Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Vinterkrig

pve has never really been hard :)

 

Really? It is not hard when only <2% of the players ever clear Sunwell?

 

haha the challenge of raiding was rarely the battles... it was finding 20-40 other halfway decent players and then getting them to all to clear their schedule so they can all log on and spend their whole night raiding.

Hahaha exactly what I was thinking! :)

This whole thread is kinda messed up. If you want a game with a pretty decent challenge, try Vendetta Online or Darkfall. EvE isn't the final solution. Why? Combat takes skill and learning, but honestly, from what I saw of EvE, it's not all that deep and it's the same auto-attack crap. EvE is a gaming marvel, but it's still a game and it's still got it's cons.

Yes, both Vendetta and Darkfall are extremely niche games and yes, they're both still trying to implement all the features they've wanted in the game. Why did I choose them? They've got twitch-based combat and both show a more hardcore side of that twitch-based combat than you'd think and both are completely open-ended with limitless amounts of things to do with factioned PvP between 3 races, they're expansive, and well...they're twitch-based, which i something the "hardcore crowd" wants but never gravitates towards because it ends up being too hard or they just claim hackz. The games also have pretty engaging communities. DF has a lot of PKing but it's part of the game and PKing is for more than just personal glory.

What I'm honestly waiting on is the current-gen Clan Lord. Clan Lord was great in it's time. You determined your class by training under certain trainers, the training was extensive and took work, to survive, all classes were needed. You HAD to work together to survive. It was THE community MMORPG. Shame no one has extended on the idea.

EDIT: to the "give me fun now" guy: Go back to FPSs. If you're going to play an MMO that you're going to pay monthly for, you should be glad that it takes a month to learn so that you know what you're doing and there's a lot to do. If you just got the fun right then and there, then why would you even want to play after the first week, let alone the first month? I still don't understand why people play WoW or games like it. It's literally the same thing with a different skin the whole way through the game with maybe a few distractions, but mostly just more of the same. I seriously see no motivation to play to lvl 10, let alone lvl 80. Especially since they nerfed everything and you can start out fighting an enemy a lvl over you and lose so little health that you gain it back over the walk to the next one. Where's the fun or challenge in that? That's just plain boring.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

MMO's aren't easier. They're just less tedious, less time consuming and more focused on providing challenge without unnecessarily harsh penalties for failure.

Sounds like the definition of easier to me.

Originally posted by skeaser

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

MMO's aren't easier. They're just less tedious, less time consuming and more focused on providing challenge without unnecessarily harsh penalties for failure.

 

Sounds like the definition of easier to me.

QFT.

Also, Ilvaldyr, most of the challenge was the tediousness. It was making sure everything was perfect so that you were at maximum efficiency. Planning was key. Nowadays, most MMOs (obvious exceptions aside...I don't want any "EvE doesn't do that" responses...) handle your stats for you. Where's the challenge there? You're automatically the best you can be. Without the "tedious planning and training" where's the REAL challenge?

The challenge of sport isn't the drive to the arena or getting a team together... its the actual match.  Why anyone would want a developer to make the former difficult to make the "match" challenging is retarded.  Yes the heroic versions of content should require people to bring their A game, no the casual version shouldn't.  You don't need to be a professional athlete to enjoy sport, no reason you should need to be professional gamer to enjoy the content of an MMO.

Hell if people really wanted challenge they would gasp run content early :O  But what most "too easy" people want is to be the only one running around in shiny gear ;)

Originally posted by johnmatthais

Originally posted by skeaser

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

MMO's aren't easier. They're just less tedious, less time consuming and more focused on providing challenge without unnecessarily harsh penalties for failure.

 

Sounds like the definition of easier to me.

 

QFT.

 

Also, Ilvaldyr, most of the challenge was the tediousness. It was making sure everything was perfect so that you were at maximum efficiency. Planning was key. Nowadays, most MMOs (obvious exceptions aside...I don't want any "EvE doesn't do that" responses...) handle your stats for you. Where's the challenge there? You're automatically the best you can be. Without the "tedious planning and training" where's the REAL challenge?

it scares me that anyone would find tedious planning and training fun, i don't play a GAME to be bored waiting for people to get on and do something, i'd rather go read a book and be entertained for my money.

having come from eq, where raiding is largely the main focus still, i wouldn't play any new mmos that focus on raiding or time sinks to make more money, like that anymore.

of course mmos seem easier, because the gaming companies for the most part have seen that forced time sinks piss people off more than they keep people playing.

12 years ago you were lucky to find one or two mmo type games, so we were willing to put up with nonsense like hell levels(i do mean hell) and deaths being dangerous, you either did or you didn't play any mmos for the first year or so, other than UO.

now? not so much, now that we have more companies out to make the next big thing and making a game for people willing to pay, there is no way the "vision" would fit in this post wow world and if they tried it, you wouldn't have a player base long.

it just comes down to the mmo paying customer being more discerning and less afraid of not being in on the big thing, after all most mmo players were going "this is so awesome to play in such immersion, that it doesn't bother me that i have to sit in one spot for 3 hours or more and get screwed by the game designers!"

these days not so much.

Originally posted by demongoat

Originally posted by johnmatthais

Originally posted by skeaser

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

MMO's aren't easier. They're just less tedious, less time consuming and more focused on providing challenge without unnecessarily harsh penalties for failure.

 

Sounds like the definition of easier to me.

 

QFT.

 

Also, Ilvaldyr, most of the challenge was the tediousness. It was making sure everything was perfect so that you were at maximum efficiency. Planning was key. Nowadays, most MMOs (obvious exceptions aside...I don't want any "EvE doesn't do that" responses...) handle your stats for you. Where's the challenge there? You're automatically the best you can be. Without the "tedious planning and training" where's the REAL challenge?

it scares me that anyone would find tedious planning and training fun, i don't play a GAME to be bored waiting for people to get on and do something, i'd rather go read a book and be entertained for my money.

I also find regular console RPGs like Persona, Chrono Trigger and the first six Final Fantasy games where tedious planning is necessary to beat the game fun. There's obviously a market. Your point?

Luminary: Rise of the GoonZu may look cartoonish with its primitive 2D graphics but it takes a lot of social skills to progress in it. Its quests alone can be quite a chore too.

Originally posted by Ponico

First, I'll present this graphic here.

 

 

 

Now, I'll ask a few simple questions and state a few facts about EVE.

 

So you want your game to be harder right? You want to be hardcore right? Okay fair enough, so let's take wow for example and see how this goes.

Remember back in Beta when Onyxia came out? She was hard and it took several tries to get it right... Within 3 or 4 months of practicing, my guild was competing with other guilds on how fast we could do the encounter. This means, 8 minutes... from 45 minutes to 8 minutes. The same went for Molten Core and etc... It's hard alright but after a while, you know the tricks and it becomes pretty easy.

 

In my opinion, the issue is, there is no harder or easier on MMOs. Everything in an MMO is about time and that's about it.

Time to learn how to properly conquer an odd or time to properly grind... whatever, it's time. Darkfall or Ultima Online or EQ... No difference, it's all about time. Sure, some mobs are made to be killed in a group and what do we hear? Kitting technique, exploits and such. After a certain amount of time, everything becomes easy. It's the reason some players prefer PVP.

MMOs are all about patterns.It's like playing old NES Mario or Mega Man.

SO how do you make the encounters harder but still fun and worth the time?

heh, I have no idea but so far, I don't even think it's possible until we start seing Unreal Tournament type of AI. 

 

 

EVE-Online

When will people realize that a 3 million Skillpoints character (3 months old) can kick the ass of an 90 miliion skillpoints if played right. There is not a single ship in the game that requires every single skills you have. Most ships requires the core basics and then a specialized skill or two.

You can PVP and actually kill people on DAY 1 if you're smart and courageous enough. Obviously a noob frigate is still a noob frigate. When I fly with my alliance, I am as powerfull as any other interceptor pilots... some are 3 months old, others are 5 years old and I'm 3 and half year old. it doesn't make a difference, we all use the same 12 skills. The difference is that I've seen and fought many more battles then a 3 month old. I know exactly how my ship handles and what can be done or not during a combat situation. The 5 year old player probably knows even more then me.

 

 

always lol at that graphic.

Post pretty much summed up my point, especially with seeing the "patterns" part. Once you know how the magic tricks work, they're not so "magic" anymore, or any other trick based off the ones you know.

Games haven't gotten "easier".  They lessened on harsh penalties that are time consuming and annoying.  Arcade games used them to eat up quarters.  Now there are some games out there that have gone more "mainstream" and tend to be easier.  Want to know why?  It means more sells.  The game industry has gotten bigger and more people are playing games today.  If they were to hard and unfair, many would be turned off because "it's just a game, spending all this time TRYING to beat it won't mean a darn thing anyway.."

No one game should be HARD.  Like Demons Souls.  It's getting all these rave reviews, yet I believe if they allowed more Difficulty settings, they would probably sell more copies.  (Though I think the only selling point of that game is the hardness of it..)

There should be choices of difficulty each person can chose.  If they want the game or dungeon to

I can get past the easy part.  Its the depth that matters. Most MMOs are extremely shallow. The good ones aren't.

 Games aren't easier, the problem is that old school gamers are more experienced and it is much easier to access information online. 10 years ago you couldn't go online and find a database with every single quest, mob, droprate, and tactics to defeat said mob.

There is really no way to get around this except by making enemies unpredictable.

Originally posted by brostyn

I can get past the easy part.  Its the depth that matters. Most MMOs are extremely shallow. The good ones aren't.

QFT !

What's with people claiming EVE is some sort of challenging game?  

It just puts real life time limits on everything, so your character is basically useless for several years while you log in once a week to buy the skill points you want then log out. 

But a real MMORPG like EQ on the other hand required skill, didn't put real life time limits on everything in the game to prevent people from reaching the end of the game.

EVE is just a chat room with a skill training queue, not a challenging MMORPG at all.

It reminded me of horrible games like WoW where you log in and you keep doing pointless quests over and over for some goal.  In WoW you get exp, in EVE you grind quests over and over for ISK and wait for your characters skills to catch up to what you can buy with your ISK.

What a lousy game, putting those artificial time limits in the game.  Might have actually been a decent game had they not had a skill training queue. Stupid trash company

And those charts are inaccurate, what makes you think WoW and other MMORPGs are requiring more skill as time goes on?  Seems like horrible companies like Blizzard have only dumbed down MMORPGs and made them require LESS skill.

40 man -> 25 man -> 10 man along with making the content substantially easier

Originally posted by Ginkeq

What's with people claiming EVE is some sort of challenging game?  

It just puts real life time limits on everything, so your character is basically useless for several years while you log in once a week to buy the skill points you want then log out. 

But a real MMORPG like EQ on the other hand required skill, didn't put real life time limits on everything in the game to prevent people from reaching the end of the game.

EVE is just a chat room with a skill training queue, not a challenging MMORPG at all.

It reminded me of horrible games like WoW where you log in and you keep doing pointless quests over and over for some goal.  In WoW you get exp, in EVE you grind quests over and over for ISK and wait for your characters skills to catch up to what you can buy with your ISK.

 

What a lousy game, putting those artificial time limits in the game.  Might have actually been a decent game had they not had a skill training queue. Stupid trash company

 

And those charts are inaccurate, what makes you think WoW and other MMORPGs are requiring more skill as time goes on?  Seems like horrible companies like Blizzard have only dumbed down MMORPGs and made them require LESS skill.

40 man -> 25 man -> 10 man along with making the content substantially easier

And this, gentlemen, shows exactly why we have an endless procession of horribly dull unimaginative MMOs being produced.

It's never as good as the first time.

Not only are current games being made more streamlined, they're also being designed with the same devices we're all familiar with.

So it's kind of a double-whammy. Games are being made easier to get into, and so they're easier to play and exhaust the content - plus you already know, from experience with other games, how to solve a lot of the content.

It's gone from a non-linear experience to a linear one. Gotta get that carrot, amirite?

But we can't have games with no carrots in them, can we? .... or can we?

Maybe we need "carrot generators" in our games, so people will use those to make their own fun instead of eating up the piles of carrots we have to keep making. Intrinsic rewards are infinite, extrinsic ones tend to be very limited (IE: only as much as the developers can make).

Isn't that what a sandbox tried to capitalize on? Some "carrot generating device?"

I think they're all using the wrong generators (complex character creation, lots of character advancement possibilities, etc.). There's one right in front of us and we're not capitalizing on it. It's called "people."

Other people are entertainment, games just need devices to make that entertainment accessible.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

What's with people claiming EVE is some sort of challenging game?  

It just puts real life time limits on everything, so your character is basically useless for several years while you log in once a week to buy the skill points you want then log out. 

But a real MMORPG like EQ on the other hand required skill, didn't put real life time limits on everything in the game to prevent people from reaching the end of the game.

EVE is just a chat room with a skill training queue, not a challenging MMORPG at all.

It reminded me of horrible games like WoW where you log in and you keep doing pointless quests over and over for some goal.  In WoW you get exp, in EVE you grind quests over and over for ISK and wait for your characters skills to catch up to what you can buy with your ISK.

 

What a lousy game, putting those artificial time limits in the game.  Might have actually been a decent game had they not had a skill training queue. Stupid trash company

 

And those charts are inaccurate, what makes you think WoW and other MMORPGs are requiring more skill as time goes on?  Seems like horrible companies like Blizzard have only dumbed down MMORPGs and made them require LESS skill.

40 man -> 25 man -> 10 man along with making the content substantially easier

EQ was just a big grind, from what I've heard (and what little I've played). Obviously an enjoyable one, but a grind nonetheless. You and so many other oldschoolers keep mistaking patience for skill, and it's quite amusing. The only real 'challenge' in 40-man raids is getting 40 people together in the first place.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Enlighten us on how a 40 man in Everquest takes/took more skill than a 40 man in WoW. Tell us how in a way that doesn't involve mindless level/equipment grinding for it. I'm willing to bet you can't.

Oh, and in regards to EVE, please play it for more than 5 minutes before bashing it. Sure its got many faults, but not requiring skill? That isn't one of them. Your comment proves you probably didn't even play it at all.

Edit: Agree 1000%, Malcanis.

Just make different servers, some as we have now "EZMODE" and the a few with mobs that need groups to kill, yes GROUPS!

Be a bit social and group !

with choice of servers we can choose!

Dont cross the board nerf the games, SOE anyone?

Let soloers kill green mobs? why not ehh?????????

MMORPGS as we have now are shit

The way I see it, it doesn't matter how easy MMOs have become. The problem to me is that MMO has turned into "Online world in which other people play, but don't care about anyone else and don't really care about the lore, and are only interested in 'mastering the game' before quitting."

Most MMOs thus far have not been designed to be friendly towards real adventurers, roleplayers and lore-addicts. They haven't had extremely advanced character creation (save for a handful) and the class systems have stagnated in the still waters of dullness. MMOs should have been the visualization in 3D of what PnP is/was. They should allow you to be anything or anyone you want, doing whatever you want within their created world, wherever you want.

To quote myself: "If I want to be an orc bard, I'll bloody well be an orc bard!"

Thus far, the only MMO that has come close to this is Champions Online, but of course there are huge limits to what I can be and where I can be that person. Fallen Earth appears to allow you to do whatever you want, whenever you want within the confines of their world. The character creation was a bit limited to me but I could get beyond that. Besides that, it seems to be relatively open and free, not totally a sandbox but enough to enjoy it if you're a true adventurer or roleplayer...

It doesn't matter one way or the other if Fallen Earth is easy or not (I don't think it's easy, it's not for casual people but it's not insanely difficult), it's got a lot of elements that I know I and many others would thoroughly enjoy.

APB will probably allow for some pretty awesome gameplay, though I don't know if you can classify searching an alleyway or run down building as adventuring. Will it be easy? No idea, probably not. I imagine it will rely heavily on player skill as it's supposed to be a MMO-FPS/TPS/RPG...

I think most MMOs are relatively tough to master, save for the warmachine that is WoW. It is easy to those who wish it, and difficult for those who want a challenge (to a degree; leveling is easy any way you cut it). Free Realms seems pretty easy, but it isn't the standard for MMOs.

To sum up my reply, I think the OP really only thought of WoW when writing his post as I don't know any other REALLY easy MMOs out there. To each their own though. MMOs are a game, not a lifestyle...