Originally posted by Ginkeq

Just was curious what other people thought.  I played the open beta and realized that the game was pretty horrible.  I mean the camera system wasn't too useful when it comes to PvP, seems like a clunky interface and the PvP is going to consist of people hitting chains mindlessly.  

Also, Is their whole endgame really going to be PvP?  It really annoys me when these carebear games come out and try to act like they are some kind of hardcore PvP game when they are basically catering to this audience: The people who suck at PvE so much they PvP.  Really, if the game was for PvPers then why isn't there a hardcore server where you can kill anyone at any level in any zone?  Currently it looks like there is a certain level restriction on PvP and also much of the PvP is focused in instances/artificial zones or specific zones.

What happened to games where you could PvP anywhere at any time?  That would be a real PvP game.

you talk about the clunky interface and camera, But in fact almost ALL MMO's have the same exact shit, besides the few 2d ones out there.

There is a balance between playability and achievement. The easier it is to play a game the less is your sense of achievement. So on the one hand the move to more player friendly games was a good step. But on the other it left us with simple, easily finished games that leave you feeling you had your hand held.

It is possible to strike a balance in the favour of achievement without losing every aspect of playability in modern MMO’s. Travel points are a good example. These way station / horse / portal points should not be all accessible from day one. You have long and difficult journeys to find them but once found you can find them. They are not free to use, but nor do the cost an arm and a leg. Certain destinations have no travel points and these are associated with high rewards.

So a rebalance can be made without a return to the mindless grind.

Originally posted by Scot

There is a balance between playability and achievement. The easier it is to play a game the less is your sense of achievement. So on the one hand the move to more player friendly games was a good step. But on the other it left us with simple, easily finished games that leave you feeling you had your hand held.

It is possible to strike a balance in the favour of achievement without losing every aspect of playability in modern MMO’s. Travel points are a good example. These way station / horse / portal points should not be all accessible from day one. You have long and difficult journeys to find them but once found you can find them. They are not free to use, but nor do the cost an arm and a leg. Certain destinations have no travel points and these are associated with high rewards.

So a rebalance can be made without a return to the mindless grind.

That's not quite right.

It's true that satisfaction comes from completing difficult challenges.

But not all difficult challenges are created equal.  Taking forever to locate the quest location is not nearly as satisfying/fun as beating a boss which requires lots of fancy footwork and clever ability use.

One difference is in how fun the failure condition is:  "I spent 15 minutes looking for that stupid quest boss but never found him," is obviously a lot less fun than "Oh man, that boss is tough.  Had this epic fight with him, but in the end I just wasn't strong enough."

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Just was curious what other people thought.  I played the open beta and realized that the game was pretty horrible.  I mean the camera system wasn't too useful when it comes to PvP, seems like a clunky interface and the PvP is going to consist of people hitting chains mindlessly.  

Also, Is their whole endgame really going to be PvP?  It really annoys me when these carebear games come out and try to act like they are some kind of hardcore PvP game when they are basically catering to this audience: The people who suck at PvE so much they PvP.  Really, if the game was for PvPers then why isn't there a hardcore server where you can kill anyone at any level in any zone?  Currently it looks like there is a certain level restriction on PvP and also much of the PvP is focused in instances/artificial zones or specific zones.

What happened to games where you could PvP anywhere at any time?  That would be a real PvP game.

HaHa!! Sorry bud Aion wont fail simply because you dont like it. Sorry to give ya the sad news so early in the day. Aions a great game and will be around for awhile without a doubt.

We'll miss ya!! lol

Originally posted by naraku209

you talk about the clunky interface and camera, But in fact almost ALL MMO's have the same exact shit, besides the few 2d ones out there.

He's right about interface/camera.  Only WOW seems to actually care about having an interface so stable that even the most hardcore players can thrash it, yet the system continues to perform admirably under pressure.

He's wrong about fight time.  PVP can be plenty skill-centric and interesting with 30-second fights (because in any good PVP system, you'll be back 30-120 secs later for a rematch; winning one fight won't win the war.)

He overlooks the importance of class/skill design.  That's the reason that, despite the possibility of interesting 30-second fights, they tend to not actually be interesting.

He's wrong about usability features (minimaps, etc.)  A game without them would be retarded, as your gameplay would revolve around boring/tedious things (like finding the cool stuff to do) instead of doing the cool stuff.  Obviously at a less extreme point you hit a grey area where the game starts to play itself, and that's where you have to make the tough design decisions (ie not removing the minimap, but perhaps giving helpful pointers to the player of what the 'best ability' is to use in his rotation at any given moment - that would remove most of the thinking involved and not be a desireable feature in most games.)

He's ironic about disliking instanced PVP and suggesting he may go find PVP elsewhere - like in RTS games where all matches are instanced duels (or similarly-population-controlled fights.)  Out of all the forums I've browsed, and all the skilled/competitive-oriented gamers I've witnessed over the years, he's the first person to actively dislike instanced PVP.  Which makes me wonder whether he actually fits in the skilled/competitive category at all.

How are we defining failure?

Is it financial failure i.e. chapter 11 for AION?

Is it that AION doesnt have as many subs as WoW?

Is it that the game doesnt live up to an inidivual's personal taste in comparison with another game?

What is failure?

In my opinion failure = financial failure i.e. closing down of a mmo. An example is Tablua Rasa, total failure. AoC and WAR, while not popular at the moment are not failures. If the game lives and makes a profit its not a failure. Aion is good but not great. Its already a finacial success in Asia, and even with 250k subs in a few months it would be considerd a top tier mmo.

Originally posted by drbaltazar

nha once gamer experience end game in aion (ya i know only in about a month or 2 lol)

they ll all be coming to aion

So endgame isn't just another elitist loot treadmill? I can't see todays player's playing an endgame for any other reason.

In the eastrn part of the world it will do fine but here in the west I believe it will fail for the long term. Players will be bored quickly when they see how repetitive the game is and the pve is pretty craptastic.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by naraku209

you talk about the clunky interface and camera, But in fact almost ALL MMO's have the same exact shit, besides the few 2d ones out there.

He's right about interface/camera.  Only WOW seems to actually care about having an interface so stable that even the most hardcore players can thrash it, yet the system continues to perform admirably under pressure.

He's wrong about fight time.  PVP can be plenty skill-centric and interesting with 30-second fights (because in any good PVP system, you'll be back 30-120 secs later for a rematch; winning one fight won't win the war.)

He overlooks the importance of class/skill design.  That's the reason that, despite the possibility of interesting 30-second fights, they tend to not actually be interesting.

He's wrong about usability features (minimaps, etc.)  A game without them would be retarded, as your gameplay would revolve around boring/tedious things (like finding the cool stuff to do) instead of doing the cool stuff.  Obviously at a less extreme point you hit a grey area where the game starts to play itself, and that's where you have to make the tough design decisions (ie not removing the minimap, but perhaps giving helpful pointers to the player of what the 'best ability' is to use in his rotation at any given moment - that would remove most of the thinking involved and not be a desireable feature in most games.)

He's ironic about disliking instanced PVP and suggesting he may go find PVP elsewhere - like in RTS games where all matches are instanced duels (or similarly-population-controlled fights.)  Out of all the forums I've browsed, and all the skilled/competitive-oriented gamers I've witnessed over the years, he's the first person to actively dislike instanced PVP.  Which makes me wonder whether he actually fits in the skilled/competitive category at all.

Wrong about minimaps? How would a game without them be retarded?  The way I see it, is a minimap is basically a cheat.  In older MMORPGs you actually have to have a sense of direction and know where things are.  EQ had a /loc system which would be better than having minimaps.  People just follow arrows on their minimaps anymore, they don't even have to look at the actual game world.

Ironic about disliking instanced PvP?  Only idiots would like instanced PvP.  I came from a server on EQ where you get trains pulled over your raids every day, and then after u die they come in and corpse camp u.  I'd like to see the WoW and AION carebears put up with real PvP like that. 

I guess the "skilled/competitive" category is the one that likes fake and meaningless PvP in instances, where you don't lose anything, and there is no integration between the PvE and PvP system.  Just go to special zones to fight each other because the playerbase is too lousy|pussy to have an all out war where you can fight in any zone.

Instanced PvP = carebear game

Originally posted by Ginkeq

If AION was such a PvP game then they would allow FFA PvP at any level and have penalties for dying in PvP.   And maybe they could make the camera system not suck so horribly.

Aion has pvp penalties, I don't understand how you dare to talk about it like if you knew shit, when you don't even grasp the basics.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Wrong about minimaps? How would a game without them be retarded?  The way I see it, is a minimap is basically a cheat.  In older MMORPGs you actually have to have a sense of direction and know where things are.  EQ had a /loc system which would be better than having minimaps.  People just follow arrows on their minimaps anymore, they don't even have to look at the actual game world.

 

If i want to make my own map and look at a compass all day, i will join the boy scout. MMORPGs are for fun combat, and putting lots of obstacles between the players and the fun part of the game is just failed game designed.

EQ's /loc system is an instant GPS.  In principle it is the same as a minimap that tells u location but just 100x less convenience to use. It is silly to confuse inconvenience with challenge.

If a mini-map is "cheating", i will gladly "cheat" on my games. You know, not only MMORPGs have mini-maps. All SP RPGs have maps too.

Originally posted by Ephimero

Originally posted by Ginkeq

If AION was such a PvP game then they would allow FFA PvP at any level and have penalties for dying in PvP.   And maybe they could make the camera system not suck so horribly.

 

Aion has pvp penalties, I don't understand how you dare to talk about it like if you knew shit, when you don't even grasp the basics.

And technically from you previous post.  Diablo 2 is more hardcore than than any mmorpg today.  Since if you play on the hardcore server, you only have 1 life.  If you die, you die.

I was actually looking for an mmorpg where you have only 1 life, or at least wishing someone would make a hardcore server.  But no one did.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Ephimero

Originally posted by Ginkeq

If AION was such a PvP game then they would allow FFA PvP at any level and have penalties for dying in PvP.   And maybe they could make the camera system not suck so horribly.

 

Aion has pvp penalties, I don't understand how you dare to talk about it like if you knew shit, when you don't even grasp the basics.

 

And technically from you previous post.  Diablo 2 is more hardcore than than any mmorpg today.  Since if you play on the hardcore server, you only have 1 life.  If you die, you die.

I was actually looking for an mmorpg where you have only 1 life, or at least wishing someone would make a hardcore server.  But no one did.

Of course not because very few people will play it. Having 1 life = fail game design.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Wrong about minimaps? How would a game without them be retarded?  The way I see it, is a minimap is basically a cheat.  In older MMORPGs you actually have to have a sense of direction and know where things are.  EQ had a /loc system which would be better than having minimaps.  People just follow arrows on their minimaps anymore, they don't even have to look at the actual game world.

 Ironic about disliking instanced PvP?  Only idiots would like instanced PvP.   

So you're the hardcore type of guy who runs everywhere in real life?  Cars are just a crutch after all.

You probably criticize those lazy engineers making that skyscraper.  After all, with all those cranes, calculators, and computers there's virtually no challenge left to constructing skyscrapers at all.  The things basically build themselves!  Why even show up to work!?

Same deal with minimaps.  It's a tool.  It makes life easier, but doesn't live life for you.

As for irony and instanced PVP?   You made it sound like RTS PVP is competitive and fun for you.  RTS PVP is instanced.  It would be retarded otherwise:

Situation 1.  You begin a 1v1 RTS match against an opponent.  As the game begins, a player with 6 hours of playtime stomps onto the map and wipes you both out without losing a single unit.

Situation 2. You begin a 2v2 RTS match.  The enemy team recruits 6 more players and easily tromps you.

In both situations, any sense of strategy or tactics is gone as soon as teams are unbalanced.

So yes, it's extremely ironic that you say only idiots like instanced PVP because you yourself seem to like it.

I think there is a middle ground, mini maps are not the work of Satan. :)

But you do lose the better sense of geography you had when you had to learn the map yourself. To replace this you could have Orientation quests which initially just show you where things are (this happens in many MMO’s) but end up as treasure hunt style explorations. If finding that Boss does not give you that sense of achievement beating him does, how about finding treasure or the answer to a secret puzzle?

I have to say for me MMO’s seem to have many, many bosses to beat and that lowers the sense of achievement eventually. Just as having no mini map and poor quest instructions starts as an exciting challenge and eventually becomes a chore. So balance and in this case putting some thought into what made knowing the map an achievement would give us a better MMO.
 

Bah. So much talk about modern games beeing easy mode on this forum. Why cant we all gather in the wonderfull world of "wurm;online" ? In that world there is no easy mode, just a damn struggle against a thing like starving... Alot of talk here but I dare to say that few walks the walk.

Best regards

E-thug nr1

Alot of people got overhyped thinking this would the MMO PvP to answer they wishes. But keep in mind folks there is no perfect MMO. I ain't trying to defend Aion but seriously WAR can keep you entertained and you don't have to spend mindless hours on your comp. Login kill people and logout. From the looks of things you can't start killing players in this game from level 1 and gain experience from the kills you dished out. You have to reach level 25 just so you can mindlessly pull off chains that doesn't even require any skills at all. Atleast in WAR you can start ganking around from level 1 up to level 40. After you hit level 40 thats when the real PvP starts. Aion got bot programs and gold spammers ruining the game jus like ala Lineage 2 back in the day. Ncsoft doesn't seem to learn from its mistakes atleast  the Guild Wars Series was cool.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Wrong about minimaps? How would a game without them be retarded?  The way I see it, is a minimap is basically a cheat.  In older MMORPGs you actually have to have a sense of direction and know where things are.  EQ had a /loc system which would be better than having minimaps.  People just follow arrows on their minimaps anymore, they don't even have to look at the actual game world.

 Ironic about disliking instanced PvP?  Only idiots would like instanced PvP.   

So you're the hardcore type of guy who runs everywhere in real life?  Cars are just a crutch after all.

You probably criticize those lazy engineers making that skyscraper.  After all, with all those cranes, calculators, and computers there's virtually no challenge left to constructing skyscrapers at all.  The things basically build themselves!  Why even show up to work!?

Same deal with minimaps.  It's a tool.  It makes life easier, but doesn't live life for you.

As for irony and instanced PVP?   You made it sound like RTS PVP is competitive and fun for you.  RTS PVP is instanced.  It would be retarded otherwise:

Situation 1.  You begin a 1v1 RTS match against an opponent.  As the game begins, a player with 6 hours of playtime stomps onto the map and wipes you both out without losing a single unit.

Situation 2. You begin a 2v2 RTS match.  The enemy team recruits 6 more players and easily tromps you.

In both situations, any sense of strategy or tactics is gone as soon as teams are unbalanced.

So yes, it's extremely ironic that you say only idiots like instanced PVP because you yourself seem to like it.

RTS and instanced PvP are unrelated, don't know how you could compare an MMORPG with an RTS like that in the first place.

Maps don't live life for you?  Sure.. what about in AION where you just look at an arrow on your map and go to it?  Don't even have to look at the screen.  They just give you meaningless quest after quest in AION, all you do is look at arrows instead of the game world.  

MMORPGS with maps in them ruin the experience for people playing the MMORPG, they never learn basic geography of the game.  It's like if you rely on GPS to go everywhere.  Better to let players explore the world for themselves than have a map do it for them.

Where did I say I liked instanced PvP?  If I liked instanced PvP I would play a shit carebear PvP game like AION.  EQ had real PvP, everything else was designed for carebears & newbs.

The game is designed to fail.

I'm sticking by my prediction that the subscription base in the West will be down 50% by the end of month 6. I think that's being conservative. Find a chart that shows the declines of AoC and WAR. The chart for Aion will look very, very similar.

I was thinking I would get a couple months from the game and that would make it worth the purchase. Two weeks in, level 35 and I already loathe the game. I was having fun until a few days ago. If you hit the wall on fun this soon into release, that's a very bad sign.

The game experience for people currently in the 20s has already seriously declined from what the leading edge experience last week. It's just going to get worse as the numbers of high level griefers increase and griefing becomes more organized.

There is very little content that can't be disrupted by griefers and there are almost no measures or efforts in world design to discourage level 40+ players from griefing lower level toons.

Add in the hidden bonus to resists and mitigation you get for every level advantage you have over an opponent and it's clear to see that the entire design of the game favors a leading edge of players coming to dominate and spoil the server for everyone who has trailed behind the curve or started late.

It will chew up and spit out most players and will make it very difficult for new players to join in further down the road. Not a sustainable design concept.

Definately fail.

Linear, Bot, Grinding, Gold spam...

This is not i want at first.