Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by Dawnsinger

"Situational balance" is almost as dumb as the phrase "PvP is balanced for groups, not for solo players" whilst certain builds / classes run around soloing groups. >.>

 

Situational balance means that every play style has a roll to fill. This means that when you are in melee range you are dumb if you don't use melee, if you are at magic range you are dumb for not using magic, if you are further out you use archery (depending on aiming skills) While the game is still unblanced due to magic being OP and certain subplay styles being useless (debuff, sword and board, etc) its better than rock vs paper fights and is much easier to balance. To balance things situationally, you do not have to nerf skills presay (magic just neesd to be less spamable) you just have to make all play styles useful. RIght now, thats not the case in dfo.

I can't agree that DFO will be much easier to balance.  I do agree with a post higher up you made that adding in abilities for the other attack styles would help, but in a game such as this, balance will only ever be truly achieved when everyone has maxed out every skill, then they will all be on an even playing field.

The game lacks appeal to me for a few reasons, but this ability to max out every skill by every player means no diversity.  Lack of diversity is not much fun in my eyes.  Diversity and some sort of balance could be achieved through things like a caps and possibly skill decay if no cap.  Yeah, it would add a whole new layer to the balancing act, but here again, adding the aforementioned abilities to the other attack types wold work just fine for this.  But, here again, I am still of the mind that balance will never be achieved in DFO or any other MMO for that matter unless all players are on an even playing field all of the time.  And that goes back to lack of diversity and things just not being much fun.

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Instead of the rock, paper, sissors that is presented to you in a class based system, Darkfall creates situational balance.  Its built on how you play the game, not how high level you are.  A fully equipped week old player can compete against month old vets.  Real balance.

This is complete bs.  Right now " vets " just cycle through the 4 magic AoEs doing 50 - 80 damage each shot ( the magic damage doesn't decrease with radius - Auto Target).  There will never be balance in an uncapped system unless the leveling is trivial ( players can max all their skills in a month ).

The new " specializations " that are about to be introduced will basically be rock-paper-scissors.  " Mage Killer " is just the first part of it.  Next, there will be skills that add damage based on holding a bow and another a melee weapon and they added bunny hopping as a skill.  

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Instead of the rock, paper, sissors that is presented to you in a class based system, Darkfall creates situational balance.  Its built on how you play the game, not how high level you are.  A fully equipped week old player can compete against month old vets.  Real balance.

 

This is complete bs.  Right now " vets " just cycle through the 4 magic AoEs doing 50 - 80 damage each shot ( the magic damage doesn't decrease with radius - Auto Target).  There will never be balance in an uncapped system unless the leveling is trivial ( players can max all their skills in a month ).

 

The new " specializations " that are about to be introduced will basically be rock-paper-scissors.  " Mage Killer " is just the first part of it.  Next, there will be skills that add damage based on holding a bow and another a melee weapon and they added bunny hopping as a skill.  

 

 

You are assuming that AV isn't going to address the fact that people can cycle level 70+ spells. Its been stated on the forums constantly that its needed. No reason why it won't be done when AV says they are trying to bring balance without caps.

There is already diverity in the game. Just becuase everyone uses melee, archery, and magic doesn't mean everyone uses the same spells. I really don't understand why no divesity = no fun for people. Its not like class based games or skill caps magically increase diveisty, that is an illusion in a PvP game because everyone min-maxes their class/build which leads to people playing 1 build per class and generally just a few builds in a hard cap. I don't see the difference if the only diverity in people's play styles is just a hand full of builds.

Originally posted by xpiher

 

 I really don't understand why no divesity = no fun for people. Its not like class based games or skill caps magically increase diveisty, that is an illusion in a PvP game because everyone min-maxes their class/build which leads to people playing 1 build per class and generally just a few builds in a hard cap. I don't see the difference if the only diverity in people's play styles is just a hand full of builds.

I'm not going to touch on everything you stated, but I will touch on this bit here.  Skill caps would in fact increase diversity IF something were added to make builds viable, and this all goes back to special abilities to make sword and board, daggers and what have you a viable option.  Not to say that people won't still find a way to game the system and min/max, because you will have that no matter what, skill cap or no.  That is just the nature of these types of games, but if you made other builds just as workable and competetive as say the guy who cycles through his four AOEs all the time, then it could work.  Besides, no skill cap now, and people are in fact playing the min/max game with AOEs and magic.

As for no diversity being no fun...let's put it this way:  If everyone can learn every skill, then you theoretically have the tools to face everything thrown your way, and can throw everything right back.  To my mind, that lessens the excitement of PVP, and really takes away some of the challenge and fun.  It might put a little more emphasis on player skill, but you pretty much know what to expect.  They throw X, you hit Y, you attack with A, they counter with B.  It basically leads to stagnation...things that stagnate tend to die.

Diversity really gives you some element of surprise.  You see your opponent, and go to attack, but you have to consider, how should I go about this? You don't know what they can or can't do until they pull a weapon or fire off a spell, and it forces you to be a bit more tactical and put more thought into your actions.  It makes you fight smarter, because they might throw X, and you may not have the Y to counter it, so you need to have a good plan of attack.  Do you blitz them and try to take them out in one fell swoop, or do you nickle and dime them to death and try to stay out of reach?

Back in my old EQ days, there used to be a rogue on a PVP server.  He was well known, and I forget his name, but he levelled to 29, and stayed at 29.  All he ever did was PVP, and he generally attacked those of even level or higher level.  He fought battles where he was far outclassed and outgunned, took on classes his little rogue should never be able to beat, and he beat them.  He won.  He was the paper the scissors could never quite cut.  Why was that? Because he knew his class.  He knew his strengths, weaknesses, and he knew how to play.  That's why I hate reading things about "situational balance" and those "rock, paper, scissors" games comments.  In reality, that is the illusion.  Truth is, in any game, any class can beat any other class or what have you if you know how to play.  That is all there is to it.

I like my diversity in games, because I like surprises and challenges.  Taking on opponents that the numbers say I shouldn't be able to beat, and beating those odds.  Like back in the old days of COH, when Ice/Ice Tanks were the bottom of the barrel in tankdom, especially in PVP, I made an Ice/Ice Tank with the express purpose of playing something no one else was playing for the challenge and to surprise people.  I lost my fair share of fights, but I also won many battles against "better" builds, and could out tank just about anyone.

I know I have jumped around in the thought process here, but hopefully you got my meaning. 

"Back in my old EQ days, there used to be a rogue on a PVP server. He was well known, and I forget his name, but he levelled to 29, and stayed at 29. All he ever did was PVP, and he generally attacked those of even level or higher level. He fought battles where he was far outclassed and outgunned, took on classes his little rogue should never be able to beat, and he beat them. He won. He was the paper the scissors could never quite cut. Why was that? Because he knew his class"

I will venture that rogue also took advantage to the well known exploit in EQ where you level up a toon then delevel it so that you keep all your higher level armor, weapons, and skills. You /con as a 29 but in reality are the equivalent to a much higher level character.

That is not balance that is cheating plain and simple. No legit level 29 rogue would have ever beaten another person more then a couple of levels above him assuming they weren't mouth breather basement dwellers.

Originally posted by phrank

"Back in my old EQ days, there used to be a rogue on a PVP server. He was well known, and I forget his name, but he levelled to 29, and stayed at 29. All he ever did was PVP, and he generally attacked those of even level or higher level. He fought battles where he was far outclassed and outgunned, took on classes his little rogue should never be able to beat, and he beat them. He won. He was the paper the scissors could never quite cut. Why was that? Because he knew his class"

I will venture that rogue also took advantage to the well known exploit in EQ where you level up a toon then delevel it so that you keep all your higher level armor, weapons, and skills. You /con as a 29 but in reality are the equivalent to a much higher level character.

That is not balance that is cheating plain and simple. No legit level 29 rogue would have ever beaten another person more then a couple of levels above him assuming they weren't mouth breather basement dwellers.

I know the exploit you are talking about, and no they didn't.  Fought many of those in my EQ days as well.  The guy new how to play his toon plain and simple.  And I never claimed that as an example of balance, but then again, I am of the mind balance can't really ever be achieved in any game without making everyone exactly the same, as I have stated throughout this thread.

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by xpiher

 

 I really don't understand why no divesity = no fun for people. Its not like class based games or skill caps magically increase diveisty, that is an illusion in a PvP game because everyone min-maxes their class/build which leads to people playing 1 build per class and generally just a few builds in a hard cap. I don't see the difference if the only diverity in people's play styles is just a hand full of builds.

 

I'm not going to touch on everything you stated, but I will touch on this bit here.  Skill caps would in fact increase diversity IF something were added to make builds viable, and this all goes back to special abilities to make sword and board, daggers and what have you a viable option.  Not to say that people won't still find a way to game the system and min/max, because you will have that no matter what, skill cap or no.  That is just the nature of these types of games, but if you made other builds just as workable and competetive as say the guy who cycles through his four AOEs all the time, then it could work.  Besides, no skill cap now, and people are in fact playing the min/max game with AOEs and magic.

As for no diversity being no fun...let's put it this way:  If everyone can learn every skill, then you theoretically have the tools to face everything thrown your way, and can throw everything right back.  To my mind, that lessens the excitement of PVP, and really takes away some of the challenge and fun.  It might put a little more emphasis on player skill, but you pretty much know what to expect.  They throw X, you hit Y, you attack with A, they counter with B.  It basically leads to stagnation...things that stagnate tend to die.

Diversity really gives you some element of surprise.  You see your opponent, and go to attack, but you have to consider, how should I go about this? You don't know what they can or can't do until they pull a weapon or fire off a spell, and it forces you to be a bit more tactical and put more thought into your actions.  It makes you fight smarter, because they might throw X, and you may not have the Y to counter it, so you need to have a good plan of attack.  Do you blitz them and try to take them out in one fell swoop, or do you nickle and dime them to death and try to stay out of reach?

Back in my old EQ days, there used to be a rogue on a PVP server.  He was well known, and I forget his name, but he levelled to 29, and stayed at 29.  All he ever did was PVP, and he generally attacked those of even level or higher level.  He fought battles where he was far outclassed and outgunned, took on classes his little rogue should never be able to beat, and he beat them.  He won.  He was the paper the scissors could never quite cut.  Why was that? Because he knew his class.  He knew his strengths, weaknesses, and he knew how to play.  That's why I hate reading things about "situational balance" and those "rock, paper, scissors" games comments.  In reality, that is the illusion.  Truth is, in any game, any class can beat any other class or what have you if you know how to play.  That is all there is to it.

I like my diversity in games, because I like surprises and challenges.  Taking on opponents that the numbers say I shouldn't be able to beat, and beating those odds.  Like back in the old days of COH, when Ice/Ice Tanks were the bottom of the barrel in tankdom, especially in PVP, I made an Ice/Ice Tank with the express purpose of playing something no one else was playing for the challenge and to surprise people.  I lost my fair share of fights, but I also won many battles against "better" builds, and could out tank just about anyone.

I know I have jumped around in the thought process here, but hopefully you got my meaning. 

I guess all I can say is you'll have to try it to know that your may concers about throwing all counters at someone doesn't work.

Originally posted by Majinash

so... you mean like what EVE did? years ago?

The difference is that in EVE, you can never catch up to someone with 20 or 40 million more SP than you, which means whatver you do, a newbie in EVE will never perform as well as a veteran, even if they specialise in just 1 ship type, the veteran will always have higher support/speed/fitting skills.

In Darkfall, you can catch up to the vets in a couple of months of starting the game.

PS: Interesting thread.

Originally posted by xpiher

 

I guess all I can say is you'll have to try it to know that your may concers about throwing all counters at someone doesn't work.

Heh, forgot about this thread.  Got lost in the shuffle=P

Not dredge this back up, but I will say it's not really a concern of mine (since I'm not going to buy the game), just playing devil's advocate in the end.  Only other thought I have to add, is yeah, throwing all your counters may not work depending on the given situation and FPS style combat, but you would still have those counters if needed for many situations.  Much more exciting if you don't, and have to play 24/7 without them and work out your combat style without them.  Diversity is the spice of life=)

Anyhow, off to bed, probably won't be back to this thread.  Got a final and state exam to worry about.

Originally posted by Wyldsong

Originally posted by xpiher

 

I guess all I can say is you'll have to try it to know that your may concers about throwing all counters at someone doesn't work.

 

Heh, forgot about this thread.  Got lost in the shuffle=P

Not dredge this back up, but I will say it's not really a concern of mine (since I'm not going to buy the game), just playing devil's advocate in the end.  Only other thought I have to add, is yeah, throwing all your counters may not work depending on the given situation and FPS style combat, but you would still have those counters if needed for many situations.  Much more exciting if you don't, and have to play 24/7 without them and work out your combat style without them.  Diversity is the spice of life=)

Anyhow, off to bed, probably won't be back to this thread.  Got a final and state exam to worry about.

From the looks of it AV is actually going to add in some counter abilities since "Mage Killer" is a general magic counter. They are also adderessing the issue with cycle spamming like I claimed above. The patch will do a lot of good for the game.