Good post, and I agree.

I think that for most people who dislike FE's graphics, it is a case of either not liking the aesthetic or not being able to run their settings high enough to flesh the graphics out. They have just done some more optimizations for this by the way, so some of you may want to give it another try.

Here are some of my Fallen Earth screenshots. I think the game can look very good, I'm not even running on the highest settings either. Be sure to view in full size, they're widescreen.

http://www.mmorpg.com/galleries/stormina

Oh and about the dull colors, if you turn off "Post FX" that will take off the sepia filter, and as for green areas, there are some in S1 up north, and S2 and S3 also have their places, especially S3. I'll put some screenshots of these areas when I get there, but I am taking my time with this game, it's a really good game to play slowly, a lot to see.

Originally posted by kb056

Then again, this game is set in the Desert regen of the Grand Canyon...what can anyone expect from dirt and rocks??

lol...you mean besides the fact that the Grand Cayon, the red hills of Sadona, and the surrounding areas are probably the most unique and awe inspireing veiws in the U.S.

If anything they are so beautiful it's very hard (if even possible) to represent in a photograph or illustration/animation.

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

So, with absolutely all settings on max (external 8xFSAA 16xAniso), at 1280x1024, I'm getting 15-40 FPS in towns, 50-70 in the desert, and up to 120 in dungeons. I'd say, it' bearable :)

The low town FPS is due to those horrible, horrible amount of people, all rushing to try this game :D. Damn you, guys :D

I know, right?! The game would be *so* much better if it weren't for all those other people playing it! (sad thing is, I'm sure there are those who think that way)

Seriously, the memory handling is excellent, I might get low FPS in crowded places, but at least there are no 1-2 seconds stops for loading textures/meshes, that most other MMO's have (including my longest ever played MMO, Lotro...)

Yeah.. I honestly have had no substantial performance issues in FE, other than around crowded areas, but even then it's playable. 

DB

Originally posted by bverji

Originally posted by kb056

Then again, this game is set in the Desert regen of the Grand Canyon...what can anyone expect from dirt and rocks??

 

lol...you mean besides the fact that the Grand Cayon, the red hills of Sadona, and the surrounding areas are probably the most unique and awe inspireing veiws in the U.S.

If anything they are so beautiful it's very hard (if even possible) to represent in a photograph or illustration/animation.

How about this then bverji..

Red hills of Sadona ..

Originally posted by Lydon

Have some imagination already.

Lol, yeah right, if i use my imagination then i might as well not turn on my PC at all, and just day dream it all!

Would need some powerful hallucingens and i would be away!!!

On a serious note all Icarus Studios need to do is to hire a graphics optimiser to tweak the hell out of their current engine!

Originally posted by Hypodermica

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Yep. Most folks who state the graphics are horrible and that they are 1990s graphics haven't actually looked at and compared them side by side. Sure, aesthetics or beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I can agree with those who say they don't particularly like FE's graphical style. I personally don't like WoW's or Aion's. That's not to say they "suck". They just aren't to my liking. FE's graphics are certainly above average and in fact good. The multiple times people (including myself) have posted up comparison pictures on this forum it usually finds those making the 1990s graphics claims and that they are outright "horrible" backing off those claims and instead saying that they personally just don't like them.

Sure, somethings are universal truths. FE's graphics being horrible or outdated just isn't one of them. They just aren't rounded off, bright and shiny full of butterflies looking like a rainbow bright meets carebears meets my little pony mosh pit.

 

First impressions are always right. FE has bad graphics compared to the competition. There is no denying that. You're only deluding yourself if you're saying they are good or even average. Thats a whole different ball game if you say they are sufficient - but they still suck. When do you people realize that theres no smoke without fire. The reason why there are so much critisism is that the game really has bad graphics. I'd even go as far as to say the game animations and characters look a bit amateurish.

**cough** troll bait **cough

Yep, it's pretty plain to see this person is one who only believes that his viewpoint exists or if he does acknowledge the concept of other's viewpoints he certainly does not acknowledge that his views aren't universally right for everyone. So, yeah, there wasn't a point in responding to him. On the bright side, it let's you know who's worth having a discussion with and who will just argue against you no matter the point (i.e., the sky is blue today, the water is cold, the coffee is hot, etc.)

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Originally posted by nightbird305

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Originally posted by VultureSkull

The graphics don't suck, but leave a lot to be desired.

The engine need some serious optimisation, given the graphics quality i feel i should be getting over 100 FPS but i don't.

I have textures only appearing if i get close to an object and shrubs and bushes popping up close to me even though i can see other shrubs further away, this gives an impression of a struggling engine, even if it is not and with no way to turn off shrubs all together makes it worse.

Graphics don't make a game, but sure do help, imagne what FE would have been like with a fully optimised 3.0 shader graphics engine, removing any quibble about graphics -  almost perfect i would say!

 

 

Almost perfect, if you love slideshows...

 

People need to understand, that MMO's gfx is a completely whole different world than single player games' graphics.

-Not really but go on.

In a single player game, everything is static, scripted, in the best case some little AI is involved in determining, what is visible in the screen at a given moment. Thus, optimization is easy, at least relatively.

-Algorithm, not AI.

In an MMO, it is plainly impossible to determine, how many characters/horses/mobs etc etc a player can get on their screen at the same time. On top of this, all clients will need to work on synchronizing all that info 20-50 times per second, with the server, who does that with hundreds of clients.... the sheer work behind that is incredible, and simply cannot be compared.

- This doesn't matter. Many mmos who use "high" graphics engine (such as EQ2 when it was launched) have built in modes, where your PC will only render so many characters in high detail, the rest be rendered in low but acceptable detail (in EQ2 you could change how many were rendered etc, all depending on your PC's strength). Anyhow, the synchronization is not that big of a problem either, many mmos servers work by sending changed coordinants to the clients. So lets say your friend moved, the server gets this info from your friends client and the server sends the new location to your client so your client moves the character. You basically see the same thing in single player games, except without the internet aspect, which btw actually slows down the process, giving the client more time to sync the scene. But yeah, CPUs and GPU have become extremely powerful, and although you make it sound like it's an insane amount of calculating, it's all in a days work for a decent CPU.

This is why it is completely irrealistic to expect MMO's to be even remotely close to the visual quality of single player games, and it will never change - yes, they will get nicer, but will ALWAYS lag behind single games - and this is only strengthened by the fact that an MMO's development is twice or thrice the time of that of a single player game.

-I think you're missing the point. What about single player games with great graphics but which also have multiplayer? Unreal 3 has great graphics and has multiplayer of up to 128 people, and those home owned servers, imagine what it would be like on a comercial server and with an engine thats fine tuned for lots of players? MMO with good graphics doesn't seem so far fetched now does it?

Just think about it.

- Done

DB

-NB

 

Have you ever thought, why there is a limit in FPS multiplayer number limits? Yes, so they can be optimized. Dismissing the unforeseeable nature of true MMO graphics, with unpredictable number of players, where EACH ONE OF THEM can be differently dressed (again, unlike FPS multiplayers, where even if they are dressed differently, that is mostly just skins, not meshes, with no unique stats to be counted etc...), the comparison is just not valid, I'm sorry.

But even if it was, name one successful indepentend multiplayer shooter game (besides CS, lol)....

Finally, you just dismissed one of the most important aspects: development time....

Not a single MMO looks much nicer btw, vibrant colors do not mean better gfx.

DB

 

 

Ok I'm not going to keep this discussion going if you won't even read what I'm saying, but for the sake of arguement I'll respond this time.
First off, I said that games such as EQ2 have settings which lower the texture quality of the rendered character if there are more than a certain amount of characters on the screen. You can easially do the same with any game engine, infact the Unreal 3 engine uses a similar system, hell it even has a feature where it will load the mesh of a character and allow the player to move around with that mesh, before the textures are applied, severly reducing the load. Did you know that there are several mmos currently being made with the unreal 3 engine? and FPS engine mind you.
Multiplayer games have caps for several reasons, some don't support more than a certain amount because private servers cant handle the load, some have a certain amount because it's on a console, and some have a cap because the maps are too small otherwise... there's a million reasons. Saying that they limit the numbers to "optimize" the game is just vague, what I ment with optimize is that they can change the engine used in a multiplayer game, to allow more smooth gameplay (refer to previous EQ2 comment).
But all in all mate, you have no idea how game engines and databases work it seems. Displaying unique clothing on characters is not the hard part, the thing which takes the longest is loading the actual textures for the clothes, which is something that several engines already have a solution for (refer to unreal 3 playable mesh).
Not sure what you mean by "indepentend" multiplayer but here are some games that come mind are Battlefield, Quake, Unreal Tournament (especially 2004), Team fortress 2 etc etc I could go on.
Development time? Ok I know I'm bringing up the unreal 3 engine example up a lot but it's a good one. Any company can get a hold of a premade engine such as the unreal 3 engine, where all they have to do is create the environments,characters etc.. and do some programming to fit the gameplay. What the Fallen Earth guys did was go the cheap way and make the ENTIRE engine themselves, which is why it took as long as it did and why the graphics are mediocore.
Heh you saying that Fallen Earth is the best looking game out there just shows how disallusional you are, and wtf vibrant colors? When did I talk about that??

To finish off, I would just like to say that I have a bach in Computer Science (getting Master next summer) and I have worked on several online games already, so I'd like to think that I know what I'm talking about.  Oh and this was never intended as an arguement, I was just pointing out the flaws in your first statement. 

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Lydon

Have some imagination already.

 

Lol, yeah right, if i use my imagination then i might as well not turn on my PC at all, and just day dream it all!

Would need some powerful hallucingens and i would be away!!!

 

On a serious note all Icarus Studios need to do is to hire a graphics optimiser to tweak the hell out of their current engine!

 

Ohhh!  I got an idea!  We could setup an "Imagination" chat channel in the game and have a meditation specialist sit in there giving us instructions on how to meditate and focus our imaginations to make the graphics "appear" much much better.  We could sit in the desert and brainstorm, sitting indian style in a circle together doing our meditation hum and focussing on telepathic graphical improvement (TGI).  Wow... this game is AMAZING!  ESPECIALLY the graphics.  

This morning I played in my mind while having coffee and eating a donut in my office at work.  My secretary came in while I was imagining Fallen Earth (TGI) and I accidentally clubbed her over the head with my offfice chair and looted her purse!  God, best graphics EVER!

Originally posted by Hypodermica

Originally posted by VultureSkull

Originally posted by Lydon

Have some imagination already.

 

Lol, yeah right, if i use my imagination then i might as well not turn on my PC at all, and just day dream it all!

Would need some powerful hallucingens and i would be away!!!

 

On a serious note all Icarus Studios need to do is to hire a graphics optimiser to tweak the hell out of their current engine!

 

 

This morning I played in my mind while having coffee and eating a donut in my office at work.  My secretary came in while I was imagining Fallen Earth (TGI) and I accidentally clubbed her over the head with my offfice chair and looted her purse!  God, best graphics EVER!

Hahahaha xD

The problem with the graphics for most people is they are bland.  I understand that.  It isn't bright, it is earth colors(I love greens, browns, tans, and greys, they are the majority of the clothing I own)  But the reasoning is flawed for it to be that way.

We keep hereing its a post-Apocalypse game.  Caused by the Shiv virus, and nukes went off around us.  Now I'm not sure if they decided how many Nukes went off, but it could cause a nuclear winter.  History also has taught us that our earth changes its climate quite swiftly and this area could know be a in a different climate. (The Sahara Desert was grassland roughly 6,000 years ago)  Now add in radition and mutations, and we could have vibrant floral and a setting.  Will we see this?  I imagine in a future sector we will see a more vibrant and lush landscape.

Personally I do think the characters are a bit boxy looking and the animations are a bit stiff, but the overall art design and environments are great and lend to the feel of the game. 

It looks and feels desolate as you wander around, dead broke, looking for a copper deposit so you can make more ammo for your zip gun while whacking bandits to death with a 2x4 because they stand between you and your goal.

It's not shiny, but it does look good. 

Graphics are ok; Animation needs allot of work though ...especially death animation.
One thing I don’t like is when you go first person it looks like you have child hands

Originally posted by Hypodermica

So, before I bought this game a week ago I came to MMORPG.COM to see what the fuss is about.  I read the professional reviews and checked out the MMORPG user's ratings.  Here and there I noticed quite a few complaints about the graphics.  Hell, I've even read a few loyal fans of the game say things like "if you can get past the graphics, the gameplay is awesome". 

I was turned off.  I read that the graphics engine was made by some small, unknown company and that the engine is dated.  I was sad to see this.  Being someone with a 42 inch LCD and a nice rig, along with a full surround sound system... I was loosing interest real fast!  Now I know I know... graphics are not everything but it sure is sad to see a sexy setup like mine not getting to use it's full potential, especially when the game just came out!  Well, they say you shouldn't believe everything you read.

Well, what the heck.  I'm just not interested in many other MMO's and I need something unique, sci-fi, and involving.  So, I've given Fallen Earth a chance.

I installed, patched up, grabbed a cup of coffee along with a fresh new pack of smokes and devoted an evening to this so called "bad graphics" and "good gamplay" MMORPG... Fallen Earth.

So, what do I think of the graphics?  

 

:::::THE GRAPHICS DO NOT SUCK::::::::

 

No, i'm not some in-denial fanboy thankyouvermuch.  I'm a realist and sometimes a pessimist.  But when I read the following quotes from MMORPG's Rating section on this here game, I get confused:

wolf11223 writes:  Graphics are horrible.

markt50 writes:   ... it's graphics look dated...

Getalife writes:   If you can get past dated graphics...

 

Well... I figured I should try to figure this problem out.  Maybe it's just a perception issue. 

To figure it out I took screen shots off of MMORPG from 6 of the most popular/top-rated games and put them all into one big PNG file.  Here are the games I chose:

1.  Lord of The Rings Online (Voted #1 here on MMORPG)

2.  Atlantica (Voted #2 and I've seen it #1 a few times)

3.  Fallen Earth (Voted #3 Currently and #2 most popular based on the number of hits)

4.  EVE Online (Voted #4 but has been as high as #1)

5.  Aion (Voted #5 and #1 most popular based on hits)

6.  WoW (The most finacially successful MMO ever made)

So... we have some of the biggest, best, most successful, newest, and highly beloved games.  Have a look at them all together, side-by-side like a bunch of bimbos at a beauty pagent and you tell me that Fallen Earth's graphics are an epic failure sitting right next to the super-stars.

HERE is the Flickr link to the 2.83mb PNG file showing all 6 MMO's.  I highly recommend you download the full sized image and take a good hard look...

I know it's really, just a matter of opinion but FE looks fantastic next to the others.  Aion looks great, but for me it's not realistic looking and the style is not to my taste.  WoW is horrible, nuff said.  EVE looks great, but in it's own kind of way.  Atlantica doesn't impress me... are his feet floating above the ground? Seems like the character models don't meld well with the ground textures to me.  LOTRO looks "good" and you can't go wrong with Tolkien's imagination.  As far as realism goes, FE wins.  As far as detail and style, FE / EVE / Aion win.

Either way, even if you think a couple of the other games have better graphics... I see no validity to the complains about OMG HORRIBLE GRAPHICS!!  FE looks great, and on my 42ihnch LCD, I'm truly in the grand canyon, and the world I'm in is a beautiful, disgusting, real, and gritty world!

If all you look for is graphic's in a MMO then your only real options are going to be Aion/Aoc/War. Graphic dont make a game good, AoC is one good reasion to look at that.

I think the graphics in FE are just fine. It's the sound and animations that need work.

Originally posted by nightbird305

But all in all mate, you have no idea how game engines and databases work it seems. Displaying unique clothing on characters is not the hard part, the thing which takes the longest is loading the actual textures for the clothes, which is something that several engines already have a solution for (refer to unreal 3 playable mesh).

So its not the clothes that take the work to display its the textures on those clothes...

You do realize that you can't really have clothing without textures right?

Sorry I actually read your run on paragraph and I can say without a doubt you have no idea what you are saying yourself.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by nightbird305

But all in all mate, you have no idea how game engines and databases work it seems. Displaying unique clothing on characters is not the hard part, the thing which takes the longest is loading the actual textures for the clothes, which is something that several engines already have a solution for (refer to unreal 3 playable mesh).

 

So its not the clothes that take the work to display its the textures on those clothes...

You do realize that you can't really have clothing without textures right?

Sorry I actually read your run on paragraph and I can say without a doubt you have no idea what you are saying yourself.

Sir, do you know what a mesh is? Meshes are the skeletons for everything graphical, and textures are pictures, pictures which are loaded and put onto meshes.

My point was that meshes take less time to load compared to textures (since they are rendered), and more and more game engines allow the user to play with characters whose textures arn't fully loaded yet (the textures appear like a low res images). This is apparent in games like mass effect where armor textures may be loaded while playing the game (mainly apparent on slower PCs and on the Xbox 360). All in all, this technique of loading the textures on the go allow for a more fluid performance, and is ideal for scenarios where you have a lot of characters (Such as MMO's).

I'm not sure how I could make this any clearer.

So you are saying that the Mesh and Texture are different.  Which I completely agree with and understand, however you are splitting hairs I'm afraid, you said that its not the clothing that is taking so long to render its the texture of the clothing, you can't have one without the other.

My point is when you said "its not the clothing that is difficult to load"  you were wrong, it is in fact the clothing, because the Mesh and the Texture BOTH make up the clothing, so yes, making specific clothing with specific details will be harder to render and therefor take more computing power.

Why argue semantics? 

I mean can you have clothing without mesh?  Can you have clothing without Texture?  No...

Hence he was correct in saying that detailed clothing was what would cause extra computing time / extra work to create.

 Alright I'm not gonna bother going on cause you've all clearly  lost the point of the original discussion. My overall point was that high end graphics, the ones you see in single player games, are achievable in MMOs and are currently being developed as we speak. 

The some examples of this include Stargate online with the unreal 3 engine and Aion with the Farcry 1 engine. 

Originally posted by Laughing-man

So you are saying that the Mesh and Texture are different.  Which I completely agree with and understand, however you are splitting hairs I'm afraid, you said that its not the clothing that is taking so long to render its the texture of the clothing, you can't have one without the other.

My point is when you said "its not the clothing that is difficult to load"  you were wrong, it is in fact the clothing, because the Mesh and the Texture BOTH make up the clothing, so yes, making specific clothing with specific details will be harder to render and therefor take more computing power.

Why argue semantics? 

I mean can you have clothing without mesh?  Can you have clothing without Texture?  No...

Hence he was correct in saying that detailed clothing was what would cause extra computing time / extra work to create.

 

You are still missing my point. The point is not whether or not the overall process of loading clothing takes a long time, it is that the actual task of loading the clothes will not occur at once but rather over a period of time, allowing the computer to take its time to load what it needs, without having to stress the cpu/gpu to the max, which is very fitting for a scenario where the computer has to load of lot of characters. 

As mentioned by another user "What would you rather have? Long load times to cache each texture, or short load times with dynamic caching of the textures as needed? Not to mention, it affects more than just load times, including in-game fps, time to go from one area to another, detail of the environments, etc."

Tbh I think my attempt to explain it at a non technical level is what brought us here, but in the end what I'm saying is not bullshit but rather a technique that's actively being used. I'm also sorry if all my text has been confusing, but it tends to happen when these discussions just go on and on :).

Honestly, it isn't the graphics... eye candy wise...

What the underlying problem is visually is the animation, ui and overal clunky feel to the moving and selecting items, etc.

The game went leaps and bounds from closed beta to open beta/stress... but still...  Expections are what they are from folks.