would lose 3-4 rifters a night during faction warfare but when I docked I would come out equipped in the identical ship/setup that I lost 30 seconds prior. Both in EVE and DF, your characters main strengths are not in your gear/ships (unlike WoW) but in your skills, which cannot be looted.

 

In order to have a game that allows player looting, you have to design a game based around a skill system or some other system that does not so heavily rely on gear as the main strength of your character. Then you have to educate those casual players that think player looting = losing their purple EPICS, so that they understand losing a piece of gear is not the end of the world. Even then, most of those players wont try it because there are plenty of games on the market that offer them cool rewards with zero risk, like a penguin for making a b.net account. You cant win against the penguin!

Well if gear doesn't mean anything, then what's the detterent in losing it? I don't see the heart throbbing excitement in losing my gear the OP describes if I can just teleport back and put on a back up set that requires little effort of obtaining. That's no more of a death penalty than a corpse run from WoW or Vanguard. A real death penalty would be permanent death, because then people really would be careful, mind their mouths, and stop acting like retards.

I agree that failing to complete your task and the time it took trying is penalty enough. However the first time I saw people getting killed on purpose to save time travelling made me miss some sort of significant death penalty other than task failure or lost time. Eventually I got sucked into dying on purpose as well but I felt dirty everytime i did it.  I guess to me it made death look like a joke and when death is a joke, get ready for the fearless clowns who cause wipes.

It boils down to "What do you want to do in a game?"

Do you want to PVP?  Play a FPS or an RTS.    ...or a MMORPG with instanced PVP if you want a lot of non-skill factors mucking up the gameplay (and you do, if you're not a skilled gamer.)  (MMORPGs also work if progression matters more to you than skill-based competition)

Do you want to spend a huge chunk of your gameplay recouping any losses or building up a stockpile, and then PVP occasionally?  Play a MMORPG with heavy death penalty.

If the "recoup" activity is fun enough, the death penalty game might be alright.  EVE's missions are still interesting (at day #6 of playing) so alternating between them for income and PVPing isn't a terrible concept for a game.  But it's not very PVP-intensive, so if PVP was the only thing you cared about EVE wouldn't be the game for you.

Also:

• It's less fun to be stabbed in the groin than slapped in the face.
• It's less fun to wreck a car than to break a glass (losing one costs you less time than the other.)

Death penalty must exist, but it should only be as harsh as is necessary for gameplay purposes.

Originally posted by nate1980 

Well if gear doesn't mean anything, then what's the detterent in losing it? I don't see the heart throbbing excitement in losing my gear the OP describes if I can just teleport back and put on a back up set that requires little effort of obtaining. That's no more of a death penalty than a corpse run from WoW or Vanguard. A real death penalty would be permanent death, because then people really would be careful, mind their mouths, and stop acting like retards.

Player looting would never work in a game like WoW or VG for the reasons I posted in my first thread. That doesnt mean they cant add some form of death penalty for gear driven games. VG originally had a death penalty including corpse runs but they removed them when the big shift in "the vision" occurred. I loved EQs system and wish more games would use it, but I dont see death penalties coming back except in niche games.

Most skill based games offered player looting in the past but look at FE that just launched. It is skill based, has plenty of PvP, no death penalty and no player looting.

 I have to agree with the OP. My fondest MMO memories were of Ultima Online (pre T2A) while fighting.  It didn't matter if you were fighting a monster or another player, the thrill was there of knowing that if you miss time a bandage or heal spell/potion and died there was a chance you were getting looted before you got back to the corpse. Yes the penalty was harsh but it made the fight that much more satisfying. Strangely I didn't like Darkfall at all.

It does feel to me that today there is no real thrill in PvP or even PvE. Sure you may get an xp penalty and a little item damage, but does that truly feel like a penalty to anyone? I would much rather that happen than lose my "insert name here" sword of "insert name here". Wouldn't you?

On the flip I do understand that loosing items does get frustrating to people that don't take or feel they need to take the time to learn to truly play. If you were in the companies shoes and knew that you could offer light death penalties and keep 600k subs or offer "UO" (for lack of better term) style death and only have 200k subs.  These numbers are not real, just an example.

Originally posted by Malcanis

The incentive is to attract and retain customers with more money than 9 year olds.

You are arguing on a completely emotional level. Really? 9 year olds? You are telling me that some 9 year old's allowance is running the juggernaut of popular mmo's at this point?

If I were to look at popular mmo's I would say that most of them have a far more lenient death penalty. I highly doubt that all of those mmo's are being supported by the mercurial whims of a 9 year old.

It seems to me that the emphasis of these financially successful games is for lighter death penalties. Since we know that there are a lot of "adults" playing one would have to ask what games are they playing that have have these heavy death penalties?

Of the adults I know who play games, and of the smaller sub section that play mmo's, the majority of them play World of Warcraft. And we know that the death penalty is rather light there.

You'd have to show that the mmo genre was financially suffering in the statement that I quoted in order for them to "wake up" and change their ways. But the genre is not financially suffering when it comes to the successful games that exist.

You might not like the games that are out that are successful but I don't see the need for game companies to change given that the games that are successful are angled toward more casual players.

XP loss. Aion got that one right. If dying means youll need to grind 2-3 hr to make up for lost xp then youre really going to want to avoid that. Skill points usually arent lost so theres even an advantage to dying once in a while.

I dont agree with permadeath tho, its one thing if you die from a mistake but theres such a thing as luck. You cant have deep char advancement under that system. Looting corpses its not as bad as people think, full loot sucks alright (it makes gear unimportant ) but when its based on chance its usually cool.