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10/06/09 11:36:12 AM#21
Originally posted by Caleveira
Thats Forgotten Realms stuff (D&D guys did go overboard for a while with the idea of campaign settings) which while i did like better than kiddie material like Dragonlance, was still far from that much fun in the first place. My friends and i did play in that world for a while (i liked the detailed religions at first, so i actually tried priests) but the thing was ridiculous (as well as getting expensive). In the end we sorta became purists because of those products. We stuck to just the three core books and played in our own settings where wed got rid of magic everythings (Forgotten Realms got to be as camp as 60s Batman, with people ordering take out food via spells). If someone used the brand to spin a couple of video games (i remember some Dark Sun stuff too) good for them, they very likely had more depth than the pnp stuff or the novels. You cant really claim those as examples because the base material was never good in the first place. I think Forgotten Realms mustve been the last of those brands to die, i remember it being the biggest but it was far from the best. White Wolfs game was out (we learned from D&D, only bought one set of corebooks and the clanbooks) so i never noticed when those books went out of print even tho they were sitting on the shelf right next to the one i was getting most of my stuff from. I remember years later i found some Forgotten Realms books at the 3 for $1 bin at the comic book store. It's not about your tastes. Complain all you like, but these games are considered CRPG classics. Some even say they are the best second-wave CRPGs (with the first being Wizardry, Ultima. Bard's Tale and Might and Magic) around. So yeah, sorry for being with the crowd for once and liking the single most popular DnD setting. P.S. What's campy about mundane utility of magic? EDIT: Seriously, complain all you like about the setting, but remember NWN 1-2? Those gave you awesome level editors, and basically said "here, be your own bloody GM". I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again. |
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10/06/09 11:50:00 AM#22
Originally posted by Goronian It ends up not being magical? http://www.havenandhearth.com |
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10/06/09 12:32:51 PM#23
Originally posted by Goronian
Thats Forgotten Realms stuff (D&D guys did go overboard for a while with the idea of campaign settings) which while i did like better than kiddie material like Dragonlance, was still far from that much fun in the first place. My friends and i did play in that world for a while (i liked the detailed religions at first, so i actually tried priests) but the thing was ridiculous (as well as getting expensive). In the end we sorta became purists because of those products. We stuck to just the three core books and played in our own settings where wed got rid of magic everythings (Forgotten Realms got to be as camp as 60s Batman, with people ordering take out food via spells). If someone used the brand to spin a couple of video games (i remember some Dark Sun stuff too) good for them, they very likely had more depth than the pnp stuff or the novels. You cant really claim those as examples because the base material was never good in the first place. I think Forgotten Realms mustve been the last of those brands to die, i remember it being the biggest but it was far from the best. White Wolfs game was out (we learned from D&D, only bought one set of corebooks and the clanbooks) so i never noticed when those books went out of print even tho they were sitting on the shelf right next to the one i was getting most of my stuff from. I remember years later i found some Forgotten Realms books at the 3 for $1 bin at the comic book store. It's not about your tastes. Complain all you like, but these games are considered CRPG classics. Some even say they are the best second-wave CRPGs (with the first being Wizardry, Ultima. Bard's Tale and Might and Magic) around. So yeah, sorry for being with the crowd for once and liking the single most popular DnD setting. P.S. What's campy about mundane utility of magic? EDIT: Seriously, complain all you like about the setting, but remember NWN 1-2? Those gave you awesome level editors, and basically said "here, be your own bloody GM". Forgotten Realms was the WOW of pnp games, bland and uninspired gameplay which apealed to childish sensitivities. What was camp about it? It was the freaking flintstones! I had to deal with lost baggage in an "airport" for dragons because the guest GM decided "airline" employees didnt care for my "attitude" regarding their service... We had peanuts and an inflight movie! Its funny at first but it gets old fast... Did you think i tried any computer games after having read most of the source material? Ofc not, they might have left the silly stuff out of those but it didnt make the setting any less lame. But on to what we were discussing do you think the movies were any good? Ever tried reading D&D comics? For people who cant tell the diference it might apear this is what the game was about, i was merely suggesting that the OP stayed away from D&D stuff if he had a pnp background which is the reason i havent tried DDO myself. Geez, RPG "classics" were mostly unplayable for old school pnp RPGers... If it wasnt for Nes FFIV i probably wouldve given up on the genre as well... Just to make things clear... |
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10/06/09 12:56:59 PM#24
Originally posted by Caleveira
Er...wow. Are you really blaming the IP for your DM being bad? Really?! |
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10/06/09 1:14:30 PM#25
Originally posted by Axehilt
Er...wow. Are you really blaming the IP for your DM being bad? Really?!
LOL, no, that was a guest GM and we never had him over again. But source material actually was full of dumb stuff like that; magical post services, magical factories with production lines, gryphons and pegassi actually being used for mundane tasks, a magic telecomunications sector... They actually had a mythic creature (cant remember the name, it was originally intended to lurk in dungeons underground of manned forts) that would eat sewage, so even modern utility services were posible through magic... And really you dont want to get into gnomish lore, lets just say it coulve been the work of Eric Cartman. Like i said, freaking flintstones... Just to make things clear... |
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10/06/09 2:11:10 PM#26
Originally posted by Caleveira
LOL, no, that was a guest GM and we never had him over again. But source material actually was full of dumb stuff like that; magical post services, magical factories with production lines, gryphons and pegassi actually being used for mundane tasks, a magic telecomunications sector... They actually had a mythic creature (cant remember the name, it was originally intended to lurk in dungeons underground of manned forts) that would eat sewage, so even modern utility services were posible through magic... And really you dont want to get into gnomish lore, lets just say it coulve been the work of Eric Cartman. Like i said, freaking flintstones... So you didn't like the setting. Good for you, try not to impose it on anyone. And adding "lol" to your post really makes you mature, y'know. Just sayin', but the Mundane Utility is one of my favourite tropes. Why? Because it makes sense in a naturally evolving universe. Because it made sense in ours. "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", after all.
And on this "stops being magic" comment... You know, magic being forced into formulas and used for battles? That's not magic! Now "clap your hands, turn around and really-really believe", now that's what I call magic! Ahem. The games are still CRPG classics, with advanced rulesets, good storyline and deep immersive gameplay. Final Fantasy IS the WoW of Single-player RPGs. I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again. |
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10/06/09 2:27:37 PM#27
Originally posted by Neanderthal
so you think this is somhow special and related to D&D? you can enter every newbie zone in almost every other game and you might expierience the same. so what is the point of your post? ultra mega hard uber newbie zones???
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10/06/09 3:02:06 PM#28
Originally posted by Goronian
LOL, no, that was a guest GM and we never had him over again. But source material actually was full of dumb stuff like that; magical post services, magical factories with production lines, gryphons and pegassi actually being used for mundane tasks, a magic telecomunications sector... They actually had a mythic creature (cant remember the name, it was originally intended to lurk in dungeons underground of manned forts) that would eat sewage, so even modern utility services were posible through magic... And really you dont want to get into gnomish lore, lets just say it coulve been the work of Eric Cartman. Like i said, freaking flintstones... So you didn't like the setting. Good for you, try not to impose it on anyone. And adding "lol" to your post really makes you mature, y'know. Just sayin', but the Mundane Utility is one of my favourite tropes. Why? Because it makes sense in a naturally evolving universe. Because it made sense in ours. "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", after all.
And on this "stops being magic" comment... You know, magic being forced into formulas and used for battles? That's not magic! Now "clap your hands, turn around and really-really believe", now that's what I call magic! Ahem. The games are still CRPG classics, with advanced rulesets, good storyline and deep immersive gameplay. Final Fantasy IS the WoW of Single-player RPGs.
Im not against mundane utility per se, it actually works on some settings. Forgotten Realms tried to be everything at once, it had Ravenlofts style dark settings alongside Dragonlance style racial conflicts alongside Dark Sun inspired gritty wars plus pirates and bunnies and i dont even want to remember what else... Planescape had a wonderful technofantasy magic style, it worked for that setting. Forgotten Realms was kinda like having Aion chars alongside WOWs alongside Requiems alongside Freerealms, get the picture? It had no style just a bunch of ideas thrown together of whatever they thought was cool. Ive said nothing about the videogames other than they really mustve ignored the lore if they were any good. Stop defending an IP you obviously never experienced or actually put some good arguments on the table. And as for your final fantasy comment its no ones fault you got a Sega. Just to make things clear... |
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10/06/09 4:03:47 PM#29
Originally posted by Caleveira Har
Im not against mundane utility per se, it actually works on some settings. Forgotten Realms tried to be everything at once, it had Ravenlofts style dark settings alongside Dragonlance style racial conflicts alongside Dark Sun inspired gritty wars plus pirates and bunnies and i dont even want to remember what else... Planescape had a wonderful technofantasy magic style, it worked for that setting. Forgotten Realms was kinda like having Aion chars alongside WOWs alongside Requiems alongside Freerealms, get the picture? It had no style just a bunch of ideas thrown together of whatever they thought was cool. Ive said nothing about the videogames other than they really mustve ignored the lore if they were any good. Stop defending an IP you obviously never experienced or actually put some good arguments on the table. And as for your final fantasy comment its no ones fault you got a Sega. Ooh, you made me remember what is often cited as the best CRPG ever made. Planescape: Tornment. Game, set, match. And as far as I'm concerned, I grew up with a PC. My RPG of choice is Might and Magic. P.S. I don't hate Final Fantasy, but the gameplay in JRPGs is... Well, a little bland and simplistic for me. Can't even create a bloody character, what's up with that? I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again. |
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10/06/09 4:47:09 PM#30
Originally posted by Goronian Har
Im not against mundane utility per se, it actually works on some settings. Forgotten Realms tried to be everything at once, it had Ravenlofts style dark settings alongside Dragonlance style racial conflicts alongside Dark Sun inspired gritty wars plus pirates and bunnies and i dont even want to remember what else... Planescape had a wonderful technofantasy magic style, it worked for that setting. Forgotten Realms was kinda like having Aion chars alongside WOWs alongside Requiems alongside Freerealms, get the picture? It had no style just a bunch of ideas thrown together of whatever they thought was cool. Ive said nothing about the videogames other than they really mustve ignored the lore if they were any good. Stop defending an IP you obviously never experienced or actually put some good arguments on the table. And as for your final fantasy comment its no ones fault you got a Sega. Ooh, you made me remember what is often cited as the best CRPG ever made. Planescape: Tornment. Game, set, match. And as far as I'm concerned, I grew up with a PC. My RPG of choice is Might and Magic. P.S. I don't hate Final Fantasy, but the gameplay in JRPGs is... Well, a little bland and simplistic for me. Can't even create a bloody character, what's up with that?
What part of pnp players wouldnt like those games do you not understand? My first pc was an Atari, i had the privilege of spending quality time in my childhood writing code just so i could see the screen change colors or hear the the computer beep. Oh, but i could save that in casette format... I remember that little classic of yours, you couldnt create a bloody character in that one either. Planescape was all looks but no depth, we only tried that game because of the aesthetics but the lore was disapointing. Here you are exploring the afterworld in all its complexity just to find a few bosses with the customary high hit point count. Campaign settings did once in a while offer good mechanics and decent reading but overall they were just hyped fluff. Their evil legacy on computer games lies precisely in the idea that a new "theme" and the same old monsters with a revamped look is all thats required for an expansion. Planescape borrowed its imagery from other sources and itself left nothing. Other than the popularity of drow elves you could very much say the same of Forgotten Realms. Final Fantasys bland and simplistic elements were state of the art for its time. Just to make things clear... |
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10/06/09 4:54:50 PM#31
Originally posted by Caleveira
Im not against mundane utility per se, it actually works on some settings. Forgotten Realms tried to be everything at once, it had Ravenlofts style dark settings alongside Dragonlance style racial conflicts alongside Dark Sun inspired gritty wars plus pirates and bunnies and i dont even want to remember what else... Planescape had a wonderful technofantasy magic style, it worked for that setting. Forgotten Realms was kinda like having Aion chars alongside WOWs alongside Requiems alongside Freerealms, get the picture? It had no style just a bunch of ideas thrown together of whatever they thought was cool. Ive said nothing about the videogames other than they really mustve ignored the lore if they were any good. Stop defending an IP you obviously never experienced or actually put some good arguments on the table. And as for your final fantasy comment its no ones fault you got a Sega. Ooh, you made me remember what is often cited as the best CRPG ever made. Planescape: Tornment. Game, set, match. And as far as I'm concerned, I grew up with a PC. My RPG of choice is Might and Magic. P.S. I don't hate Final Fantasy, but the gameplay in JRPGs is... Well, a little bland and simplistic for me. Can't even create a bloody character, what's up with that?
What part of pnp players wouldnt like those games do you not understand? My first pc was an Atari, i had the privilege of spending quality time in my childhood writing code just so i could see the screen change colors or hear the the computer beep. Oh, but i could save that in casette format... I remember that little classic of yours, you couldnt create a bloody character in that one either. Planescape was all looks but no depth, we only tried that game because of the aesthetics but the lore was disapointing. Here you are exploring the afterworld in all its complexity just to find a few bosses with the customary high hit point count. Campaign settings did once in a while offer good mechanics and decent reading but overall they were just hyped fluff. Their evil legacy on computer games lies precisely in the idea that a new "theme" and the same old monsters with a revamped look is all thats required for an expansion. Planescape borrowed its imagery from other sources and itself left nothing. Other than the popularity of drow elves you could very much say the same of Forgotten Realms. Final Fantasys bland and simplistic elements were state of the art for its time. Oh, but at least you could influence him, both story- and progression-wise. You weren't confounded to the rails, like you always are in FF. FFs look good, but, like with women, I prefer some maturity, and an opportunity to have a good talk. P.S. Have we derailed this thread enough? P.P.S. And why are you speaking, like you are some kind of a representative for the entire PnP player population? I know a lot of PnPers, who adore these games. Speak for yourself, buddy. I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again. |
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10/06/09 5:17:32 PM#32
@ Goronian; I was giving my opinion at OP, youre the one who got it in you to derail the thread. And it is your friends, who actually played pnp D&D that should rebuke me, not you. Do you always answer posts on subjects on which you have no experience? Please, by all means enlighten me some more on this subject youre clueless about. Just to make things clear... |
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Originally posted by Goronian
You dang nerds spewing all your nerd stuff all over my thread! Heh, actually it's fine. I get the impression that only a few people understood what I was trying to say anyway. I think we've reached the point of having a clear generation gap among mmo gamers such that the younger often lack a common frame of reference with the older and so sometimes it's like trying to explain "blue" to a color blind person. Oh, and please don't take offense at the nerd comment. I once programed a TRS-80 with a bunch of monster info and combat tables and stuff to make DMing games a little easier so I meant no ill by that comment. |
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10/06/09 9:48:18 PM#34
Originally posted by Caleveira
When you post your opinion please try to say "this is my opinion" and not "I speak with the will of all PnP gamers". One makes you look considerably more foolish than the other. Especially since I played PnP RPGs, and videogame RPGs and have thoroughly enjoyed both. |
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10/06/09 10:58:53 PM#35
Originally posted by Axehilt
When you post your opinion please try to say "this is my opinion" and not "I speak with the will of all PnP gamers". One makes you look considerably more foolish than the other. Especially since I played PnP RPGs, and videogame RPGs and have thoroughly enjoyed both.
Grow up, that was the third time i had to repeat myself so maybe it wasnt the best phrasing. And wouldnt you question someones good sense if they thought what i said was more fact than opinion? Quoting something out of context is an easy thing to do... And what about your opinion is exactly relevant to anything? We were discussing wether old school D&D players generally liked other D&D products (IMO only by exception) not which games are more enjoyable... If youre gonna attack what i say, you should at least have a clue as to what i was saying... unbelievable... Just to make things clear... |
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Wizardry
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 8/27/04
Remove quests,bosses and trigger them back in is called Dynamic events now?lol..i think not. |
10/06/09 11:10:25 PM#36
Know what? i deleted it after less than an hour.It is an ancient looking game,barely suitable for a console effort.It looks like a console game from long ago.Very simplistic in every approach of the game,i was so turned off,i didn't even need to think twice about removing from HD. It will never return to a pay game,i actually cannot believe it ever was a p2p game,heck F2P games are better than that junk.This game will very obviously die out very soon. http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w |
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10/06/09 11:33:19 PM#37
I liked the orgininal grey box Forgetten Realm setting and the Undercity Frogetten Realm setting. Not sure about all the lame crap you are talking about. But back in the late 1980's and early 1990's when Forgetten Realms first started it was good. Not sure what your purist ideas are unless you are playing with Red, White and Blue boxes of DnD. Even in those magic was essential to everything your character did. That is what set your character apart from the muldane in those was that you had magic. I remember when DnD was only a paper pamplet that laid out rules. I remember when it only used 6 sided dice. Ah those were so long ago. Dragonlance the original modules were a great story. Doing your own stuff in Dragonlance is stupid the history is laid out. It would have been fun to be in the group when the DM played out the story of Dragonlance and the players decided this would make a great story. |
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10/07/09 12:45:07 AM#38
Originally posted by Caleveira
I was talking about D&D PNP and D&D videogames. Therefore my opinion is plenty relevant as it directly contradicts your whole "all oldschool D&D gamers hate D&D videogames" rant. I could extend things to say that I think you're ridiculous for fixating so much on disliking mudane magickry, but that's just your opinion so I figured there was no point. But when you started sounding like you were talking for all oldschool D&D players, that's where you're being foolish. I mean if you wanted to criticize many D&D games for having lackluster combat systems, I'd be behind that. Despite telling excellent stories, that's the main reason they haven't been masterpieces of gaming. Eye of the Beholder was the only D&D game I really enjoyed a lot, largely because it adapted the combat system in a unique and actiony way. (although man, I tried the DS version of it not too long ago and that's gotta be one of the worst game ports I've ever played.) Still, the excellent stories make the majority of D&D games worth playing despite lousy combat. |
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10/07/09 1:18:31 AM#39
Originally posted by Horusra
Our box was the 1993 edition (just looked it up) we were playing AD&D 2nd edition, so we may have gotten diferent books. And we tried almost any RPG system or game out there, from Call of Ctchulhu to LOTR. We came to realize you need nothing but dice, pen and paper to roleplay so we may have become purists in the end. I stand by my critique of Forgotten Realms, even if perhaps i couldve phrased things better. The writing was subpar and the setting unimaginative, even then i knew better although i indulged in those books. We usually dont like to say this, but this games were an abuse and a dirty business. One or two books woulve been enough to play the game, but they were printing material by the ton in an almost quaterly basis and we were unexperienced enough to think we would be missing out on something if we didnt buy... And quality was really lacking, they even skimped on ilustrations (other than the cover ofc). We were smart enough to share expenses on my group but i knew people that were buying everything themselves, looking back on it it does seem like a waste... Forgotten Realms was probably the worst in that it failed to even try to provide quality, stand alone adventures were pretty much sad jokes. The whole point about forgotten realms was imitation (it became blatant in the end) of the renaissance world with silly names. Of other TSR licenced settings. And Ed Greenwood playing Elminster a la Richard Garriott. And a modern Flintstones type world through magic. You maybe had a diferent experience but this is my side of things. ed; spelling Just to make things clear... |
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10/07/09 1:28:16 AM#40
Originally posted by Axehilt
I was talking about D&D PNP and D&D videogames. Therefore my opinion is plenty relevant as it directly contradicts your whole "all oldschool D&D gamers hate D&D videogames" rant. I could extend things to say that I think you're ridiculous for fixating so much on disliking mudane magickry, but that's just your opinion so I figured there was no point. But when you started sounding like you were talking for all oldschool D&D players, that's where you're being foolish. I mean if you wanted to criticize many D&D games for having lackluster combat systems, I'd be behind that. Despite telling excellent stories, that's the main reason they haven't been masterpieces of gaming. Eye of the Beholder was the only D&D game I really enjoyed a lot, largely because it adapted the combat system in a unique and actiony way. (although man, I tried the DS version of it not too long ago and that's gotta be one of the worst game ports I've ever played.) Still, the excellent stories make the majority of D&D games worth playing despite lousy combat.
I wasnt out to attack D&D videogames, as you can read in the thread the whole thing got so mixed up with the Forgotten Realms thing it kind of devolved into flaming... Youre right i dont speak for all old schoolers. I will say most of the people ive kept in touch with do agree with my pov. Just to make things clear... |
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