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Reklaw
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/07/06
Freedom is the will to be responsible to ourselves. |
10/13/09 3:11:01 PM#81
Originally posted by nate1980
The problem I have with this is that there ARE games like that already, yet people ignore them. UO, SWG (still is sandbox), Saga of Ryzom, Roma Victor, Darkfall, EvE, and Fallen Earth (to some extent). So it's not like there aren't games to play, if you like that sort of thing. UO and SWG been there done that, SoR I like the game, just not like the RMT that comes with it, yeah yeah I can play without the use of it, but I prefure normal sub-fee MMORPG's, Roma Victor, simply not my kind of game, same goes for Darkfall to combat oriented for my taste, EVE I love it's feature's, the setting (Space) just not the whole me being a spaceship, might give it another go with Incarna (formely know as Walking on Stations) And last but not least Fallen Earth, was glad to help during beta and definitly has allot of things I like to be in a MMORPG, just the setting/graphics-animation doesn't appeal me that much. Don't asume those games are ignored as I know what's out there, I either tested/beta'd/trial or subbed to them. ------------------------------------------------------------ |
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10/13/09 3:13:32 PM#82
I think what has been lost is the Role Playing out of MMOrpgs.. and that is what the entire problem with MMOs has come to. Loot and leet and pwning, etc, etc has taken the place of interaction in character and based on the storyline of the game. I sincerely hope that devs everywhere go back and take a look into where they can promote immersion via roleplaying.... just my .02 influence
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10/13/09 3:24:10 PM#83
What once was primarily a geek genre has gone mainstream. With that, the genre adapts to accept the new participants. These include millions of 12 year old ex-console players, plus John and Jane Q Public who now play MMOs instead of watching TV. The more devs continue to adapt to the wider audiences, the more the perceived change in the genre will take place. Gamers who came in recently won't even realize there has been a change, sort of like how the current generation doesn't remember a world before cell phones. Description of this as evolution, devolution, advancement or decay, is largely based upon individual perspective. If you like it, then this 'change' is a great thing. If not, then it's not seen in a positive light. Old, new, sandbox, themepark, geek or just casual, it is what it is whether we happen to like it or not.
Ken |
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10/13/09 3:25:47 PM#84
Originally posted by nate1980
Yes, but most gaming genre's have. It's not something unique to MMO's. We only notice and complain about it more, because MMORPG's are typically subscription based games, whereas other gaming genre's produce games that last usually no more than a week, and then you buy another one. In other words, it's more cost effective and healthier to play one MMO at a time, which may last for years, whereas gamers in other genre's will buy most games in that genre if they're a fan of that genre if they want to keep playing games. There is alot of value in replayability. I tend to choose games that I will play for 100 hours or more. Which isn't exactly hard for me since I never rush through games anymore. Single Player games have actually become much more of a value than the current trend in MMORPGs. Multiplayer shooter games trancend it tenfold. For me, at least.
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10/13/09 3:30:53 PM#85
Originally posted by Morv
I disagree, WoW has merely 12 million subscribers... the world is huge. There is a lot of potential out there and a lot more people willing to play different MMOs.
I think you -drastically- over-estimate the number of people willing to pay a monthly fee to play a game. And this is aside from the social stigma attached to these sorts of games. There will never be another MMO that has the subscription rates of WoW, simply because it is the most socially-acceptable game in the genre. |
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10/13/09 3:58:20 PM#86
You know, the OP's dreams could easily be attained if one company modified its game a little bit. It would only have to add the capability for scripted NPC/Mobs and it would all be done, since the players have made all else. It is Second Life. Everything there is persistant. Everything is player driven. The only thing it lacks is NPCs and mobs. Players have created their own combat systems, and some are very good, but if SL were to have a universal combat system added to ensure game wide balance, then everything the OP asked for would be there. There are tons of sims where there are ruins, secrets, roleplay, exotic and alien lands and everything is built piece by piece, from houses to to clothes. And anyone can do this, if they take the time and learn how. I bring this up, because SL, as boring as it is for some, is a very strong rival to any MMO out there. Lots of folks like it (though few venture to this site). The Op's vision doesn't just have to be a haven for the old UO players, but for anyone desiring a more "live", interactive or exploration based experience. The downside is, Second Life has the steepest learning curve of anything computer game like I have ever tried, bar none. That may intimidate many of today's players who simply want their entertainment fed to them in a neat package. Therefore, I think such a sandbox MMO venture world have to start out niche (like SL did) and the onus would be on the players to give it life and make it grow and on the Dev's to let their vision be molded by the players while maintaining moderation, balance and ensuring a fun play environment. |
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10/13/09 4:09:37 PM#87
Originally posted by Robsolf
That fits my current habits to a T. SWG and Eve were the last games I stuck with for any heavy length of time; about a year and a half each. Since then I've been bouncing around from WoW, CoX, AoC, and now LotRO. I've had a perfectly good time with all of them, but I just find 3-6 months as plenty, and move on until they release an expansion. And fortunately, I'm patient. Not buying a game as soon as it comes out has saved me a ton of money while still receiving the same content(with less bugs). AoC, for example, cost me $7 for the box and a free month. I'll probably do the same thing with Champions in about 6 months or so. I would have loved to see the POB ships in SWG get its bugs squashed and reworked to be even vaguely useful in combat. Even as broken as they were, flying them was a blast and easily the most memorable activity from that game and possibly any MMO I ever played. Too bad POB ships and JTL were dumped to the back burner while they focused on mucking up ground combat. Far as I know, they're STILL a mess. The social aspect in MMO's does seem to have changed. I do think it's less about the games and more about the players. Few of us can play for more than an hour without interruption, and I wouldn't want to keep groups waiting on me for 5-10 minutes at a time.
It is more about the players. I used to play several hours straight in dungeon crawls or RvR in DAoC. While I admit that stuff was a blast, probably more fun than I've had since, I just don't have that time anymore. I don't think it's even ethical for a company to design content that lasts more than 3 hours. This is because there's a whole lot of neglect going on when you're sitting in a chair for longer than that, whether it be neglecting yourself (sleep, eating, hygiene) or others (kids, spouses, friends, school, work). I actually think that's the next thing to go in this genre: Raiding. While I think WoW is getting it right by allowing raids to be saved to the raid group for a week, players aren't taking advantage of it. Instead of doing the healthy thing, making raid runs 2-3 hours per run, they're making them last until completion. I recently went back to WoW after getting geared out from Naxx. I was hoping to start Ulduar and have it done before the Lich Kings raid came out, but my guild raided from 10pm-2am, which usually meant they got started at 11pm, and ended after 2-3am. That just doesn't fly with me, since I have to be up in the mornings. After you try several guilds and then settle on one where you have friends, it's not really feasible to leave one raid group and find another with times that cater to you. Especially when the majority of the community shows a trend of raiding 6 hours at a time. So I left. This is why I now don't mind quest-based, solo-oriented games, because at least I can play those without having to commit more than 3 hours at a time. A MMO with a good story that can be done solo, that also has some group content is enough of a MMO to me. It's okay to have raids in the game, but when the majority of the story or quality content is designed for that, no thanks. It's an aged feature and it's next on the chopping block.
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10/13/09 4:10:18 PM#88
Originally posted by Eben
I think you -drastically- over-estimate the number of people willing to pay a monthly fee to play a game. And this is aside from the social stigma attached to these sorts of games. There will never be another MMO that has the subscription rates of WoW, simply because it is the most socially-acceptable game in the genre.
While I think you have a valid point Eben, never say never. I remember when it was widely accepted that 500K players was the highest any online game could hope to achieve. Now, 500K is almost considered a "failure." Gaming is becoming more and more accepted in mainstream entertainment. The US population spends more on games than it does on movies. This is also very true in other parts of the world too, like Asia. I am sure, that someday, WoW's numbers will be beaten. I just hope it is by something that is fun to play.
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10/13/09 4:15:27 PM#89
Originally posted by Reklaw UO and SWG been there done that, SoR I like the game, just not like the RMT that comes with it, yeah yeah I can play without the use of it, but I prefure normal sub-fee MMORPG's, Roma Victor, simply not my kind of game, same goes for Darkfall to combat oriented for my taste, EVE I love it's feature's, the setting (Space) just not the whole me being a spaceship, might give it another go with Incarna (formely know as Walking on Stations) And last but not least Fallen Earth, was glad to help during beta and definitly has allot of things I like to be in a MMORPG, just the setting/graphics-animation doesn't appeal me that much. Don't asume those games are ignored as I know what's out there, I either tested/beta'd/trial or subbed to them.
Okay, so in one fell sweep, you've eliminated a handful of games that fit your description off your list. What makes themepark games any less succeptible to the same type of eliminations as you did for sandbox games? So really, there's no reason to complain about a lack of games to play, it's just that you're picky. Someone who likes EQ style games may come on here complaining about all the dull themepark games in the genre, and may complain that developers aren't creating good themepark games, just as you or others like you complain that there isn't a good sandbox game. |
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10/13/09 4:24:25 PM#90
Originally posted by nate1980 UO and SWG been there done that, SoR I like the game, just not like the RMT that comes with it, yeah yeah I can play without the use of it, but I prefure normal sub-fee MMORPG's, Roma Victor, simply not my kind of game, same goes for Darkfall to combat oriented for my taste, EVE I love it's feature's, the setting (Space) just not the whole me being a spaceship, might give it another go with Incarna (formely know as Walking on Stations) And last but not least Fallen Earth, was glad to help during beta and definitly has allot of things I like to be in a MMORPG, just the setting/graphics-animation doesn't appeal me that much. Don't asume those games are ignored as I know what's out there, I either tested/beta'd/trial or subbed to them.
Okay, so in one fell sweep, you've eliminated a handful of games that fit your description off your list. What makes themepark games any less succeptible to the same type of eliminations as you did for sandbox games? So really, there's no reason to complain about a lack of games to play, it's just that you're picky. Someone who likes EQ style games may come on here complaining about all the dull themepark games in the genre, and may complain that developers aren't creating good themepark games, just as you or others like you complain that there isn't a good sandbox game.
I think Nate1980 has nailed it. We are becoming just too picky for our own good. I have to wonder, if some company were to release our "dream" MMO would we embrace it, or would we pick it apart and complain? It seems like many here have simply set their bars of expectation way too high. That's not to say the current crop of games don't need some inspiration and a good kick in the ass, but have to I wonder if there isn't truth to the old saying: "I have met the enemy, and he is us." |
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10/13/09 4:57:53 PM#91
Good quote, and yes I think that's a good description. I do think players will come around though. I could be wrong, but from my experience, players go through a cycle. 1. Bliss from realizing the fun and addictiveness of playing their first MMORPG. 2. Boredom of their first MMORPG 3. Exploration of new MMORPGs. - The new MMORPG's never compare to our first, nor could they. 4. Return to our first MMORPG - Our first MMO just isn't the same after we've left, and experienced other MMORPG's. 5. MMORPG hopping or genre abandonment. - People who are addicted to the gameplay or to having something tie up their free time so much, will MMO hop. - Everyone else leaves the genre as they would any other game in other genres 6. Repeat steps 3-5 until enlightenment 7. A person becomes enlightened - They realize that the genre doesn't appeal to them anymore, so they leave it - Or, they realize the genre has evolved, as it must, and accepts the genre and MMO's for what they are 8. Reborn MMO consumers - We play any and all MMO's that appeal to us, finish them, and play another. - We shop for MMO's as we do any other games, and choose those that are the best at what we're looking for. - Since we remember our place as consumers, we no longer are fanboi's or haters of anygame.
But that's just my opinion. |
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10/13/09 4:58:16 PM#92
Reply to OP: Games sell; simulations sell less. Morv: "Isn't that the truth? There was actual real social interaction and cooperation. Not the drum beat of consistent repetition." It's true that social interaction is the result of consistent repetition, but not quite the way you meant. EQ1 had tedious and repetitive mechanics. Thus, people chatted because there was nothing actively occupying their attention (as is the case in the better modern MMORPGs.) SeriphinX: "lol my hats off to you for remaining so civil to these little tard-strong idiots. These little boys are what I like to call eye-twitchers. They sit on a forum and for no reason, other than perhaps being medically unstable, decide to spaz out about the tiniest topic. These are the guys argueing with themselves in a public bathroom stall while taking a mud thumper. I get what you are saying. mmorpgs seem to follow one path now..it seems everyone is afraid to go niche and be profitably stable enough just to keep their game going. Everyone wants to go 'Happy Meal' with it. I take it these yahoos didn't get their bakugan toy with theirs. :)" Amusing irony, SeriphinX. Your post is basically: "Hats off for being mature, now watch me hurl immature insults randomly at the forums!" Palebane: "Roleplaying has been replaced by action and item progression." It's sort of a joke to infer any serious sense of role-playing ever truly existed in videogaming. The term has always referred to story, characters, progression, and playing a role (as in healer/DPS sort of role.) |
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10/13/09 6:32:07 PM#93
Originally posted by nate1980 So true, but you left out one intermediate step in your evolutionary tree... The part where the player goes to the forums and bemoans the whole scene. This is probably the step right before "Enlightenment." |
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10/13/09 6:37:51 PM#94
The number 1 Undeniable fact (in my opinion) is that mmos went mainstream. Ten people who speak make more noise than ten thousand who are silent. |
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I think the point lost in all of this and from a few in particular is that I'm not looking to pine for some old game. I see a greater potential in video games in terms of quality to include a more advanced AI and features. Really, I think we sell ourselves short sometimes. The market is saturated with cookie cutters... I'm not particularly interested in seeing more of those and I hope the new MMOs add more, not less. |
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Originally posted by Axehilt
I don't necessarily agree with this, I think people chatted all the time regardless of all the things they could do. Or they chatted about what they were doing. Having said that, I feel like it's a relative concept, people chat for a plethora of different reasons... Not the least of which being that there is or isn't something to do. |
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Originally posted by Korhindi
Okay, so in one fell sweep, you've eliminated a handful of games that fit your description off your list. What makes themepark games any less succeptible to the same type of eliminations as you did for sandbox games? So really, there's no reason to complain about a lack of games to play, it's just that you're picky. Someone who likes EQ style games may come on here complaining about all the dull themepark games in the genre, and may complain that developers aren't creating good themepark games, just as you or others like you complain that there isn't a good sandbox game.
I think Nate1980 has nailed it. We are becoming just too picky for our own good. I have to wonder, if some company were to release our "dream" MMO would we embrace it, or would we pick it apart and complain? It seems like many here have simply set their bars of expectation way too high. That's not to say the current crop of games don't need some inspiration and a good kick in the ass, but have to I wonder if there isn't truth to the old saying: "I have met the enemy, and he is us."
I disagree, I think we are becoming too complacent. I don't think a dream MMO exists and furthermore, if we set the bar to mediocrity then what would we have? We'd have what we have now which is a list of cookie cutter MMOs with the exact same features... "As soon as you become complacent your show gets canceled." - Dick Wolf. Also, I'd like to point out I didn't create this thread to complain despite numerous claims. Furthermore, this post was created to discuss the potentials of MMOs now and what we are missing in MMO's today not what is already there. So again, Nate, and others, comments about complaining and pining are completely off topic. |
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Originally posted by Eben
I think you -drastically- over-estimate the number of people willing to pay a monthly fee to play a game. And this is aside from the social stigma attached to these sorts of games. There will never be another MMO that has the subscription rates of WoW, simply because it is the most socially-acceptable game in the genre. There's plenty of people in the world to add to that figure. I'll bet you right now that there are 50 million people out there who are willing to pay a monthly fee for a good game. In that figure I'll bet I'm underestimating that number. Why? Well look at how many people pay to download games onto their phones, look at the number of games for consoles sold in comparison to PC games. Or handhelds? Imagine an MMO for the nintendo DS... There is a huge market for MMOs... We've only scratched the surface. |
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10/13/09 8:31:07 PM#99
Originally posted by Morv
Okay, so in one fell sweep, you've eliminated a handful of games that fit your description off your list. What makes themepark games any less succeptible to the same type of eliminations as you did for sandbox games? So really, there's no reason to complain about a lack of games to play, it's just that you're picky. Someone who likes EQ style games may come on here complaining about all the dull themepark games in the genre, and may complain that developers aren't creating good themepark games, just as you or others like you complain that there isn't a good sandbox game.
I think Nate1980 has nailed it. We are becoming just too picky for our own good. I have to wonder, if some company were to release our "dream" MMO would we embrace it, or would we pick it apart and complain? It seems like many here have simply set their bars of expectation way too high. That's not to say the current crop of games don't need some inspiration and a good kick in the ass, but have to I wonder if there isn't truth to the old saying: "I have met the enemy, and he is us."
I disagree, I think we are becoming too complacent. I don't think a dream MMO exists and furthermore, if we set the bar to mediocrity then what would we have? We'd have what we have now which is a list of cookie cutter MMOs with the exact same features... "As soon as you become complacent your show gets canceled." - Dick Wolf. Also, I'd like to point out I didn't create this thread to complain despite numerous claims. Furthermore, this post was created to discuss the potentials of MMOs now and what we are missing in MMO's today not what is already there. So again, Nate, and others, comments about complaining and pining are completely off topic.
I've been replying to yours and other members posts in this thread. If I've been off topic, it's not something I started. Welcome to socializing, where conversations don't always go the way you intended. Being a former infantry Marine, and serving in Iraq, I know full well what complacency can do to a person and a unit. I also know what adapting is. A phrase commonly heard in the Marine Corps is "adapt and overcome." You see complacency, whereas I see people adapting and overcoming. You keep saying "cookie-cutter" MMO's. There is nothing wrong with "cookie-cutter" MMO's, in fact, that very term means the game is following the mold that is to be expected of a game in that genre. That's not bad, nor is it innovative. A game doesn't need to be innovative to be good or worth playing. I've seen a genre that's evolved, not remained stagnant. Since WoW, quite a few uniquish games have released, such as Tabula Rasa, Roma Victor, Dungeons and Dragons Online, LoTRO, AoC, Guild Wars, and Vanguard just to name a few. Sure, some of these games shared similarities to others, but they also were different in some ways. That's how games in the same genre typically work. They aren't drastically different from each other, but hold common traits, and have a few features that make them stand out from the competition. Now if for 5 years, every single game that was released was EXACTLY like WoW and people bought into it, regardless of the quality of the game released, I'd call that complacency. However, that's not the case and the genre hasn't been releasing nothing but "cookie cutter" games. I see a genre that has released something for everyone over the last few years, but people are being picky, because the game meant for them wasn't exactly the way their dream game is built inside their head. |
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10/13/09 8:41:13 PM#100
Originally posted by nate1980
It is more about the players. I used to play several hours straight in dungeon crawls or RvR in DAoC. While I admit that stuff was a blast, probably more fun than I've had since, I just don't have that time anymore. I don't think it's even ethical for a company to design content that lasts more than 3 hours. This is because there's a whole lot of neglect going on when you're sitting in a chair for longer than that, whether it be neglecting yourself (sleep, eating, hygiene) or others (kids, spouses, friends, school, work). I actually think that's the next thing to go in this genre: Raiding. While I think WoW is getting it right by allowing raids to be saved to the raid group for a week, players aren't taking advantage of it. Instead of doing the healthy thing, making raid runs 2-3 hours per run, they're making them last until completion. I recently went back to WoW after getting geared out from Naxx. I was hoping to start Ulduar and have it done before the Lich Kings raid came out, but my guild raided from 10pm-2am, which usually meant they got started at 11pm, and ended after 2-3am. That just doesn't fly with me, since I have to be up in the mornings. After you try several guilds and then settle on one where you have friends, it's not really feasible to leave one raid group and find another with times that cater to you. Especially when the majority of the community shows a trend of raiding 6 hours at a time. So I left. This is why I now don't mind quest-based, solo-oriented games, because at least I can play those without having to commit more than 3 hours at a time. A MMO with a good story that can be done solo, that also has some group content is enough of a MMO to me. It's okay to have raids in the game, but when the majority of the story or quality content is designed for that, no thanks. It's an aged feature and it's next on the chopping block.
Well said. I definitely see it from your perspective. I have to wonder then, doesn't $15/month seem kind of steep in that situation? I mean, if you are running around solo and interested in a good story, wouldn't a single player game seem like more of a value? There are tons of good ones out right now.
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