Originally posted by Karahandras

considering lotro has 5% of people that have bought the game and stayed playing for any amount of time and as far as i am aware those numbers are still dropping, i disagree with this statement 'MMO fans wouldn’t have stuck with it this long had it not done a few things right.'

and therefore disagree with it's place as number 1 especially since war and aoc aren't even included in the list(war has what twice the subs and from what i hear aoc is starting to catch up with the likes of lotro and eq2), for some reason this site does seem to be overyly biased towards lotro and maybe even any named game with the previews of swtor and even sto in mind

really should have title the article my favourite 10 mmo's since wow

You are mistaken.  Turbine recently announced subscription numbers are increasing world wide for LOTRO.  It is considered the second most popular MMO in the U.S. behind WoW (Guild Wars isn't an MMO and F2P doesn't count).  I would put AoC and WAR in the SWG club of below 100k subscibers in North America.  In most MMO's you only get one chance to make a good impression.  If you launch in buggy and bad state you will not retain subs.  Most people won't give your game a second chance either.  AoC has been doing alot of improving on their game but the subs aren't increasing.  We gamers are a fickle bunch.  Once we're burned, we don't go back for more.  I'm looking at you, SOE!

Originally posted by ebonfire

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by ebonfire

I read this before I headed out, and what I have to say has been eating at me all day.  I am by no mean an EQ2 fanboy as I've only played it for about 3 months total over the last two years, and I understand the desire to adhere to the time line, so with that being said...

You talk about how the MMO landscape has changed, and I think that reflects more in EQ2 than any game I can think of.  It launched a few weeks before WoW, and has since released 5 expansions, almost being marketed as a release each time.  What started out being very group centric, unforgiving at times, is now a shadow of what it was designed to be when it launched.

I think that the EQ2 you can log in a and play now is most definitely a post WoW reaction to how the industry has changed.. the bulk of the game you have now is post-WoW.

 

Just one more time...

EQ2 launched before World of Warcraft.

The article was about the top 10 games launched after World of Warcraft.

 

First, you obviously didn't participate in the train wreck that was Vanguard at launch, or you wouldn't be giving it a free pass right now. 

My point was simply that EQ2 also launched early (a few weeks before WoW), grossly missed the marked, was reworked with a ton of content added after WoW was released, and managed to survive in the shadow of WoW in a way that really reflects on what kind of game it has become.  If you were writing from an intellectual standpoint, and not from entertainment standpoint, then we might have a decent conversation about the true transgressions of the industry after WoW was released.

Apologies if I came off snippy, but if you click through the thread we'd been over the launch dates about twice a page ;)

You have a valid point about EQ2 in a general sense, yes, it's clearly a much different game and, yes, surviving against WoW had a lot to do with that. It's an interesting thing to consider.

For the purposes of the article though, if I'd made one exception, I'd have had to include every single game anyone thought of before WoW because there would be some argument (I mean, honestly, you can make a pretty good case for WoW's influence on UO too).

So, yes, I agree. Interesting point, interesting debate and something we'll file away for future articles, but within the confines of this one, that was a can of worms I wanted to avoid.

I agree that Lord of the Rings should be #1 on the list. I actually left Lord of the Rings when it first came out after reaching level 45, but just started playing again a couple of months ago after playing Warhammer, Vanguard, Aion, and AOC in between. With Warhammer, it was fantastic for the first 2 months and quickly fizzled toward end game as the player population also fizzled. Vanguard had enormous potential, but I was still noticing a lot of performance and graphics glitches. I left I believe about a year ago, I forget. AOC had fantastic graphics, but the zones being instanced just killed it for me and I didnt feel drawn into the storyline. Played Aion Beta and a little bit after release, but I just had no sense of excitement and the lack of real exploration turned me off.  I just couldn't imagine going through the exact same 25 levels each and every time you wanted to try a new class. Lord of the Rings  was by far the most polished, best story, excellent graphics, great community, and nice variety between the classes and the starter areas. The game is not perfect, but it is by far the best bridge until hopefully some success with Star Wars or Star Trek. I also saw a post or two about LOTRO being a ghost town.  I dont see that at all. On Landroval, the RP server, it is actually quite busy and I never have trouble finding a group.

This whole thread is Danas opinion against hundreds of others.  Of course most of you disagree.  Did you think everyone here would have Danas exact same opinion for MMOs?  Half of you didnt read the whole article or you wouldnt post the errornous bullshit about dates and subs and yap yap.  Then Z throws his dick down with MORE sub numbers and helicopter comparison JUST like in a thread I was in 2 seconds ago.

Who gives a shit if VG is listed and WAR isnt?  WAH .. so go post your own Top 10 article (thread), as I wait for the dude with 50 accounts and a guild that gives their members computers, to come in and throw down too..

Part of me was happy to again see LOTRO on the top of another list as far as mmo's are concerned but as a few others have stated club penguin makes me wonder if I'm really all that excited about making this list as when I first started and anticipated we would land the number one spot yet again, but at any rate GO TURBINE!

The thing about debating opinion is that you can never win.

His top 10 games got some extra press but really we all know that there isn't a person alive who all ten of those games would appeal to. He's covering lots of micro genres in that list including Free MMOs, pay MMOs, kids games, etc.  Unless he's sat down and actually played dozens of these games in depth its pretty impossible to make an accurate assessment of them.

If he were comparing big release pay to play mmos to each other and had played each of them all the way through to end game then I might be more apt to take the opinions seriously.

Club Penguin? Wizard 101? Maple Story? Get the fuck outta' here. And put the crack pipe down before you go.

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Originally posted by Perfection66

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Originally posted by Swoogie

First off, LotRO deserves that #1 spot
With that aside, I pretty much agree with tho whole list but I do think EQ2 should be up there. I know i launced about 2 weeks before WoW but it wasnt ready. SoE learned a lot and worked hard on their game to make it where it is today (kinda like Vanguard imo). I think EQ2 could have been a notible exception given it is right there with WoWs launch
 

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LOTRO doesnt have 3.5 million subs in Asia like Aion does. Hell Aion even has surpassed the game in West since release, so why isnt Aion considered number 1? All the numbers suggest it should be.

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Because AION still has 0 subscribers in the west. People playing with their free month aren't subs...yet. That should have been common sense.

And for the record, I doubt AION will get anywhere near LOTROs subs in the west.

 My question for the author is where do you happen to get the information on customer retention and subscribers? I don't know of any company handing that kind of info out in anything other than financial reports, which aren't exactly up to the minute on how a player base is doing?

I do however like how an unknown like Atlantica was included. I'd like to see a top 10 list of MMO's no one knows about if there hasn't been one already.

Ok..  this sites gone down the stink hole.. and its going down even quicker.

Not only do we have troll posts by the members of this site to contend with, NOW we have to put up with troll posts from the MMORPG.com staff?

really man, to rank Aion where you ranked it and to put all those other mmo's that you apparantly based your opinion from something other than first hand experience.. this HAS to be some sort of troll.  I mean wtf is Fallen Earth doing on that list, and Age of Conan isnt?  Champions Onine? WArhammer?  Hello??  But you listed Atlantica and Pretty Penguin or whatever the hell that game is..  ya Im questioning your merit on this.

Just look at the controversey you started,  does anyone.. I mean anyone but yourself agree with what you wrote?  Gratz and further deteriorating this site into pure rubbish, Dana

Nice list. My only addition would be to find a spot for DDO. DDO had a rocky start but going F2P , and having a lot of modules under it's belt, has really reenergized the game and it is filled with people now.  I just recently started playing it a month ago, and I have been having a lot of fun.

Originally posted by solareus

Woah woah woah, first 1up's review of Aion and now this article with LotrO at #1 ... can't beleive people are finally getting things right  ! Good read , though Aion doesn't belong there. 

You just hate AION don't you?  Look I am having a blast playing AION and I enjoy LOTRO too.  I have a sub to both but won't play LOTRO much till SoM comes out because the game was getting stale.  SoM is great....I saw it at PaX.  A lot of our kin mates (including the leader) came over to play AION and are having fun.  But a lot will head back for SoM....some won't.  AION belongs here because it has been changed to fit the western players a bit and it has been very well received.  Yes it has toothing problems, but all MMO's go through that (even LOTRO had some server issues a while back). 

How can anyone possibly take this seriously when you put LOTRO as #1?

This has fanboi written all over it. Granted that it's a completely subjective criteria (top 10... to what?! Be a game?), it's still kind of... well... retarded.

I couldn't stand LOTRO. They copypastad WoW with Tolkein lore... great job turbine. That has to be the LEAST original thing to do ever. They stacked unoriginality on top of unoriginality...

There should be an award for that.

 Interesting article and good read. 

That said... I swear, I die a little inside every time I read through the replies to these pieces.

1. They're *opinion* pieces - the opinion of the author - yet, true to mmorpg.com fashion - there are those who will fall all over themselves telling the author their opinion is wrong.

2. People don't read the part of the article that explains what criteria the author used to compile the list, and demonstrate that fact by asking questions that were addressed in the article. In the few pages I read, I saw at least 4 people asking why EQ2 wasn't mentioned. Even after it was explained that EQ2 came before WoW... people still asked why it wasn't included. It's mind-boggling.

Person A: "Why wasn't EQ2 included?"
Person B: "Because it came out before WoW and the article is about MMOs that launched after WoW"
Person A:  "Oh... -ponder momentarily- So, why wasn't EQ2 included?"
Person B: /facepalm

3. It's clearly stated that the article biases toward Western titles.... Yet there are people wanting to know why decidedly Eastern MMOs weren't included.

Seriously... Do some of you people even *try* to comprehend what you read?

Originally posted by theguru22

How can anyone possibly take this seriously when you put LOTRO as #1?

This has fanboi written all over it. Granted that it's a completely subjective criteria (top 10... to what?! Be a game?), it's still kind of... well... retarded.

I couldn't stand LOTRO. They copypastad WoW with Tolkein lore... great job turbine. That has to be the LEAST original thing to do ever. They stacked unoriginality on top of unoriginality...

There should be an award for that.

Well Turbine has been winning alot of awards for LOTRO: SoA and MoM.  Appearantly the gaming press does not share your opinion of the game.  You claim LOTRO is a copy of WoW but WoW is a copy of EQ and Ultima Online.  So isn't it fair to say LOTRO is a copy of most MMO's that came before it.  Every MMO takes bits and pieces of prior MMO's and applies it to their game.  As long as the game is fun who cares what features are copied from other games.  The many people that play LOTRO think it is fun or they wouldn't be paying to play every month.  The main difference between WoW and LOTRO for me is the story.  LOTRO is an MMO that actually has a great story line.  The epic quests are great.  It's nice being able to interact with the main characters from the books and be directly involved in the war of the ring rather than holding Frodo's hand as he travels to Mordor. 

LOTRO's 87 average review score, many awards from the press, popularity of the game, and frequent free content updates are all valid reasons the game deserves to be #1 on this list.  Nine free content updates with one paid expansion over the first two years with another expansion launching in six weeks. 

Originally posted by metalhead980

 

I find this subscriber talk funny.

For over four years now we've been saying subs dont matter and you cannot range quality by the amount of people playing it.

We used Mcdonalds and boy band references to prove that most popular doesnt equal better.

So here comes Aion it is semi popular and thats all we hear "3.5 million subs" "400k pre-orders!" Please! explain yourself, let the game stand on its own without doing what the WoW fanbois did forever (linking sub totals).

Most of the Aion fans are just hypocrites, they took a shit all over WoW fans for the sub talk and now they use it themselves.

We even have someone saying Aion should be number one due to subs lol.

it's pathetic.

The same hypocrisy and waffling happens with XFire numbers. Amazing how quickly Xfire numbers go from being "valid" to "meaningless" entirely on the basis of whether or not they favor the individual's point-of-view.

Threads on this site ooze with hypocrisy, spin and all around BS. This is nothing new.

I, for one, think it was a cogently laid out and logical opinion piece.  With an emphasis on opinion.

I'm an older gamer (turning 40 this year) and have been gaming my whole life.  I got my start, out of college, beta-testing games for Sega's Master Console - and I had to beta test a whole lot of games - everything from "A Lion King," to sports trivia games, to martial arts games (anyone remember Eternal Champions?).  A good game is a good game, no matter its intended audience or age range.  That's my view.

I've played many games on Dana's list, and currently split my time between playing Atlantica Online and Aion.  Atlantica Online is the first 'Free to Play' game I've tried, and I found out about it via the positive reviews garnered here at MMORPG.com and at other sites.  It's a unique, well designed item mall grinder, and is what it is.  The server I play on (Sikyon) always has alot of people on and my guild is always full for raids.  Last August, they had a game-wide raffle contest which culminated with a fellow from San Francisco winning an 'Atlantica Online' Scion automobile.  Videos are on their website.  Good marketing savvy, and an interesting way to keep your playerbase engaged. This is more than I could say for my experiences with certain pay to play games, such as Vanguard, Warhammer Online and Age of Conan, which were all either dead or dying when I quit playing them.  Just because you have not heard of a game, or are not currently playing it does not diminish its quality or popularity.

I also have to put in a good word for Club Penguin, altho it's a game I, personally, do not play.  As I'm an avid gamer (which, necessarily, is concomitant with negligent parenting), I've always encouraged my daughter to find and play interesting games - including mmos.  She's ten years old, and so far has tried her hand at "Toontown Online," "Faunasphere," "Free Realms," and "Club Penguin."  As I allow her only to subscribe to one MMO at a time, she has to make a choice as to what game to play and what game to give up.  Invariably, the game she chooses to return to, again and again, is Club Penguin.  It's not my cup of tea, and, frankly, I can't see what kids get from it, but they seem to enjoy the game.  Basically, kids play as cute Penguin avatars, and can buy and purchase items, pets (i.e. "Puffles"), hold parties and events, and compete in mini games against each other.  Disney has great marketing, as I've noticed they have Puffles and Penguin stuffed toys at Target, which kids can buy, and receive free items ingame for purchasing.  My daughter has a couple of these. 

The servers for Club Penguin always appear to be busy - again, which is a contrast to the marked failures of several recent 'big name' MMOs.  All of my daughter's little friends appear to have played, or know of both Club Penguin and Toontown (another, older Disney MMO - which some grown ups even play).  I would wager that many MMOs aimed at older player demographic groups would envy the success of these two "kids" games. 

So yes, why not include "Club Penguin" and "Atlantica" into a top 10 post-WOW MMO list.  They're successful, and good at what they do, and in the end, that's what counts. 

Thanks for the interesting read, Dana.

Originally posted by xenogias

Originally posted by philipzam

I am very surprised to see that Final Fantasy XI Online was not mentioned.
It may not be the best mmorpg of all time, but it has been around a log time and set quite a few standards.

Whats you comment on this?

 

If you read what the list is about again maybe you could awnser your own question.

/facepalm

Here's a big clue to help you along, phillipzam...

- FFXI launched in the West in  October, 2003**
- WoW launched in the West a little over a year later in November, 2004

Note the emphasis on the word "later". 

** FFXI first launched in May 2002 in Japan, but this is a "Western Market Only" article, so I used "Western" launch date.

Originally posted by MrcdesOwnr

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Masoniclight

Dana,

I appreciate the list and think it was well done and well thought out, but I do have to ask why WoW's counterpart that came out in the same year was not mentioned? And by that counterpart I am, of course, referring to City of Heroes.

After the same 5 years WoW has been around, I would argue that COH was not only a groundbreaking game (first true Superhero MMO) but that it set a standard in that genre that has still not been met. COH has been a great success in its own right and I feel really should have been added to your good list.

I am glad to see you did have Aion.. if any game can challenge Cuild Wars and WoW it is this game.. beautiful world, awesome story, unique pvpve core... it will continue to do well in my opinion.

just my .02 influence.

 

City of Heroes came out before WoW, so it was as simple as that. I stuck to the launch date cut off pretty strictly. CoH came out in April, EQII about 2-3 weeks before WoW. That's why both were not included.

People, for the love of God, READ THE ARTICLE in it's entirety before posting! That way, Dana can spend time responding to intelligent posts rather than having to waste his time telling you people 50 times over that his criteria for his top 10 list was limited to games that were RELEASED AFTER WoW!



Really, if I didn't think I would get a warning, I'd go off right now, on what I really think about the intelligence level of a significant amount of the people that post here.

I feel your pain. I read some of the posts here and don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I think Club Penguin should be ranked a lot higher.

Being a fan of Penguins (the animal), I couldn't help but notice that every Wal-mart had pre-paid cards for something called "Club Penguin" near the checkout. And that they seemed to sell a lot of them.

Conversely, it's hard not to notice how big a flop LOTRO is. The price of Moria (the boxed set) plummeted to $10, oh, about a month after release. And yet it still sits on shelves.

Turbine is great at taking huge existing franchises (LOTRO and D&D) and sucking all the fun and enjoyment out of them.

Also, while Atlantica did have a pretty good first 9 months or so, if you read the official forums, players are pretty close to being torches & pitchforks mode, over the lack of any real recent content (and the recent we did get really was awful).

See also the reaction to the laughable "Q&A" about it here. Virtually every poster makes fun of it.