I'll keep this short and simple. Why is

a) An experience grind (e.g. killing mobs over and over as the way to level)

BAD, but

b) A gold and item grind (e.g. killing mobs over and over as the way to make money and gain equipment)

ACCEPTABLE?

They are both achievement via a repetitive task, yet a) is vilified while b) is not.

Probably because with b) you get phat lootz.  That being said I dislike b) even more than a).

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Probably because with b) you get phat lootz.  That being said I dislike b) even more than a).

THIS

You usually get to choose if you want to b) but not a), hows the survey going btw? Are you doing demographics as well?

I hate them both.  I don't want to have to do the same repetitive nonsense over and over no matter what the carrot is.  If I can't stomach it, I stop playing and that's the problem with most games.  The trick to having a non-grindy grind is to have a massive number of different things to do so that every time you log on, your experience is different.  If you're just doing the same thing, going on the same quests, killing the same monsters over and over and over, why bother?

None of those is acceptable.

Any of those you mentioned can be acceptable if its fun and entertaining.

Repetition without fun and entertainment can become a grind.

The problem is that nowadays MMOs stopped evolving the games into being fun and entertaining and instead, started to copy the overused formula of what initially provides fun and entertaiment.

The game mechanics they use, separate everything into levels/classes/areas, starting area/end game, and so on. This creates a threadmill effect in wich players must transverse to progress and eventually they would reach an "end". Normally such school of design decision comes attached with cheap solutions, like lack of content or investment into creativity, therefore, once players reach their "end game", the proposed (imposed since the start) goal is completed.

To prevent players from "finishing" it, they have to keep creating more content or use yet another cheap solution: artificially increase the game longevity.

In games wich evolved from everquest, the game longevity concept is how long does a new character takes to reach the "end game", wich is another concept itself that usually encompasses reaching max level and defeating/accomplishing the last (i.e harder) contents and activities.

As I said, to increase the game longevity artificially, they simply change the XP requirements for each level, or change the xp reward for each activity at their will or any other easilly tweakable value that doesnt take too much time, effort or development investment to do.

The problem is that such strategy has side effects, the biggest one is what came to be called "grind".

What initially would be considered fun and entertaining can also become a grind, all activities. (This is where your assumption is wrong)

Grind in a lato sensu would be any activity that is imposed or estimulated (anything that is present as a requisite for progress, either vertical or horizontal) by game design decisions that require players "time and effort", wich is not considered fun and entertaining (this last part is the subjective evaluative element)

To help you TS,

The grind hipocrisy as I see it is not from the part of players, but from the developers side: "trying to increase the game longevity artificially forcing activities not considered fun and entertaining".

Its not a paradox or anything complicated to understand. Its not impossible to solve either.

People think all games are like that, or that it would be impossible to do differently and that grind is a necessity and is excusable because "others games do the same".

Its very easy to solve the problem, just have to force your brain out of the contaminated everquest design philosophy of "everyone follows a determined path" and erase concepts such as levels, classes, endgame and many others. This only brings more problems than solutions: achieve an unachievable balance, deevaluating the journey rather than the destination, the impossibility paradoxal idea of "everyone is a hero", the strict focus on combat to progress... and many other modern problems derived from this school of mmorpg design decisions.

I don't get the impression players are that much more accepting of gear-grind vs. level-grinding.  It's all grind.

"Grind" isn't a type of gameplay.  There's no "gameplay vs. grind", there is just gameplay.  "Grind" is a word players use to describe particularly repetitive gameplay.  In other words, they've figured out the pattern of gameplay and the pattern hasn't changed recently, so it's "grindy".

Defeating mobs for hours with the exact same sequence of ability with no variation is excessive grindiness.

Defeating mobs with variation in ability usage, and periodically returning to town to turn in quests, and periodically doing non-killing activities to complete quests, all of these cause a game to feel less grindy.

Games have to balance how much variance they have though.  A lot of the enjoyment in gaming comes from the sensation of mastering a skill, and if the game is constantly changing you won't get that.  So it's a delicate balance of creating a core system which is fun, and then creating variations on that core pattern.

So what reasons might make gear-grind more acceptable than level-grind?

• You have all your skills.  You're no longer dealing with a half-formed character who might lack some crucial skills.
• The most interesting and challenging content is typically found at endgame.
• Group content is typically more abundant at endgame.  Which is unfortunate because teamplay is an automatic way for a game to have a bunch of gameplay variance.  This dungeon run we're going with a Paladin instead of a Warrior tank.  This dungeon run our DPSer is frickin amazing.  This dungeon run I'm going to have to mitigate damage extra well because the healer sucks.  This dungeon run I'm going to have to masterloot because this jerk seems like he'll ninja some loot.  There's a ton of variance in dealing with people.

There are more reasons but none pop to mind at the moment.

* you dont have to change your equipment as offen once you reach "end game", so it finally feels like "permanent" reward and "solid" ground.

Well, so far we've got the perfect repetitive crap going on in the background. Great ambiance.

The problem is, that's all the games turn out to be. There's no excitement or distraction from the grind except for the occasional loot drop. It looks like this on an interest plot: interest is on the y-axis, time is on the x.

|

|

|                        _                                              _

|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ /      \_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /      \_ _

|_____________________________________________

Not very exciting.

This is a common "fun" interest plot:

|                                                            _ _

|                                                _ _ _ /        \_

|\               _ _ _ _            _ _/                         \_

|   \_ _ _ /              \_ _ _/                                     \_ _ _ /

|_______________________________________________

Games just need more exciting stuff to happen unexpectedly during "the grind." Exciting stuff that doesn't punish you.

Isn't killing mobs for gold and loot called "farming"?

If you think your effort is sufficiently rewarded it is not grind, that’s the key to removing the grind. But at the top levels it becomes harder and harder to balance the rewards. So you need to expend a lot more effort for your rewards and a feeling of grind creeps in.

Originally posted by Scot

If you think your effort is sufficiently rewarded it is not grind, that’s the key to removing the grind. But at the top levels it becomes harder and harder to balance the rewards. So you need to expend a lot more effort for your rewards and a feeling of grind creeps in.

I sort of see where you're going with that, but I just keep imagining a "kill 10,000 of a specific mob" quest that yields a permanent +50% damage increase to my character.  Insane reward, and probably time-effective for the ~80 hours you might invest accomplishing such a quest.  But how could that not be described as a grind?

Only way it's not a grind is if combat is consistently enjoyable, which would be contingent on whether combat had enough variation.  Because without gamevariation it's 80 hours of the exact same 30-second fight replayed 10,000 times, and that's going to seem like a grind despite the reward being worth it.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Scot

If you think your effort is sufficiently rewarded it is not grind, that’s the key to removing the grind. But at the top levels it becomes harder and harder to balance the rewards. So you need to expend a lot more effort for your rewards and a feeling of grind creeps in.

 

I sort of see where you're going with that, but I just keep imagining a "kill 10,000 of a specific mob" quest that yields a permanent +50% damage increase to my character.  Insane reward, and probably time-effective for the ~80 hours you might invest accomplishing such a quest.  But how could that not be described as a grind?

Only way it's not a grind is if combat is consistently enjoyable, which would be contingent on whether combat had enough variation.  Because without gamevariation it's 80 hours of the exact same 30-second fight replayed 10,000 times, and that's going to seem like a grind despite the reward being worth it.

 

This is true.

There are other threads around about realism in MMO. Well, there is grind in real life...

I know the argument is generally "well, I paly a game to have fun, not to do the same boring things as in real life".

I guess the balanicng point is really the notion of fun: as long as you have fun, it,s not grind. Unfortunately, everyone has a different definition of "fun"...

I believe because gold and item grinding has an immediate benifit or sense of benifit and accomplishment, wheras Level grindings does not. When you get uber purple item after 3 days grinding you are elated. Compare that with 3 days of XP grinding where you go from Level 26 to 27 (with no new spells or abilities granted)

Neither one of them is ok in my book.  This genre needs a new look on progression.

meh. forget this post, WTB better E-plorz

Grinding in an MMO is the repetitive process of staying in a spot, or area, and killing the same NPCs until you reach the next level(s).

It reallys annoys me when people try to apply grinding to questing and farming.  There is a difference.

Originally posted by kamenwati

I'll keep this short and simple. Why is

a) An experience grind (e.g. killing mobs over and over as the way to level)

BAD, but

b) A gold and item grind (e.g. killing mobs over and over as the way to make money and gain equipment)

ACCEPTABLE?

They are both achievement via a repetitive task, yet a) is vilified while b) is not.

Grind is a playstyle people put onto themselfs.

Example of what I mean by saying that it is a playstyle people put onto themselfs.

Let's say JOE pickes up a quest where he needs to kill 300 wolves, he already thinks that that it will take him some time, but eventually he goes out trying to kill those 300 wolves, makes him feel like he is grinding. Now I take the quest, read I need to kill 300 wolves and I think to myself good thing this is a MMORPG and I could kill perhaps a few today, perhaps some more tommorow/next week/month, I just stay clear from repetitive tasks, not sure why people do that to themselfs and yet will complain about it as if it's the games fault for their limited playstyle.

So in short if people have fun with A so be it, games are played to have fun aint they? If people have fun with B then also good.

Originally posted by Chealar

I guess the balanicng point is really the notion of fun: as long as you have fun, it,s not grind. Unfortunately, everyone has a different definition of "fun"...

Scientifically speaking: Fun is "polite" distraction and variation in ambiance that retains one's curiosity and suspension of disbelief.

Essentially, fun can be plotted on a graph with Interest / Time. Fun is measuring one's Interest in the subject in terms of Time. Variation in ambiance creates interest through curiosity. Too much variation shatters suspension of disbelief, too little fails to pique curiosity; both phenomenons cause interest to fall over time.

What is "too much" or "too little" variation? That's the subjective nature of fun - every person has different experiences that dictate their preferred interest curves (amount of variation over time) as well as what may be considered variation or not.

Comedians, musicians, magicians, artists, writers, actors, etc. all use this as a basis of their styles of entertainment, whether they know it or not.

Just saying, everyone has the same definition of fun, they just call it different things. "A rose by any other name..."

I just love that we are even able to have this kind of topic about gaming. I used to know people that would play Pac-Man (or any other popular video game) for hours and hours and hours. Talk about a repetitive task with no variation!

As usual Axehilt nailed it with his comments about variation. I bet you could take almost any complaint about a grind in any game and simply translate what they are saying into 'lack of variation'.

There are tons of things that can add variation to the gameplay.

• Responding to different types of AI in combat
• Having multiple ways to complete combat (although most of us would simply fall into a pattern)
• Changes in your environment like WAR started in their PQ's (or CoX zone events)
• Crafting mixed in with adventuring
• DDO style traps, secrets, lockpicking (love these and they are totally underused)
• Training, gear changes or otherwise tweaking of your character
• Travel
• Socializing (not really a feature of the game though)
• Story telling elements (NPC conversations, DM-style text, quest dialog, etc)

There must be a ton more of these. If a game has too few of these or can't properly balance them then it can feel grindy fast.