Originally posted by comerb

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am curious. Its pretty established that reaching lvl 20+ in Aion is bit of a grind.

Actually reaching level 20 will take about a day or two and you'll be questing all the way.

Really?

Why than some other posts say its humonguous grind to reach lvl 20 ?

 

It only takes a day or two if you play 8+ hours a day.  It takes the average person who drops maybe a couple hours a day around a week or two.

Even with casual play, if you take longer than a week to reach level 20 you're doing something very wrong.

Originally posted by fiontar

There is nothing better about PvP or RvR in this game. Both games are flawed.

I participated in a successful Fortress Capture in the Abyss a few days ago. That was the most boring game experience I have had in an MMORPG. Ever. 30 minutes to break down the gate. Mobs provided no twist on the challenge. An hour of 50+ people pounding on a boss with no challenge beyond the insane HP pool. No real reward either, beyond bragging rights.

No segregation of higher level players from lower level players, so power levelers and their friends rule. (I've been traveling along with that leading edge, or near enough to it. I can't imagine entering the Abyss now at level 25).

Higher level toons get an additional bonus to mitigation and resists for every level they are higher than a foe. Once the level gap is 5+ not even the best equipped, most well played lower level character has much of a chance vs. a poorly equipped and played higher level foe.

People who ride the leading edge and enjoy ganking may get some continuing enjoyment from the game. Those who trail behind, or even those who keep pace while preferring their PvP to be challenging and fair, will tire of the PvP very quickly.

Of course, once you tire of PvP, you're close to done with playing the game, because from level 25+, your not going to escape it.

Wow.

That is a pretty damning analysis of end game.

Can we get confirmation or rebuttal from others who have end game experience?

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by fiontar

There is nothing better about PvP or RvR in this game. Both games are flawed.

I participated in a successful Fortress Capture in the Abyss a few days ago. That was the most boring game experience I have had in an MMORPG. Ever. 30 minutes to break down the gate. Mobs provided no twist on the challenge. An hour of 50+ people pounding on a boss with no challenge beyond the insane HP pool. No real reward either, beyond bragging rights.

No segregation of higher level players from lower level players, so power levelers and their friends rule. (I've been traveling along with that leading edge, or near enough to it. I can't imagine entering the Abyss now at level 25).

Higher level toons get an additional bonus to mitigation and resists for every level they are higher than a foe. Once the level gap is 5+ not even the best equipped, most well played lower level character has much of a chance vs. a poorly equipped and played higher level foe.

People who ride the leading edge and enjoy ganking may get some continuing enjoyment from the game. Those who trail behind, or even those who keep pace while preferring their PvP to be challenging and fair, will tire of the PvP very quickly.

Of course, once you tire of PvP, you're close to done with playing the game, because from level 25+, your not going to escape it.

Wow.

That is a pretty damning analysis of end game.

Can we get confirmation or rebuttal from others who have end game experience?

there is no one in Aion West who is even close to lvl 50+.  It is less than a percent for 41+. So I doubt there are many people who can say yay or nay.

I did take part in one siege where we kept an asmo legion from getting it and it was a blast. However the fort was much higher than any of the levels going for it so we couldn't take it down. But the pvp to keep them from getting it was fun. They ended up taking a fort the next day.

As far as the ganking, if a person is very senstive to it then they shouldn't play Aion. If they can shrug it off (you don't really lose much except some abyss points) then not only is it not a big deal but there are many times you will get aid and turn the tide.

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by Prazzy

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Paragus1

Half of the RvR in Warhammer is instanced, so right off the bat that gives Aion a big heads up over it.  

That point is debatable. Scenarios are optional, ad provide a much fairer match than open RvR does. Unless Aion has some mechanic I haven't heard about, it's as prone to zerging as Warhammer was.

 

 

Ummmm pretty sure thats what the AI race is for. From what I understand they act as both instigators and equalizers. Meaning, yeah sometimes they will all beam down from their spaceship things and F you up, but at other times, they are supposed to work more like an equalizing force, in that they will attack a heavily fortified base if the players attacking are of an inferior number, etc. (This is what NCsoft has stated on their website, and I'm not too sure whether it really takes effect until the higher abyss stuff, since the Balaur generally own all of the upper abyss)

 

How is that a desirable game feature? It's a ham handed fudge to punish the dominant side for their dominance, while not offering an benefit for the underdogs to improve their lot in life. It would be like addressing poverty not by helping people improve their position in life, but by taking everything from the wealthy when ever their assets exceed a set level. BTW, the Balaur are never going to help the underdogs win an objective, they never act as allies. Their entire role is that of spoilers.

They are in no way, shape or form a positive substitute for a third, human controlled faction.

Well I didnt say that they will straight up team with the lower numbered side. They would obviously engage both factions, though their objective would primarily be to beat of the fortress. I understand what you are saying about how it would hurt the dominant side, but ultimately this is a game, and I don't know about you, but I enjoy my games to be at least a little challenging, while not becoming either too easy or impossible, which is of course a possibility should one faction/legion become too powerful and no one on the opposing faction be able to challenge them.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, nor for that matter can I testify that I have had a chance to see this feature in action since I re-rolled on the new server and am only level 20. But I do think ultimately that the feature does more good than harm since it at least gives outcomes to predictable situations as certain amount of unpradictability.

(I would jsut liek to add, that from my understanding, the Balaur won't automatically jsut attack the base with the superior fighting force, but may simply take everyone on and try capturing the base themselves. Supposedly they are supposed to jsut work as a independant AI race)

Originally posted by Sovrath

As far as the ganking, if a person is very senstive to it then they shouldn't play Aion. If they can shrug it off (you don't really lose much except some abyss points) then not only is it not a big deal but there are many times you will get aid and turn the tide.

If mis-matches are typical, then the PvP is seriously flawed and lots of players will leave quickly after getting their fill of it.

Imbalance in PvP is a game-killer. It was a major factor in Warhammer's demise.

Is level imbalance in a level based game something new for you? Or you're just having this argument for the sake of it?

Originally posted by Xasapis

Is level imbalance in a level based game something new for you? Or you're just having this argument for the sake of it?

While it wasn't perfect, the bolster effect in warhammer was effective in addressing level imbalance in PvP. It did nothing for numerical or gear advantage, of course.

It didn't feel that effective at all when I was playing the game. Even on scenarios, where you don't have a numerical difference. The team with lots of people in the beginning of the tier was fighting an uphill battle vs the people in the end of the tier. If the end tier people were also organised, it was impossible to win.

Other games have even more severe differences in power between levels, so it's not an Aion phenomenon, but rather a byproduct of the level based design.

What may not be immediately noticeable is that along with leveling in Aion, your active and passive skills level as well. So for example, you may have smite 1, rank 4 and then take a book and learn smite 2, rank 1. The bigger tier spell will be better than the previous one, no matter the rank, but both active and passive abilities level up when you level. In this sense the gap between the level widens not only due to some resistance constant, but also due to more effective skills the higher up you are.

I have the feeling I'm derailing the thread though, so I'll stop here.

Now that you mention it...I really started to see clever antiganking design.

I never fared that good in PVP games.

But in WAR i was very good. In RVR i held the line with my Ironbreaker very often. And rained death with my Bright wizard, if i had protection of tanks. I even topped scenario scores quite often.

Why?

Because powerlevelers, twinked players, and high level characters didnt exist.

It was all on same level field!

But Aion is back to "I have more time invested in my character so you can not touch me" gank mechanism.

Sorry to say , thats not fun at all. Not to ganked and neither to ganker who wins not based on skill but on simple level disparity.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Is level imbalance in a level based game something new for you? Or you're just having this argument for the sake of it?

In Warhammer a high tier character going to a lower teir RvR zone is turned into a chicken that is insta-killed by any attack.

In Warhammer you can't queue for scenarios outside your tier.

In Warhammer there is no meaningful way (at least currently, the new apprentice system may change this somewhat) to 'twink'.

In Warhammer there is no corpse or spawn point camping. Your corpse is meaningless, save for someone to salvage, and you spawn in an area controlled by your faction.

In Warhammer a person at the lower level within their teir is automatically "blostered" any time they enter an RvR lake or SC. As previously stated, this doesn't completely level the playing field, but it helps.

If Warhammer did one thing right -- and arguably this may be the only thing -- it is prove that level imbalances in a level based PvP game could dealt with in such a way as to ensure an at least somewhat fair fight. 

There is no reason or excuse for any PvP  game to do otherwise.

Originally posted by Myria

 If Warhammer did one thing right -- and arguably this may be the only thing -- it is prove that level imbalances in a level based PvP game could dealt with in such a way as to ensure an at least somewhat fair fight. 

 There is no reason or excuse for any PvP  game to do otherwise.

Right. Believe it or not, Warhammer has raised the bar on this aspect of PvP.

Also, lowbies can swarm a higher level character and kill him. Which is virtually impossible in WoW.

Warhammer has a vast array of flaws, but it does some things very well.