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10/08/09 10:38:30 AM#81
Originally posted by Cammy
I can appreciate what you said there, and how, but look around at what and how people are countering folks who say they didn't like it because it is a grind. They are flaming them as carebears or people who want things handed to them and other such attacks. The person I quoted in pointing out this change is a good example (quoted again below):
Originally posted by DoomsDay01
This is more the typical Aion fan responding to people who say they think the game is a grindy. That is the type of person my comment was referring to. And I should think each and every single one of them will quit Aion flaming Aion for being carebear when this goes live or they can simply change their names to Hypocrite to make it easy for everyone to know where they are coming from.
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10/08/09 10:56:38 AM#82
What MMORPG isnt a grind? Seriously, if there is one tell me. All a developer can do , is try to make the grind (which is inevitable) a little bit more interesting than the last one was. It seems to me that the grind is a part of the platform. Do people buy FPS games and then git pissed off because they have to aim with a mouse , or because they have to shoot from a first person perspective? Doubt it. You dont want the grind? Then why the interest in MMORPG's? If there is indeed an MMORPG that is without a grind show it to me , and I will gladly eat my words. ( lol just try not to rub it in too much if you can enlighten me at all on this lol ). |
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10/08/09 11:07:44 AM#83
Originally posted by AgtSmith
I can appreciate what you said there, and how, but look around at what and how people are countering folks who say they didn't like it because it is a grind. They are flaming them as carebears or people who want things handed to them and other such attacks. The person I quoted in pointing out this change is a good example (quoted again below):
Originally posted by DoomsDay01
This is more the typical Aion fan responding to people who say they think the game is a grindy. That is the type of person my comment was referring to. And I should think each and every single one of them will quit Aion flaming Aion for being carebear when this goes live or they can simply change their names to Hypocrite to make it easy for everyone to know where they are coming from.
You have to understand... when every second post on these forums is "Aion is a super grind fest - you are all noobs who are in denial - I gotz to level 11 - I knowz"... it puts people in a very defensive mind-state. Myself included.... If people would just leave it be and not be jackasses, there wouldn't be half as much flaming going on... true story :) |
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Jackio81
 Novice Member
Joined: 11/11/08
The MMO genre as a whole is a running joke considering a 5+ year old game is so dominant. |
10/08/09 11:20:15 AM#84
Originally posted by Tyvolus88 sorry kid, no signs of AION slowing down at all. Full, ACTIVE servers, guilds are ACTIVE and FULL. xfire holding up quite nicely, in fact its been going up. I am having a blast and have been playing every day since launch. But hey, you and all the other haters keep on hopin'. Every day AION keeps doing great I know people like you suffer -- That makes me feel real good.
Hmmm, sounds like you think you have a clear sense of what my reasons are saying what I do on these forums....thinking I'm not the type of person who wouldn't actually mind seeing an MMO come out where players care less about the grind and rushing to end-game and instead begin creating stronger bonds and communities similar to the effect how MMOs use to have.
But you see I'm very skeptical about that and I don't see that happening considering today's MMO crowd, today gamers are way to self-centered for that.
"Every day AION keeps doing great I know people like you suffer -- That makes me feel real good."
You do know that makes a bad person with issues right....lol =P
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10/08/09 11:27:30 AM#85
ok how many hours you grinded in wow for that elusive armor piece you wanted or how m,any run in various raid did your run to get that weapon 20 run 30 run at one run a week because its limited to once a week every mmo have some kind of grind you guys make me laugh when you speak as if there were mmo that did not have grind ALL MMO have3 grind ,dont like grind go play free realm |
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10/08/09 12:57:19 PM#86
"Grind" is what makes a MMORPG, stop reacting like it's something new. You'll see it in nearly all MMORPGs. ESS O ESS. O ESS O. OR ESS? Bah, fuck it, just call 911. |
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LordMagnus
 Novice Member
Joined: 10/02/03
-I insist on hearing bad news immediately. -Expect the Unexpected. |
10/08/09 1:20:08 PM#87
Holy christ, people. I'm not going to say Aion isn't a grind- because it is, but PLEASE let me know of this secret mmo that you complainers are all playing that doesn't have a grind. Please, i'm begging here, let me know.
*doesn't expect a serious response* |
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10/08/09 1:29:03 PM#88
Originally posted by LordMagnus
You won't get any replies because the nay-sayers don't have a real answer for you ;) The reason is, this super-secret MMO doesn't exist. Grinding happens in EVERY MMO, period... [gets popcorn and grabs a seat] [munch munch munch] |
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10/08/09 6:04:52 PM#89
Originally posted by AgtSmith
I can appreciate what you said there, and how, but look around at what and how people are countering folks who say they didn't like it because it is a grind. They are flaming them as carebears or people who want things handed to them and other such attacks. The person I quoted in pointing out this change is a good example (quoted again below):
Originally posted by DoomsDay01
This is more the typical Aion fan responding to people who say they think the game is a grindy. That is the type of person my comment was referring to. And I should think each and every single one of them will quit Aion flaming Aion for being carebear when this goes live or they can simply change their names to Hypocrite to make it easy for everyone to know where they are coming from.
Actually your wrong. This is from a 10+ year MMO vet that knows how MMO's are and how crappy they have been made for the last several years. Easy leveling, quests every where you turn (that part I actually like), No death penalties. Just zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die until something is finally killed. You complain that aion isnt complete which no MMO ever made is. Hey, look EQ1 just celebrated 10 years of being in business and guess what, they STILL haven't finished the game. And no, trust me, if I flame you, you will damn well know it. Im simply calling you out on your ignorance of MMO gameplay and your intolerance to slow paced leveling. It is not the right genre for you, simple as that. I like the game, I am not a fanboy at all. I find many things about the game to be very irritating. Flight is unique, but that doesn't make the game. I dont like the fact that so many mob models are used over and over again as you level up. Its a failing example from the start of MMO history that devs, even spending years making the game, cant let their modelers make enough mob skins that you dont have to rinse and repeat every 10 levels. The list can go on and on and on about the things that I dislike in MMO's. However, What I do is try to take the best of what I am given and play the game. When its not fun, I quit and move on. I dont go to forums and bitch about how everything sucks and I am never playing this game again. I simply leave and move on. Something you could learn a thing or two about. If your only defense for trolling or hatred is a stupid tag line, Then you should quit life. |
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10/08/09 6:59:30 PM#90
Flamers: Who are you trying to convince? If Aion 'fails' time will tell people will leave the game and head right back to the nemesis WoW. Honest players: This thread is pointless Aion is great it is a "grind" but as is every MMORPG. Arguing with ignorant fools is pointless there mind is set they don't need to play, if they bought it and enjoyed it then fine, if not the who cares this forum is too small to take any impact on the current sub numbers
PEACE |
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10/08/09 7:04:43 PM#91
so what do people want? you start the game at end game? |
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10/08/09 7:09:53 PM#92
Id just like to point out that the fact someone has been playing mmos for 10 years is actually detrimental to their ability to judge games. they think the way they had it is the only way it should ever be. They look past all the shit that was early mmos to the parts that were good. They can't accept anything new no matter how good it is. New games outstripe old games by miles in the catagories that matter to the people playing them. Just because they no longer cater to the guy who wants to make friends online as opposed to in the real world and live in fantasy land doesn't mean they are bad it just means its not for that guy. |
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10/08/09 7:36:10 PM#93
Originally posted by DoomsDay01
I didn't take a stand one way or another on the casual VS hardcore grind thing, though I have said I felt Aion was too grindy my objection was not in the grind but the timesink element Aion uses excessively. Personally, I think the change they are proposing, without getting in to specifics of the amount and how it relates in game, is a good idea because the main game of Aion is PvP and until the later levels you cannot really participate on an even footing so haivng people timesink/grind through mid levels where they are just gank fodder seems stupid to me. I think a Guild Wars type fast to upper level so you can get in to the main endgame part of things makes more sense. But all that being said, my biggest gripe with Aion was more surrounding the poor quality PvE than the grind or anything else. I felt it was there just as a gating to the endgame and as such should have been shorter or if it was going to be more time consuming it should have been better quality. I also didn't like the way flight was largely a gimmick - cannot fly in most places and AI farts out and resets if you fly and things like that. Basically, in my opinion, Aion is what the rap against it says (if you can remove the condescending nature of the description), a Korean grinder. If you like that sort of thing then great - go power through and get to the point that you can gank away on those still working their way up. I don't like that kind of thing but Aion is pretty much that, albeit a good variant of it in terms of production quality. -------------------------------- |
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10/08/09 7:44:10 PM#94
Originally posted by DoomsDay01
Actually your wrong. This is from a 10+ year MMO vet that knows how MMO's are and how crappy they have been made for the last several years. Easy leveling, quests every where you turn (that part I actually like), No death penalties. Just zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die until something is finally killed. You complain that aion isnt complete which no MMO ever made is. Hey, look EQ1 just celebrated 10 years of being in business and guess what, they STILL haven't finished the game. And no, trust me, if I flame you, you will damn well know it. Im simply calling you out on your ignorance of MMO gameplay and your intolerance to slow paced leveling. It is not the right genre for you, simple as that. I like the game, I am not a fanboy at all. I find many things about the game to be very irritating. Flight is unique, but that doesn't make the game. I dont like the fact that so many mob models are used over and over again as you level up. Its a failing example from the start of MMO history that devs, even spending years making the game, cant let their modelers make enough mob skins that you dont have to rinse and repeat every 10 levels. The list can go on and on and on about the things that I dislike in MMO's. However, What I do is try to take the best of what I am given and play the game. When its not fun, I quit and move on. I dont go to forums and bitch about how everything sucks and I am never playing this game again. I simply leave and move on. Something you could learn a thing or two about.
/signed |
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10/08/09 7:46:35 PM#95
Let me add an important distinction that is missed in this grind discussion. Whether a game is casual friendly (fast levels) or more hardcore (slower levels like an EQ) is separate from grind. I prefer a more deep and complex MMO (like VG or EQ or something like that) to a very casual one (like Champions Online). But that being said, grind is something different than leveling pace. Grind is doing un-entertaining, often unrewarding, or simply un-fun stuff over and over just to manufacture XP (or something else in some contexts). those of us who bemoan Aion's grind are not criticizing the leveling pace so much as the artificial nature of the timesink in some of the level ranges (particularly from my experience as you approach 20 and above). Yes, all MMOs have grind - just as all have timesinks and moneysinks and other things that by themselves are unpelasent to most gamers. The trick, and what separates the good games from the bad ones, is how well those sinks and the grind is dressed up and either made fun or at least how well the annoyance of such things is mitigated. -------------------------------- |
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10/09/09 1:11:01 PM#96
Originally posted by Carl132p
Wow (no pun intended), Someone with 10+ years of mmo experience can not judge them properly? That may be the most ignorant comment I have ever seen. The fact that they are STILL playing MMO's 10 years later shows that they can appreciate some of the new stuff that has been implemented over the years.
I have stated this for years, People complain that the games are to easy and they are, there is no denying that. This genre while it has picked up a lot of people, has went in mostly the wrong direction and I will explain more on that in a minute. Sure wow has millions of subs, and strictly by a numbers game it makes them the best mmo ever, but not in terms of content and gameplay. You see a lot of these people, wow was their first mmo, so they cant even comprehend another mmo being harder than what they have seen in wow. Don't get me wrong, I played wow for a good long while and I liked it, It was fun, but in the end, it had no soul, and many of those people that are leaving, even if they dont realize it yet, are starting to comprehend this at least on some level. So what happens now, every game since wow is a wow clone and thus either sucks because the game devs tried to give easy gameplay trying to imitate the leader, or it sucks because the gameplay is harder and longer. Its a no win situation to these new players and in many cases to the old players as well. Most of MMO's today are but a shallow shell of what they once were. Sure there are very nice innovations in the market today that if had been applied back in the old days, could have really enhanced the game play but at the same time there are many enhancements that have also hindered the genre as a whole. The original design of MMO's is group play. To bring people together as a group and function well, That is not the case in most of them today. Most highly encourage solo play and while I have always (even 10 years ago) liked soloing, it does break down what an MMO is all about and that is group play. Now earlier I mentioned that the genre has went in the wrong direction and I will try and elaborate on that more now. Back in the old days, there were several key features that have been completely stripped from mmo's now and while it has made the game so much easier, it has also made it so much more boring. The biggest key feature that is missing now is fear. There is no reason to fear anything in the game anymore which makes people much more aggressive in the game because they simply dont care if they die or get entire parties wiped. The only penalty for death now is time and with todays mmo travel methods, thats not even a penalty anymore. See, without penalties, you can never truely understand the victories. All victories are just pale wins with no real meaning if there is no consequences for failure. Now I am not talking about losing xp for death, I am talking penalties for playing stupid. There are many things that could have been done to give penalties without taking peoples xp. My favorite and most hated which means it actually did its job was one of the penalties EQ1 gave for death. That was the corpse run. They could have left out the xp loss and it would still have been one of the most feared things in the mmo genre. It means you now have to fight to get back to where you were and get your stuff back. That one aspect alone really brought fear to the game. The folks that have never experienced this, just cant even wrap that notion around their head. The most they can say about it is that its stupid, but that is simply ignorance talking. You simply can not have a game that has no penalties in it and expect it to be fun forever. Its just going to get boring and blah and soon your looking for something better. The problem is, something better can never come along because once you take out all the penalties, what is there to accomplish? How can players feel respect for their accomplishments when they didn't have to earn it? If zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die zerg/WIN is all the have to do and there was no penalties for all those deaths, what did they really win? All they learned is there is no penalties for failure so we dont have to think about what we are doing, we just zerg it till we get lucky and win and boom, we got that shiny new plate piece.
Now back to your statement. I dont look past all the shit that was there 10 years ago, and there was a lot of it. I have stated that I like a lot of the new features that the new mmos bring to the market. The problem is that when you take out penalties,can you really actually accomplish anything? Think about that for a while.
If your only defense for trolling or hatred is a stupid tag line, Then you should quit life. |
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10/09/09 1:35:55 PM#97
Originally posted by AgtSmith
You yourself say that you prefer games more like EQ then say, Champions. What is the difference? fast level pace vs slow level pace. Both have one thing in common, the grind to the next level. There is no real "trick" that seperates good ones from bad ones. they are very obvious. What people are forgetting about slow leveling games is that those type games have huge time sinks in them. Its not an annoyance, its there for its exact purpose and people forget this. Its there because you should be grouping and spending your time while grinding, socializing with your fellow players. Thats what seperated EQ from every other mmo out there. You were socializing the entire time you were grinding, which in turn made the grind less of a grind and more about hanging out with your friends while gaining xp. Since MMO players of today expect to be able to solo all the way to max level, they never sit back and enjoy the very big aspect of socialzing with their fellow players. Instead, that type of player thinks he is socializing with his fellow players because he is using the LFG channel as his personal barrens chat when in fact has nothing to do with socializing at all. They cant understand or even comprehend why a game would have levels like this. Now, I cant speak for the koreans, but maybe this is why they prefer the grind fest games over the quest type games. They enjoy playing with their friends and socializing while they are gaining xp. Maybe, just maybe, they enjoy the community first and the gameplay second. If your only defense for trolling or hatred is a stupid tag line, Then you should quit life. |
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10/09/09 2:26:51 PM#98
Originally posted by DoomsDay01
You yourself say that you prefer games more like EQ then say, Champions. What is the difference? fast level pace vs slow level pace. Both have one thing in common, the grind to the next level. There is no real "trick" that seperates good ones from bad ones. they are very obvious. What people are forgetting about slow leveling games is that those type games have huge time sinks in them. Its not an annoyance, its there for its exact purpose and people forget this. Its there because you should be grouping and spending your time while grinding, socializing with your fellow players. Thats what seperated EQ from every other mmo out there. You were socializing the entire time you were grinding, which in turn made the grind less of a grind and more about hanging out with your friends while gaining xp. Since MMO players of today expect to be able to solo all the way to max level, they never sit back and enjoy the very big aspect of socialzing with their fellow players. Instead, that type of player thinks he is socializing with his fellow players because he is using the LFG channel as his personal barrens chat when in fact has nothing to do with socializing at all. They cant understand or even comprehend why a game would have levels like this. Now, I cant speak for the koreans, but maybe this is why they prefer the grind fest games over the quest type games. They enjoy playing with their friends and socializing while they are gaining xp. Maybe, just maybe, they enjoy the community first and the gameplay second.
QFT... I wish we had more posters like this /shrug |
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10/09/09 5:13:51 PM#99
Originally posted by DoomsDay01
First, I used EQ as an example as it is know for a more old school, hardcore style and Champions because it is a recent 'easy mode' type. I wasn't saying that I love EQ on one side and hate Champions on the other side, was just trying to use examples people would associate accordingly.
Second, all I was saying is that the gripes about grind are more about repetition of unfun things that a commentary on how long in time a level up takes. Maybe you disagree but I think that most people that gripe about a grind are really griping about the unfun part not so much the time part.
And I do think that whatever the source of the grind gripes is, slow leveling or unfun leveling, there is a big difference in good and not so good games in how they masquerade 'grinds'. For instance, a game that just has you jumping through hoops without much pretense and/or doing lots and lots of repetitive and unfun stuff just to progress is not so much likely to be a 'good game'. On the other hand, a game that gives attention to adding fun elements to break up repetition and grind even if it is still taking lots of time to level is going to be a good game. It is all about progression, and how fun it is. Good games, be they slow leveling or fast leveling, are designed to give players a sense of progression and accomplishment as fuel to work through those levels and where they may have longer gaps in levels or milestones they will give attention to keeping things fun and interesting. What separates good and bad MMOs is not fast or slow leveling as that is arbitrary overall, it is if the grind or timesinks or progression is rewarding and fun and if it scales from start to finish. -------------------------------- |
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10/09/09 5:30:24 PM#100
mm 10 years ,that was everquest ,wich will get an expension soon 16th ,that makes that a great game in any book |
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