If you haven't noticed, when it comes to most of the companies out there in this market MMOs tend to be the only games they ever seem to make, and to be honest I think this might be a problem and here's why.

Right now the thing MMOs tend to suffer from the most is repetition,  these games seem to be trapped in their own world where hardly any new ideas ever come to fruition. In every MMO the AI is the same retarded AI, the gameplay is the same, the abilities are just the same, the pace, the grind, customization, etc. etc. etc.

If these companies per say had experience making other sorts of games that experience would in one ways or another carry over, I believe in this.

For instance if the developers had had experience in FPS games, chances are they would know how to handle AI and over all fluidity of combat a lot better, plus pacing. If they had developed RTS games they would understand the importance of strategy or timing, and even if their experience were nothing more than single player RPGs they would understand the importance of storytelling and character progression.

Now most of these companies that make MMOs at one point where making other types of games.....but then again they were never any good, and to be honest I think game developers should at first learn to master the art of making a good single player game before they decide to move onto MMOs, because face it MMOs are a lot harder to make and they do tend to be all over the place.

I mean look at Blizzard and their track record when it came to single player RTS games.....which also gives me the premonition that Bioware might also do very well considering theirs.

I don't know...so what do you guys think?

Oh, and my conclusion as of now is that unless developers have had the chance to make successful single player games...etc etc....like I stated before...you know.

I think most developers have a clue,the problem is that there is too many limiting factors.

The foremost limitation is money,you need it to fund the longevity of the project,you need it to hire a staff worthy of a good project,you may need it to purchase a license to a decent game engine that allows you to do what you would like to do with your game.

Most if not all of these games,start out with a committee that has to determine their time line and cost.This of course all leads back to money and even if they have the money are they willing to go over what they perceive as the limitation of their budget?I do not believe o,this is why we have seen many unfinished releases in years.I think more and more lately developers are seeing the market as a quick money grab,they are designing their games extremely cheap and looking for the easiest route to market.

So there is no real passion,there is not that one lead guy willing to put everything aside to make that great game he can be proud of.It is a corporation of many CEO's strict budgets and a group of ideas that may or may not all make it to market.

I can tell you now that after a monumental effort like FFXI,the best and most complete game ever created for a console,future efforts will be more streamline and cheaper,faster to design.I get this feeling big time when i look at everything FFXIV is doing,they are removing a lot of the core FFXI game and trying to pan it off as some new game.IMO that new game will be much smaller than the original FFXI was,because they now see a market and just want to get that game out to the market to make money.They new the FFXI fanbase wanted a better looking FFXI and that is all they were aiming for.IMO they have chosen a project that can deliver the better looks and a way to get it out more cost effective and that is by removing a lot of effort in the design.

SO i guess it all boils down to MONEY,the game is on the bottom of the list when comes to making money.Developers will try to get away with as little as possible,they are not in it to make a bigger more bold game,they want a game that can make money.That is a no brainer of course,but if the developer feels there is any risk at all in the time line of development,those ideas will get scrapped or sold to you at a later time in an expansion,like i said they want to get the game out fast,so will show the least amount of effort in doing so.Another big problem is games are looking to please he crowd,this again points to money,they don't want a better game,they want a game that can reap the most subscriptions.

Originally posted by Wizardry

I think most developers have a clue,the problem is that there is too many limiting factors.

The foremost limitation is money,you need it to fund the longevity of the project,you need it to hire a staff worthy of a good project,you may need it to purchase a license to a decent game engine that allows you to do what you would like to do with your game.

Most if not all of these games,start out with a committee that has to determine their time line and cost.This of course all leads back to money and even if they have the money are they willing to go over what they perceive as the limitation of their budget?I do not believe o,this is why we have seen many unfinished releases in years.I think more and more lately developers are seeing the market as a quick money grab,they are designing their games extremely cheap and looking for the easiest route to market.

So there is no real passion,there is not that one lead guy willing to put everything aside to make that great game he can be proud of.It is a corporation of many CEO's strict budgets and a group of ideas that may or may not all make it to market.

I can tell you now that after a monumental effort like FFXI,the best and most complete game ever created for a console,future efforts will be more streamline and cheaper,faster to design.I get this feeling big time when i look at everything FFXIV is doing,they are removing a lot of the core FFXI game and trying to pan it off as some new game.IMO that new game will be much smaller than the original FFXI was,because they now see a market and just want to get that game out to the market to make money.They new the FFXI fanbase wanted a better looking FFXI and that is all they were aiming for.IMO they have chosen a project that can deliver the better looks and a way to get it out more cost effective and that is by removing a lot of effort in the design.

SO i guess it all boils down to MONEY,the game is on the bottom of the list when comes to making money.Developers will try to get away with as little as possible,they are not in it to make a bigger more bold game,they want a game that can make money.That is a no brainer of course,but if the developer feels there is any risk at all in the time line of development,those ideas will get scrapped or sold to you at a later time in an expansion,like i said they want to get the game out fast,so will show the least amount of effort in doing so.Another big problem is games are looking to please he crowd,this again points to money,they don't want a better game,they want a game that can reap the most subscriptions.

 

Yeah but I'm not asking whether money is a problem.

Frankly, I think some of the higher up dev have little or no game design experience before making an MMO. What games did Jeff Hickman make before he screwed up Warhammer? He worked for a while on DAoC, but I believe before that he was not in the game industry at all.

Warhammer was basically promoted as real time wargame where players were individual soldiers. Well, looking at the campaign design, it is clear that whoever designed it has no idea about real war or wargames.

Companies have 'managers' and suits designing extremely complex games, and thus they screw it up.

Hire an author to write the lore, solo RPG makers to design the quests, and RTS and FPS makers to design the PvP, with some war game designers to design the campaign. Spend your money there, not on a basically irrelevant IP.

This is why I think 38 Studios MIGHT deliver a good game. MacFarlane behind the art, Salvatore behind the story, and Schilling (the major backer) is a wargamer.

 They could still produce crap, but I like the odds better with them than any other upcoming game (aside from Blizzard's).

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Frankly, I think some of the higher up dev have little or no game design experience before making an MMO. What games did Jeff Hickman make before he screwed up Warhammer? He worked for a while on DAoC, but I believe before that he was not in the game industry at all.

Warhammer was basically promoted as real time wargame where players were individual soldiers. Well, looking at the campaign design, it is clear that whoever designed it has no idea about real war or wargames.

Companies have 'managers' and suits designing extremely complex games, and thus they screw it up.

Hire an author to write the lore, solo RPG makers to design the quests, and RTS and FPS makers to design the PvP, with some war game designers to design the campaign. Spend your money there, not on a basically irrelevant IP.

This is why I think 38 Studios MIGHT deliver a good game. MacFarlane behind the art, Salvatore behind the story, and Schilling (the major backer) is a wargamer.

 They could still produce crap, but I like the odds better with them than any other upcoming game (aside from Blizzard's).

Oh you're talking about Copernicus huh...

Originally posted by Jackio81

If you haven't noticed, when it comes to most of the companies out there in this market MMOs tend to be the only games they ever seem to make, and to be honest I think this might be a problem and here's why.

Right now the thing MMOs tend to suffer from the most is repetition,  these games seem to be trapped in their own world where hardly any new ideas ever come to fruition. In every MMO the AI is the same retarded AI, the gameplay is the same, the abilities are just the same, the pace, the grind, customization, etc. etc. etc.

If these companies per say had experience making other sorts of games that experience would in one ways or another carry over, I believe in this.

For instance if the developers had had experience in FPS games, chances are they would know how to handle AI and over all fluidity of combat a lot better, plus pacing. If they had developed RTS games they would understand the importance of strategy or timing, and even if their experience were nothing more than single player RPGs they would understand the importance of storytelling and character progression.

Now most of these companies that make MMOs at one point where making other types of games.....but then again they were never any good, and to be honest I think game developers should at first learn to master the art of making a good single player game before they decide to move onto MMOs, because face it MMOs are a lot harder to make and they do tend to be all over the place.

I mean look at Blizzard and their track record when it came to single player RTS games.....which also gives me the premonition that Bioware might also do very well considering theirs.

I don't know...so what do you guys think?

Oh, and my conclusion as of now is that unless developers have had the chance to make successful single player games...etc etc....like I stated before...you know.

 

 

Would you reverse these statements, and make them about FPS games or RTS games?

If not, then why do they apply to MMORPGs and not these other genres?

Gee, FPS games are all the same. you shoot each other. Why don't the devs add RTS elements or RPG elements?

Should all games be a RPG/FPS/RTS?

Make a good FPS, I'll shoot till my fingers bleed.

Make a good MMORPG, I'll grind and grind and grind some more.

I don't want a RPG/FPS/RTS. Or if I do, I'll STILL want an FPS or an MMORPG.

Originally posted by Jackio81

Right now the thing MMOs tend to suffer from the most is repetition,  these games seem to be trapped in their own world where hardly any new ideas ever come to fruition. In every MMO the AI is the same retarded AI, the gameplay is the same, the abilities are just the same, the pace, the grind, customization, etc. etc. etc.

If these companies per say had experience making other sorts of games that experience would in one ways or another carry over, I believe in this.

The critical breakdown in your reasoning is MMORPGs keep players playing for so much longer than other games.  This means two things:

• MMORPGs last 500+ hours.  Standard games 10-30.  Expecting to be able to compare the two is unreasonable.  Expecting MMORPGs to have anywhere near the content density of a standard game is crazy.
• MMORPGs are obviously doing something right if they've kept such a huge number of players playing 500+ hours.

MMO makers are constantly going to learn how to make their game closer to current singleplayer games in terms of Content Density.  But they're never going to catch up. 

It's simple math:

• on a given budget, a developer can create x Interesting Events.
• in a 500 hour game, your rate of events is   x / 500
• in a 15 hour game, your rate of events is x / 15
• x / 15 is a lot bigger than x / 500...about 33 times bigger.

So what MMORPG makers need to strive for is a variety of interesting activities which are fun enough to be repeated a lot, but which can be layered over one another to create variety within a given session.  Quests are one such way -- you grind a little (because the quest said to slay ogres), but then you stop grinding, return to town (to turn in the quest.)  Maybe you even read a little narrative in that quest.

 Wait wait wait a minute.

You use Blizzard as an example, and then extrapolate that BioWare will do the same.  Please explain to me how WoW isn't like many other MMOs.  Your first big rant contradicts your examples as good things.

Originally posted by demalus

 Wait wait wait a minute.

You use Blizzard as an example, and then extrapolate that BioWare will do the same.  Please explain to me how WoW isn't like many other MMOs.  Your first big rant contradicts your examples as good things.

It's a major colossal success?

Don't think I can say the same about the others now can I?

Face it, all the WoW hating stems from the fact WoW is a game that's been out for 5years now and there hasn't been an MMO to come remotely close to how good it is, 5years of any game and you're bond to get sick of it eventually.

Hell, if you look at a lot of my older post I use to be a WoW hater too, now I just figure it's not WoW, it's just the fact that every other MMO sucks.....=/

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Jackio81

If you haven't noticed, when it comes to most of the companies out there in this market MMOs tend to be the only games they ever seem to make, and to be honest I think this might be a problem and here's why.

Right now the thing MMOs tend to suffer from the most is repetition,  these games seem to be trapped in their own world where hardly any new ideas ever come to fruition. In every MMO the AI is the same retarded AI, the gameplay is the same, the abilities are just the same, the pace, the grind, customization, etc. etc. etc.

If these companies per say had experience making other sorts of games that experience would in one ways or another carry over, I believe in this.

For instance if the developers had had experience in FPS games, chances are they would know how to handle AI and over all fluidity of combat a lot better, plus pacing. If they had developed RTS games they would understand the importance of strategy or timing, and even if their experience were nothing more than single player RPGs they would understand the importance of storytelling and character progression.

Now most of these companies that make MMOs at one point where making other types of games.....but then again they were never any good, and to be honest I think game developers should at first learn to master the art of making a good single player game before they decide to move onto MMOs, because face it MMOs are a lot harder to make and they do tend to be all over the place.

I mean look at Blizzard and their track record when it came to single player RTS games.....which also gives me the premonition that Bioware might also do very well considering theirs.

I don't know...so what do you guys think?

Oh, and my conclusion as of now is that unless developers have had the chance to make successful single player games...etc etc....like I stated before...you know.

 

 

 

Would you reverse these statements, and make them about FPS games or RTS games?

 

If not, then why do they apply to MMORPGs and not these other genres?

Gee, FPS games are all the same. you shoot each other. Why don't the devs add RTS elements or RPG elements?

Should all games be a RPG/FPS/RTS?

Make a good FPS, I'll shoot till my fingers bleed.

Make a good MMORPG, I'll grind and grind and grind some more.

I don't want a RPG/FPS/RTS. Or if I do, I'll STILL want an FPS or an MMORPG.

Well sure if you don't like FPS games than I guess they're all nothing more than generic shooters.

Anyways my point was MMOs are a different breed of games that are a lot harder to make, plain and simple. If these developers can't even make a game to satisfy one player at a time how do they plan to satisfy hundreds of them in one sitting....=/

An MMO is about a vision and that part at the very least comes down to being an art. Some artists have benefited from a very extensive and diverse education, both in their medium and in other areas. Others never had any sort of training in their craft, or even in any others. I could name succesful examples of both types in almost any art form. MMOs, even if under the lead of a srong designer, are basically a group effort which means they are in effect a colective vision. I think this is a stronger factor than a teams background. A specialist might do better than a jack of all trades, or not... And money does get in the way.

Originally posted by Jackio81

Originally posted by demalus

 Wait wait wait a minute.

You use Blizzard as an example, and then extrapolate that BioWare will do the same.  Please explain to me how WoW isn't like many other MMOs.  Your first big rant contradicts your examples as good things.

 

It's a major colossal success?

Don't think I can say the same about the others now can I?

Face it, all the WoW hating stems from the fact WoW is a game that's been out for 5years now and there hasn't been an MMO to come remotely close to how good it is, 5years of any game and you're bond to get sick of it eventually.

Hell, if you look at a lot of my older post I use to be a WoW hater too, now I just figure it's not WoW, it's just the fact that every other MMO sucks.....=/

You misunderstood me.  You said WoW was amazing, yet you railed on things like: dumb ai, grinding mobs, same old same old, etc.  Do you not see your contradiction?

Let me be even more clear.  You said: "In every MMO the AI is the same retarded AI, the gameplay is the same, the abilities are just the same, the pace, the grind, customization, etc. etc. etc.", yet WoW is EXACTLY that.
 

Originally posted by demalus

Originally posted by Jackio81

Originally posted by demalus

 Wait wait wait a minute.

You use Blizzard as an example, and then extrapolate that BioWare will do the same.  Please explain to me how WoW isn't like many other MMOs.  Your first big rant contradicts your examples as good things.

 

It's a major colossal success?

Don't think I can say the same about the others now can I?

Face it, all the WoW hating stems from the fact WoW is a game that's been out for 5years now and there hasn't been an MMO to come remotely close to how good it is, 5years of any game and you're bond to get sick of it eventually.

Hell, if you look at a lot of my older post I use to be a WoW hater too, now I just figure it's not WoW, it's just the fact that every other MMO sucks.....=/

 

You misunderstood me.  You said WoW was amazing, yet you railed on things like: dumb ai, grinding mobs, same old same old, etc.  Do you not see your contradiction?

Let me be even more clear.  You said: "In every MMO the AI is the same retarded AI, the gameplay is the same, the abilities are just the same, the pace, the grind, customization, etc. etc. etc.", yet WoW is EXACTLY that.
 

 

Sometimes you'll even hear WoW fanbois refer to their game as a "polished piece of turd," and that's the thing. Even though everything wrong with MMO's today is also featured in WoW, Blizzard still managed to make it all work for them, which is a reason why no other WoWclone has been able to.

The secret behind Blizzard isn't its originality, they find an idea they like or want and they make it work for them; that simply is their secret. I mean look at the IP Starcraft of theirs which is nothing more than a watered down smaller version of Warhammer40K, but the way Blizzard handled their ripp-off IP you'll still find boards where the two are constantly being argued over which ones better...0o

Anyways, in no ways was I referring that the secret behind making good MMOs is what's Blizzard doing with theirs, they just know how to make their products work and other developers need to find theirs.

Interesting thread OP.

I agree, experience is important and ideas from other game is not a bad idea.

I think another problem is that devs that make fantasy MMOs have no clue about actual melee combat, it seems like their main source for information was watching the movie Highlander twice or so.

Some real knowledge about swordfencing, armors and strategy would also make MMOs more interesting. Most devs have never hold a real balanced sword in their hand. And I belive so particulary about Mythic (and sad it is indeed since Warhammer is a lot about strategy, even the pen and paper RPG game).

It is exactly the same as making a racing game without never even been sitting in a car but watched Smokey and the bandit a time or 2.

Loke666, realism just doesn't matter to most gamers.  Most gamers and most genres don't hinge entirely on realism (though obviously this varies by genre and it varies by gamer.)

You could introduce a great designer to a completely new concept, and he could make a fun game out of it.  Without research he won't make a very accurate or realistic depiction of the subject matter, but he'll make a fun game.  And the majority of gamers play games for fun, so that's what matters.

I don't want to totally underplay the value of research and knowledge of the subject matter, because they do help.  But they're not critical to making a fun game.

Few of the millions of players who enjoyed Diablo 2 worried about nitpicking over whether it had realistic combat.  It was a fun game, and that's what mattered.