This week, Garrett looks at the idea of scaling raid instances in World of Warcraft and how it would help his experience.

One of the great features of MMOs is playing with your friends or guild. The social aspect of MMO keeps people playing over long periods of time because of the friendships they form. In looking at how groups play together I thought about the concept of instancing and how developers might better cater to player groups as a whole.
Imagine having seven friends who play together yet only having the option of a five man instanced dungeon, this can be frustrating.

Right now Warcraft runs five, 10, and 25 man dungeons. The 40 man raid was scraped after a few years because getting 40 people to do anything was so difficult. I spent many hours on these 40 man raids and was amazed at how little players got for hours of team work among 40 people. Times have changed and Warcraft has made it easier to get groups together. Yet even on the server where I play (one of the originals) guilds are finding it hard to fill out their 25 man requirements for raids.

Read it all here.

 Sounds like a nice idea. I would rather see it scaled at 10 and above though. Of course loot wise, the hardcore would be against giving out the same loot across the board. Which would be fine with me ... They could do loot like they do now, scaling the instance but only rewarding 10 man loot to all raids under 25 players. The amount of drops could go up based on the amount of people over 10 that you have.

 If done well, it could be really great. Sucks tryign to do a 10 man and having to pick who goes and who doesn't. Or you watn to do a 25 man .. but your 5 short.

Scaling instances would be awesome but I can see many issues with balancing. Most WoW instances are balanced for 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS with room for small variences. Do you scale the difficulty equally if you add another healer or another tank? Do you make the mobs hit harder if another healer is added or do you spawn more trash mobs if you get another tank? Do you make the mobs enrage faster if you add another DPS? I'm sure it can be done but I think a lot of factors play into how to make scaling work and maintain a challenge.

How is it that a game that boasts some 13 million players has a problem getting 40 people to work together? Older games like EQ, which had around 500k players at peak, were quite capable of putting together 72+ man raids. Instancing put a cap on raiding which in the long run has made it more difficult to fill out larger groups. When EQ offered large scale raids, large guilds were quite common. Once WoW came out with the 40 man raids, most guilds downsized to accomodate the raid size. Being that 41st person on a 40 man raid caused many players to leave guilds to look for a guaranteed raiding spot. This made matters even worse when you had a no show because fewer and fewer guilds maintained a large number of standbys which results in canceled raids if one or more people dont show. Recently it has become increasingly difficult for the 10-25 man raiders to fill out raids regularly because of the same problem.

WoW has even made it so that raiding rewards barely outshine the 5 man grouping rewards. Today, purple epic items have become the new blue rares.

scaling dungeons would be kewl, but i think that might create some odd ball gear they way Bliz currently gears.  You know something like a chest piece with 1 point on each stat increased.  How much of a requirement would it be to do the 7 or 9 man version before you do a 10 man raid? (silly)

One thing i found interesting in your article though is you said that even on your older server guilds were having problems filling the 25man version.  From my experience this tends to be the problem when everyone on the server just wants to be a guild leader.  100 guilds all with 17 players and not enough of a server community to just make 30 guilds with 50 players, then you can do a few 25 and a few 10mans, leaves lots of room open for alts runs etc.

I've been harping this idea around for a couple of years now. I am a diehard solo player and an amateur game dev in my own right and I've long believed this to not only be possible, but the wave of the future for mmo's. I think it will take some complicated formulae beyond the number of players that enter the instance, though. Classes, Talents and Gear will all have to be considered in order to accurately tailor a dungeon's difficulty. An instance will have to be able to adapt on the fly as well since players can swap out gear and even Talent builds, summon others in or have someone leave the group. The best approach to this may involve the formula being applied at the time that combat begins with an NPC rather than when a group enters the instance. In this way every fight is tailored to the group/individual rather than to those that entered.

I pay the same $15/month as everyone else and have long been discontent with why I must group in order to get the good gear. I am anti-social and I know it, but I much prefer to conquer all by my lonesome. If I enter The Eye solo (can you imagine it?) and every battle in there are just as difficult (respectively) for me as they are for a 25 man raid group then why shouldn't I be entitled to the same loot they would get?

There is still time and something like this could be worked out and implemented with Cataclysm. I can see where this would extend the life of a declining game as well. Whether you disagree as to whether or not that is happening with WoW it does eventually happen to all games and software companies can take preventive measures to forestall it.

Originally posted by Murashu

Scaling instances would be awesome but I can see many issues with balancing. Most WoW instances are balanced for 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS with room for small variences. Do you scale the difficulty equally if you add another healer or another tank? Do you make the mobs hit harder if another healer is added or do you spawn more trash mobs if you get another tank? Do you make the mobs enrage faster if you add another DPS? I'm sure it can be done but I think a lot of factors play into how to make scaling work and maintain a challenge.

 

How is it that a game that boasts some 13 million players has a problem getting 40 people to work together? Older games like EQ, which had around 500k players at peak, were quite capable of putting together 72+ man raids. Instancing put a cap on raiding which in the long run has made it more difficult to fill out larger groups. When EQ offered large scale raids, large guilds were quite common. Once WoW came out with the 40 man raids, most guilds downsized to accomodate the raid size. Being that 41st person on a 40 man raid caused many players to leave guilds to look for a guaranteed raiding spot. This made matters even worse when you had a no show because fewer and fewer guilds maintained a large number of standbys which results in canceled raids if one or more people dont show. Recently it has become increasingly difficult for the 10-25 man raiders to fill out raids regularly because of the same problem.

 

WoW has even made it so that raiding rewards barely outshine the 5 man grouping rewards. Today, purple epic items have become the new blue rares.

please post a recent link (anytime in 2009) from the official world of warcraft site states they have 13 million million subscribers at the moment or at any point this year .
 

Originally posted by Murashu

How is it that a game that boasts some 13 million players has a problem getting 40 people to work together?<~~~ LOL

Older games like EQ, which had around 500k players at peak, were quite capable of putting together 72+ man raids.

The reason why WoW has problems with the 40 mans is because a lot of people just don't have patients to wait on a party. People now days are all I want it and I want it now, running through dungeons lightning speed and when your done everyone jets.  When I played WoW i got to level 50 and got bored of solofesting all these crappy quests and going through the endless grind of getting gear.  You get a piece and you level so damn quick in the game in a day or 2 its obsolete and you have to go through another mindless speed run through another dungeon.

I guess my pace of gaming is slower than most the people in the world.  I just like to chill in parties and go out and adventure, I could care less about all these crappy kill x monster bullshit. If you're going to make quests make fewer longer and more interesting quests, but I guess that's not what the masses want.

LotRO is creating this scaling method with its skrimishes. I know its not exactly like what you suggested but it is close. I also think that since instanced raids have limits on players, it causes a problem of telling people your full and them people not showing up. To solve this problem I think that raids should be without a cap of players. If I can get 40 people together for a 25man raid, then wouldnt'i be stopped in real life. I dont think anyone would said "Hey Persians, this war is only for 1,000 people max! Can't you see there is only 300 Spartans? That is totally unfair!" If a guild can put together the forces, then let them!

Another idea is to create a instance for each encounter that is created but then have it accessible to others. So instead of having to be in the right group, you run up to the instance and a dialog box pops up. "Please enter Instance name and password." Therefore; the raids are instanced but persistant. Once everyone leaves the zone the zone is deleted after 30 minutes or can be manually deleted by the raid leader.

I know I sound crazy but with a bit of work and tweaking this could actaully work. As a result  of this, people could use 80 people for a raid that is suggested to be for 25men. Sounds fun to me. But they also have a choice of only taking 25 or even 20 men. 

Aside from raids, i think that dungeons should be designed like they used to be in EQ (think Karnor's Castle or Sebilis) then when a group enters the zone, they get a copy of thier own zone. They can set a name and password for it like mentioned above and have people join it. With this guild can create thier own "Karnor's Castle" and have fun with multiple groups and multiple camps all day/night. Once they are done and everyone is left for 30 minutes or the guild leader chooses to do so, the instance/zone is deleted. I also discussed possible treatments of dungeons in a formet post of mine called "why does everyone love instancing." I talked about another method there. I like this one better. There is no need for scaling when dungeons are treated this way.

Thanks for reading my wall of text:)

Swoogie McDoogie

Originally posted by googajoob7

please post a recent link (anytime in 2009) from the official world of warcraft site states they have 13 million million subscribers at the moment or at any point this year .
 

Sorry I don't visit the official site :(

I read the 13.1 million on wow.com and they mention where they got the numbers.

http://www.wow.com/2009/09/29/is-wows-audience-still-increasing/

Originally posted by Murashu

How is it that a game that boasts some 13 million players has a problem getting 40 people to work together? Older games like EQ, which had around 500k players at peak, were quite capable of putting together 72+ man raids.

  I think that overall statement is flawed. For one , no one said 40 man raids didn't happen. The overall community ... which is casual complained about it. There was a a HUGE gap in classic between raiding guilds and smaller guilds. I would guess the same percentage of people could raid 40 man in WoW as 72 in EQ.

 You would have to excuse my assumption though If everyone raided 72+ in EQ. I ws guessing not, but If everyone did and you could easily throw pugs together as well ... then I would have no earthly idea why they could not in WoW.

Originally posted by cukimunga

Originally posted by Murashu

How is it that a game that boasts some 13 million players has a problem getting 40 people to work together?<~~~ LOL

Older games like EQ, which had around 500k players at peak, were quite capable of putting together 72+ man raids.

 

The reason why WoW has problems with the 40 mans is because a lot of people just don't have patients to wait on a party. People now days are all I want it and I want it now, running through dungeons lightning speed and when your done everyone jets.  When I played WoW i got to level 50 and got bored of solofesting all these crappy quests and going through the endless grind of getting gear.  You get a piece and you level so damn quick in the game in a day or 2 its obsolete and you have to go through another mindless speed run through another dungeon.

I guess my pace of gaming is slower than most the people in the world.  I just like to chill in parties and go out and adventure, I could care less about all these crappy kill x monster bullshit. If you're going to make quests make fewer longer and more interesting quests, but I guess that's not what the masses want.

While this method is accepted by the masses becuase of its ease, it is not the best method to use. There are other ways of making a game easy, social, and fun(subjective I know)  without doing the kill 15 animals/humaniods. 

Games need to cut back on the crap quests and only have quality and important quests. I really dont give a damn if I get 15 boar intestines and give it to the Church so the orphans can eat. Keep experience speedy and focus on the group content OUTSIDE of instances/dungeons. Im not gonna go into detail.

Blizzard designs instances specically for a set amount of people. So, if its a 10 man raid then the trash and bosses will be balanced to be killed with 10 people.

If its a multi target boss encounter then the 10 man raid will be designed for 2 tanks, 3 healers and 5 DPS.

If you remove 1 or 2 of those raid members how do you rebalance the raid encounter?

If you remove a DPS then the boss health would have to lowered. If you remove a healer then the boss damage would have to be lowered. If you remove a tank then the number mobs would have to be lowered.

And thats just the mechanics of the raid instance. Loot is an entirely different and much stickier problem.

This clearly illustrates why Blizzard makes MMOs and people Garrett Fuller writes about them. People like Garrett Fuller dont understand the "big picture" or the "ripple effect".

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Blizzard designs instances specically for a set amount of people. So, if its a 10 man raid then the trash and bosses will be balanced to be killed with 10 people.

If its a multi target boss encounter then the 10 man raid will be designed for 2 tanks, 3 healers and 5 DPS.

If you remove 1 or 2 of those raid members how do you rebalance the raid encounter?

If you remove a DPS then the boss health would have to lowered. If you remove a healer then the boss damage would have to be lowered. If you remove a tank then the number mobs would have to be lowered.

And thats just the mechanics of the raid instance. Loot is an entirely different and much stickier problem.

This clearly illustrates why Blizzard makes MMOs and people Garrett Fuller writes about them. People like Garrett Fuller dont understand the "big picture" or the "ripple effect".

Did you just read the OP and then begin your rant?

Had you read subsequent posts you'd know that it's believed that it can be done with the use of a formula that works out how difficult an encounter should be based on the group that attacks the NPC. If the Tank is removed prior to the fight then it doesn't matter because the mob gets "retooled" in difficulty at the commencement of that particular fight.

I'd like to note that this could be used for non-instanced mobs as well. PvE need not be confined to specific zones based on your level. This could be capped of course to not allow a level 5 to run through the Plaguelands unhindered. But will allow a level 45 in there where the next drops are that they might need to upgrade their gear.

Originally posted by cukimunga

If you&apos;re going to make quests make fewer longer and more interesting quests, but I guess that&apos;s not what the masses want.

That is what I miss about games like EQ. They had quests but they were longer, more challenging and thus more rewarding when you accomplished them. Quests in most MMOs today are nothing but a replacement for adventuring and killing mobs. They arent fun or rewarding.

Originally posted by Bama1267

Originally posted by Murashu

How is it that a game that boasts some 13 million players has a problem getting 40 people to work together? Older games like EQ, which had around 500k players at peak, were quite capable of putting together 72+ man raids.

 

  I think that overall statement is flawed. For one , no one said 40 man raids didn't happen. The overall community ... which is casual complained about it. There was a a HUGE gap in classic between raiding guilds and smaller guilds. I would guess the same percentage of people could raid 40 man in WoW as 72 in EQ.

 You would have to excuse my assumption though If everyone raided 72+ in EQ. I ws guessing not, but If everyone did and you could easily throw pugs together as well ... then I would have no earthly idea why they could not in WoW.

The OP didnt say they were not happening either, he said "getting 40 people to do anything was so difficult". After playing WoW for a while I agree with him and expressed why I think it has come to that.

Xiako sounds just like my brother. I love him, but when he plays WoW, hes an ASS.

Finding/Waiting around for a group is a PITA. Recalculating a mobs would be easy...and...why not lower EPL mobs to lvl 5 for a lvl 5 guy? If he ran all the way there, then he deserves it!  I've long thought that the RPG system is pretty rediculous.  In a FPS game, all you need is a gun and you can kill the guy whose been playing for 5 years.  Why is a white quality sword at lvl 1 1dps and at lvl 80, so much higher? 

Retooling loot is ALSO a no brainer. Scale it to their level. A lvl 5 guy is in ulduar with a lvl  65 and a lvl 80. If you equip it, then it scales to your level...and when you level, it scales again ;)   *That was easy*

The hard part is HOW MUCH loot.  In a 10 man OS run, you get a few items. On a 25 man, you get roughly 2.5x the number of drops. So...lower drop rate or number of items dropped in an intsance by the percentage.  How you say? Well Wow makes that easy as well. There are 1000s of items, and they each have an item level.  Give me drops that add up to that percent less...I can still get the purple that this boss drops, but other purple ends up as a blue...or a green (yuck). You could easily whipe up an equation that fills in the rounded off "item level" poitns with gold or something.

ANYWAY. If you take three seconds to talk about it, there is usually a solution.

Instances Need tanks and Healers. How would you scale if there were no tanks or no healers? (those two are often the most difficult to find).  I can't think of an easy way around their need.  Once again, i'm reminded of other action RPG games that don't even have healers...healing is done with potions and food. Perhaps an instance with no healers, removes the global cool down on health pots....but you'd spend a lot on potions! 

Whatever, where there is a will theres a way.

From all my discussion about changes to MMO's, the number one cause not to change things is $$.

MMO's are all about repeatable content....not only repeatable for the individual, but repeatable by millions of people...this is why the world is "persistant" so that someone else can do the quest I just finished.

In my mind, I see altering the instance to match the number and type of players as something that would make it MORE repeatable.

total bullshit.

i started raiding in the days of a 6 million playerbase when we were taking 5 people to pug the old 15-man instances and your 40-man consisted of 25 good players and 15 also-rans.

when they introduced the 20-man instances it was like the seas parted and we rolled the new bosses.

now you're telling me it's too hard to field 25 players when the playerbase has doubled?

screw you.

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Originally posted by cukimunga  You get a piece and you level so damn quick in the game in a day or 2 its obsolete and you have to go through another mindless speed run through another dungeon.

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my first wow dungeon was a vc run by a 43 pally and i was so bored that i left every group after that had someone who overleveled it.

YOU SUCK if you found dungeon runthroughs boring yet went through them of your own volition. if max level players got you gear so fast that you couldn't enjoy it, it's a failure of YOUR OWN DAMN SELF and not the design of the game.

Originally posted by axhed

 

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Originally posted by cukimunga  You get a piece and you level so damn quick in the game in a day or 2 its obsolete and you have to go through another mindless speed run through another dungeon.

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screw you too.

 

my first wow dungeon was a vc run by a 43 pally and i was so bored that i left every group after that had someone who overleveled it.

YOU SUCK if you found dungeon runthroughs boring yet went through them of your own volition. if max level players got you gear so fast that you couldn't enjoy it, it's a failure of YOUR OWN DAMN SELF and not the design of the game.

Thats right. Everyone sucks except WOW and the drooling epeen swinging  fanbois .  Man, they just dont get it do they?

Originally posted by Unrivaled1

I pay the same $15/month as everyone else and have long been discontent with why I must group in order to get the good gear. I am anti-social and I know it, but I much prefer to conquer all by my lonesome. If I enter The Eye solo (can you imagine it?) and every battle in there are just as difficult (respectively) for me as they are for a 25 man raid group then why shouldn't I be entitled to the same loot they would get?

I don't want to sound like I'm picking on you here, but I just wanted to point out two things within this paragraph which I see as possible flaws in your argument. First, the statement about wanting to conquer all by your lonesome.  MMOs are inherently set up for the social aspect of gaming, and as such, for anti-social people (of which I am as well) one either has to live with it or go play single-player games.

The second issue I have to address is the word you used in the last sentence of the quoted paragraph: entitled. Too often, and not only in the gaming culture, am I witness to people who have entitlement issues.  Just because you pay to play the game does not entitle you to anything aside from the experience. You have to put the effort into it to reap the rewards.

Of course, my entire reply here is just my opinion. Jussayin'.