Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Stuff

I understand what you mean, it makes sense. Can non-linear be enjoyable for those who want to see the outcome too, though?

 

More stuff

While I agree with you, and in fact play all my games in this manner, it is not the way most people think.
 

The vast majority of people are linear thinkers. They are trained from childhood to follow the carrot society gives them. They have done so for so long that they are no longer capable of creating their own carrots. Left on their own, they become confused or bored and will leave, looking for a game that tells them what they are supposed to do next.

But if they have time to play a game, they have time to re-learn how to be creative.

I think a game can teach just that.

What you give them is a very vague goal, and they eventually get their own ideas once they learn that there's no punishment for "lacking" creativity.

That's part of the reason why people are so reserved about their creativity. They aren't very good at it, and because society prefers perfection over innovation, you should never try something unless you can do it right. Stop them of that thinking. In the game, it is completely OK to suck at things "You'll get better with practice."

Now getting that autonomy behind it is the hard part... they have to be willing to do something. This is where the vague goal comes in handy: "Make 20 creations in the sculpting tool." Maybe have some mini-objectives, such as "use 5 different tools on at least 20 creations."

Those are the carrots they chase.

When they run out, they look around at what they've made... if they tried to be creative, they'll look back and want to master what they've started. If that happens, so begins the cycle.

Also, I think current games punish players for failure a bit too much, so they fear failure and don't try new things.

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

While I agree with you, and in fact play all my games in this manner, it is not the way most people think.
 

The vast majority of people are linear thinkers. They are trained from childhood to follow the carrot society gives them. They have done so for so long that they are no longer capable of creating their own carrots. Left on their own, they become confused or bored and will leave, looking for a game that tells them what they are supposed to do next.

I don't think it's such a bad thing. Of course people can make their own carrots, but truly talented people can make those carrots a lot more appealing and interesting than what you could make yourself. I play games for the purpose of looking for those carrots that truly blow my mind, not because I want to create my own carrots. Most of the time, in games at least, when you can make your own carrots they usually aren't as interesting than if you let the developers create the carrots for you. You still have to bend to the rules of the game, and aren't given truly free hands in making what you want, unlike in the case of developers, who can make just about Anything.

Also, carrots.

.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

While I agree with you, and in fact play all my games in this manner, it is not the way most people think.
 

The vast majority of people are linear thinkers. They are trained from childhood to follow the carrot society gives them. They have done so for so long that they are no longer capable of creating their own carrots. Left on their own, they become confused or bored and will leave, looking for a game that tells them what they are supposed to do next.

I don't think it's such a bad thing. Of course people can make their own carrots, but truly talented people can make those carrots a lot more appealing and interesting than what you could make yourself. I play games for the purpose of looking for those carrots that truly blow my mind, not because I want to create my own carrots. Most of the time, in games at least, when you can make your own carrots they usually aren't as interesting than if you let the developers create the carrots for you. You still have to bend to the rules of the game, and aren't given truly free hands in making what you want, unlike in the case of developers, who can make just about Anything.

Also, carrots..

Then I guess my idea of non-linear design relies on people making content that can blow your mind.

If you've played Morrowind or any moddable game, you can understand the power of player-made content. I exclude Second-Life on purpose because the game is not perfected (difficult to learn). I also believe that in order for non-linear systems to work with current technologies, there needs to be some linearity involved to get people interested in the creative part of it.

An underlying story that ends in a suspended 4th, a platform to continue from - so players can go about and do whatever they like once they've finished.

Strangely, non-linear games only come in the variety of  "completely not user-friendly." They're imperfect, so people avoid them. I suppose most developers need to get better at their craft before they can produce something mind blowing.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 

Then I guess my idea of non-linear design relies on people making content that can blow your mind.

If you've played Morrowind or Oblivion, you can understand the power of player-made content.

I know what you mean by the oblivion example, but that's also the example I would use when thinking of the bad sides of such system. 

When looking at Oblivion, and it's stories (dev or player-made) they really never come close to what could be done if players weren't given open hands as to what will be available in the game. The stories are pretty simple and lack the kind of epicness you can find in games like Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy. With everyone creating their own content, you can never truly achieve the scope of story available in those games. They could never create content good enough that it would blow my mind like that, because they're in the end more like me rather than the 'professionals' (for the lack of better word) in game companies creating stories that do blow my mind. The game also puts artificial limits for the players that stop them from implementing their visions in full scope (say if a player wanted to destroy the world of Morrowind in the end of the story, would that be possible? Probably not).

If it was possible for players to create content of the same scale without being limited by the limitations of non-linear (that sounds comical), that would be fine for me too. But so far only linear games can accomplish this, so until something revolutionary comes out (if ever)....

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 

Stuff

... so until something revolutionary comes out (if ever)....

Are you going to chase that carrot?

Because I will.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 

Are you going to chase that carrot?

 

Because I will.

Slow and steady, I'm in no rush anywhere ;).

 basicly like the game FURY was .

wont work that company that made fury made closest thing to what you ask they closed fury not long after released

and there are ton of game close to what you say ,guild wars is fairly like what you propose so is dundgeon and dragon online

i love how aion is its fairly different

However without one you can't have the other.  Without linear how do you learn to look outside the boundries to nonlinear?  Not to say that you are wrong or that it's not possible.  In gaming thry need to find a way to make both possible, and accesable to keep it entertaining and chalenging for the player to want to contiue playing the game.

I like non-linear things in a linear game. For example, there's a boss you have to kill with a group of people. You go to the arena, but as for the tactics on how to beat the boss you have lots of possibilities and aren't stuck with just one. 

You can try kiting the monsters while you down them one by one, you can try zerging them all at once, sleep them, let the paladin supertank them while the healer keeps him up, you can have two tanks playing ping-pong with the boss by switching hate all the time, you can try to do the fight with 3 or 10 players, 5 healers and 5 tanks or 3 DD's and a buffer, and so on.

But as for going to the place to fight the boss, I'd rather have that journey be linear instead of looking for the place for hours without finding the arena the fight is taking place. I don't really find that fun at all. Part of the reason I disliked Oblivion, too. The world is huge, you can go anywhere, so when you have to go somewhere you'll be looking for the place for ages instead of just going there in a tunnel. Pain in the arse!

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Strangely, non-linear games only come in the variety of  "completely not user-friendly." They're imperfect, so people avoid them. I suppose most developers need to get better at their craft before they can produce something mind blowing.

Two things pop to mind regardingly non-linearity's user-friendliness (or lack):

• Spore's amazing editors, as an example of pretty-damn-user-friendly creation devices.
• And also that user-unfriendliness is always going to be an inherent trait to some degree, because (as others have pointed out) many people (not just a few) aren't very capable of doing this stuff on their own.

When tasked with the scientific endevour to make the most innovative game ever, that game might be a non-linear masterpiece.  But when tasked with creating a business-smart product, that game probably isn't a non-linear masterpiece.

The truly interesting question is what do you make when you want to create a fun game.  Because for me, Spore's editors were intermittently cool: often I enjoyed them, but just as often I felt they were obstacles to playing a game*.  I enjoy games, with all their constraints and pattern discovery, and once you take those away and make the product about art and expression...well...they're less game then.

(* Admittedly, the game I was chasing after in Spore turned out to be rather shallow, and inevitably uninteresting.)

Originally posted by Goronian

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Originally posted by Goronian

The only real way to eliminate the grind would be to somehow make the journey enjoyable.

Welcome to the world of non-linear design. Something only a handful of people on this planet understand, and they all prefer to stay away from the video game industry.

 

I don't wonder why.

The way I see it, modern MMOs work on pure wow-impulse - known IPs, pretty graphics, 23 gajillion classes, promises of raiding, PVP and the like. And none of the devs stop and actually try to fill the world with gameplay, not content, GAMEPLAY. Nearly all of them present you with the same game, wrapped in different packages, made to look, like you're enjoying it, rather than simply making it enjoyable.

There is no depth in classes (or even skill-based systems) - all of them are just pigeon-holed in familiar mindsets, with some being Jacks-of-all-trades. There is nothing to explore - everyone has seen everythig, knows how to do everything and can pretty much do it without a big of a fuss. There is no real sense of danger, or amazement, or wonder. You don't care about your death, and can pretty much zerg anything that looks at you funny. Crafting is always a joke, roleplay is either non-existent or extremely limited, lore is half-arsed. But it's pretty and has raiding, so I guess it's okay.

The genre has evolved, surely. Just instead of becoming a human it became a dinosaur.

lol

World of Warcraft doesn't want to be fed... it wants to hunt!

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Originally posted by Goronian

The only real way to eliminate the grind would be to somehow make the journey enjoyable.

Welcome to the world of non-linear design. Something only a handful of people on this planet understand, and they all prefer to stay away from the video game industry.

 

I don't wonder why.

Linear can't be enjoyable?

Resistance 2's Single Player campagn

Guild Wars' PvE

nuff said

Originally posted by Lansid

lol

World of Warcraft doesn't want to be fed... it wants to hunt!

Unlike its players.

Grind is whenever you need to do the same thing a lot. It can be that you need to kill a lot of the same mobs to level, that you need to run the same dungeon a lot, that you need to craft a lot of the same junk or that you need to do a bunch of daily quests.

And the solution to the problem is simple: Base a MMO on Runequest instead of Dungeons and dragons.

Almost every single MMO is based on D&D, and it is a game that in itself is very grindy. Few other RPGs are as bad as D&D (Well, Hackmaster is). Just have a look on the pen and paper RPGs, they have been working hard to get rid of the grind for 35 years now (except D&D again, it is as bad as ever).

Or you could focus on what is fun in a MMO and cut out the rest, that works too. Stop those idiotic go and kill 20 mob quests.

Originally posted by Lansid

 I had a friend run this idea through his A.I. Supercomputer, here is what it thought.

"A strange genre. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

 

I read this and decided that reading any furher would be worthless. Your friends A.I. Supercomputer has clearly won the thread. No further discussion is required.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

In your examples you made things out of wood, but for what purpose? In linear game you might get a skill up, and someday become the master woodworker. But in a non-linear game, there is no such thing- you just keep making wood but there is no end to it, no point where you can say "finally I've achieved the goal I've worked for".

In the linear game, you become the master woodworker because the game tells you that is what you are.  You have done enough grinding through arbitrary tasks to accrue a certain arbitrary number that signals the game to write "master woodworker" into your character sheet.  That is not a meaningful achievement.  That is a badge for wasting time.

In the non-linear game, you become the master woodworker because of word of mouth.  You are known to have an excellent design sense and a high degree of knowledge.  Players come from all around the world to have you craft their sword handles for them, because your sword handles look the coolest. 

Player skill VS arbitrary numbers.  I sometimes think about a game where every gameplay system is somehow made to be completely or at least partially player-skill based.  No character levels.  No skill levels.  No leveling or arbitrary numbers period.  Ability is gained through actual ability.  You are an artist/crafter, you master the game's interface for say, metal engraving.  It could be a zbrush-like program that takes your sculpture and generates a normal map which is then applied over your armor.  General art concepts could be learned through a game like this, instead of macroing to raise craft levels, you develop actual real-world talent and taste that brings people to you to buy your services.  Talent that could potentially be applied outside of the game in real life.  

Things could be gained more through learning that grinding.  It would be more difficult to implement than the standard collection of meaningless numbers, that is for sure.  It would require a development team with balls, and brains. 

Of course, there is also the problem of the average moron of the player base.  With these sorts of crafting systems, the world and all its items would be over-run with player crafted images of genitals.  There would be many many cod pieces out there with a penis engraved onto them, because that is just so clever and so hilarious.  sigh...

Originally posted by Burtzum

Originally posted by Hyanmen

In your examples you made things out of wood, but for what purpose? In linear game you might get a skill up, and someday become the master woodworker. But in a non-linear game, there is no such thing- you just keep making wood but there is no end to it, no point where you can say "finally I've achieved the goal I've worked for".

 

In the linear game, you become the master woodworker because the game tells you that is what you are.  You have done enough grinding through arbitrary tasks to accrue a certain arbitrary number that signals the game to write "master woodworker" into your character sheet.  That is not a meaningful achievement.  That is a badge for wasting time.

In the non-linear game, you become the master woodworker because of word of mouth.  You are known to have an excellent design sense and a high degree of knowledge.  Players come from all around the world to have you craft their sword handles for them, because your sword handles look the coolest. 

Player skill VS arbitrary numbers.  I sometimes think about a game where every gameplay system is somehow made to be completely or at least partially player-skill based.  No character levels.  No skill levels.  No leveling or arbitrary numbers period.  Ability is gained through actual ability.  You are an artist/crafter, you master the game's interface for say, metal engraving.  It could be a zbrush-like program that takes your sculpture and generates a normal map which is then applied over your armor.  General art concepts could be learned through a game like this, instead of macroing to raise craft levels, you develop actual real-world talent and taste that brings people to you to buy your services.  Talent that could potentially be applied outside of the game in real life.  

Things could be gained more through learning that grinding.  It would be more difficult to implement than the standard collection of meaningless numbers, that is for sure.  It would require a development team with balls, and brains. 

Of course, there is also the problem of the average moron of the player base.  With these sorts of crafting systems, the world and all its items would be over-run with player crafted images of genitals.  There would be many many cod pieces out there with a penis engraved onto them, because that is just so clever and so hilarious.  sigh...

You just gave an exact description of Second Life........and yes that is exactly what happens. You end up with retarded idiots running around with giant genitals attached to their avatars. Its a chaotic mess basicly. On the other hand you can also get to see some incredible stuff that you will NEVER see in an ordinary mmo. People that have created their own mini fantasy worlds with interactive artwork or built their own fully funtional boats or aeroplanes.....or even giant battle mechs! A friend of mine got really proficient at making pretty stylish jewelry and clothing that other players paid in-game money for. She also learned how to animate the clothing and hair to flow realisticly. These are real life skills as she got an understanding of working in 3d graphics.

I totally know how you feel though and simpathise with your viewpoint. Unfortunately when most people play games they actually want to switch off their brains for various reasons. Some people have just come home from a hard days work and simply want to relax,  some may already be focusing their creative talents in other areas of their lives and others are simply thick as shit. So I'm afraid we will have to live with the false achievement of watching "Congratulations you are now a master blacksmith" appear on your screen after you have clicked a "create" button a hundred times. Such is life.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Strangely, non-linear games only come in the variety of  "completely not user-friendly." They're imperfect, so people avoid them. I suppose most developers need to get better at their craft before they can produce something mind blowing.

 

Two things pop to mind regardingly non-linearity's user-friendliness (or lack):

• Spore's amazing editors, as an example of pretty-damn-user-friendly creation devices.
• And also that user-unfriendliness is always going to be an inherent trait to some degree, because (as others have pointed out) many people (not just a few) aren't very capable of doing this stuff on their own.

When tasked with the scientific endevour to make the most innovative game ever, that game might be a non-linear masterpiece.  But when tasked with creating a business-smart product, that game probably isn't a non-linear masterpiece.

The truly interesting question is what do you make when you want to create a fun game.  Because for me, Spore's editors were intermittently cool: often I enjoyed them, but just as often I felt they were obstacles to playing a game*.  I enjoy games, with all their constraints and pattern discovery, and once you take those away and make the product about art and expression...well...they're less game then.

(* Admittedly, the game I was chasing after in Spore turned out to be rather shallow, and inevitably uninteresting.)

The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to question just what a "game" is or isn't.

Reason or FL Studio are playgrounds for music creation (I've seen aspects of this in LOTRO). 3DS and Maya are playgrounds for 3D modeling (SPORE was aiming towards this). Microsoft Word or LATex are playgrounds for stories and movie scripts (CoH's mission architect).

Games are starting to become more user-friendly versions of professional software with little playgrounds on the side to show off your work to other people. But while professional software can cost thousands and take months to learn entirely, these games must make the tools accessible in mere minutes to maintain consumer interest, and cannot cost much more than other games.

This is a great boon to user creativity.

Now what if there was a "super game" with all these systems in it? A game that serves as a platform for non-linear rapid prototyping of ideas, which don't require you to learn any unintuitive scripting language or to know anything besides basic reading skills and how to use a mouse and keyboard - and you could share your ideas with everyone instantly.

Is that even a game?

It has no grind. But it also has no plot, no setting, no gear, no bosses or mobs.

Or does it? The plot is your mind's setting - "what do you want to do?" The gear are the tools you use to make whatever you want. The bosses and mobs are the difficulties you'll have learning how to use those tools.

But there is no grind. No grind, because everything you do will have a purpose to fulfill what you want to do.

Everyone wants to be creative - that's a fact.

The thing is, they fear failure and "wasted time" - the two main aspects of linear activities (if you fail, that's bad. If you waste time, that's bad). This is something that's taught to them and needs to be unlearned for them to be creative.

If we had a game that covered every sphere of digital creativity and was better and more user-friendly than all these professional applications, we could get people away from these linear games that feed on their creative insecurities and get them to think freely.

Isn't that funny? Linear games prey upon people's insecurities. They're afraid to be creative, and so they enjoy the linearity these games feed them. Like an addiction to a drug that gives a mental or physical high. It justifies those creative insecurities, so they become reliant upon them.

Some drugs are "better" than others and give a high that lasts longer, but I think we need to stop making drugs.

How to Remove grind out of future games!!

Change the additude in how a persons enters a MMORPG, or simply change playstyle. And if a game doesn't offer another playstyle would such a game be worth playing?

OP: Nice idea, but I still feel grind is what people put onto themselfs and if they get into it and dislike it they still are free to leave it, no game will force anyone to grind. The only one who is forcing anyone is that player him/herself

Who wants to remove it?I don't care what a game puts in,as long as it is fun,challenging and rewarding.

I think too many of these WOW gamers just want instant gratification,this is why they started using the grind terminology.You should hear some of the whining i hear in games ,it is a joke.Players seem like they don't want to do anything at all in a game,honestly why the heck are they even playing these games?

I could see these gamers in a baseball game...."oh man why do we have to play all 9 innings ,it's such a grind"."why can't we just play one inning and get paid 100k for each minute on the field".There is no singles or doubles or triples,that is too much work,just home runs and outs.You hit a home run you don't even have to run the bases.

There is a lot of room for one special developer to step up and make a great game.Two areas alone that need to be fixed is crafting and quests.Both these areas have been done cheap and seem like they are just thrown in to "pretend" to be adding in content.

Another area that still could use some great new ideas is COMBAT,FFXI showed us some new ideas an some other games have touched on some as well,but there is still a lot of room for creativity.

IMO it is only grind,if it serves no purpose and is utter boring.I doubt we will ever see the grind part in games disappear ,because developers cannot afford the time for a well laid out game,it is much easier to generate maps,dot in some npc's then tie them to some meaningless quests.Instead of realistic crafting,they like to dot in some nodes,add some recipes in the database and cya later boring buh bye.