Wow is a clone.

And I play EVE. Never wow. Wow is not that wow, really.

It isn't about wow.  The player base for sandbox is just smaller.

While there is a market for sandbox game, it's just smaller.  At least untill they start making sandbox game aiming for the mainstream.

For example, almost all sandbox game have full loot.  And alot of gamer do like it.  But I'm sure the majority of gamer are carebare and dont' want full loot.

Originally posted by mjelz1973

Originally posted by skydragonren

A game based off, Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse and Mage: The Ascension....

Just read a Vampire Chronicles Noval and Watch Twilight 2000 times if you can stomach it. Will give you the same effect.

 

PS. No way in hell, in a MILLION years, World of Darkness even comes close to toppling wow. To make that statement is mighty bold. Mighty bold indeed. It's like saying Hello Kitty Online will topple it. It isn't even going to be a blip on the radar screen for most.

 

You are confusing watered down and PC versions of a gothic/horror theme into an environment suitable for tween viewers.  The stories you read and movies you see that are mainstream are not even close to the real WOD.  You want to talk about dark and disturbing?  The real WOD makes Twilight...scratch that...even mentioning the two in the same sentence is an insult to 18 years of storyline development by minds approaching the dark creativity of Clive Barker.

You just proved my point in ref to this Original post.

It will never be what you think it is going to be. You can't market a Clive Barker dark themed MMO to the world. You can only offer it to 18+ niche market, making it very small in population, making it even smaller in revenue, making it nowhere even close to toppling wow.

If they do make it like it should be, which I HIGHLY doubt <- can't stress  that enough, it will never see mainstream success.

Not to mention the dark, bloodsucker, werecow, heart eating gore crowd are all in the EMO clubs, not hanging out in MMO's

Like I said you know jack shit about MMO, Gaming, Money or Business.

Just stop typing.

EDIT - On a side note did you ever play Clive Barker's "Jericho"? Enough said.

I will elaborate further. Clive barker's Jericho, though well written and good narrative and theme, had to be watered down. Even carrying the ESRB 18+ this game was booed by critics saying that the game didn't have the scare or fear factor to push it where it needed to be.

WHY?

Clive Barker couldn't DO what he wanted to do because you can't sell that shit to a mass market. If you want to make money, you have to play it down and market it  to a broader audience. So they water it down to child's play as usual.

Same as WoD will be.

So for some reason you think that because you play a game that you actually understand the design of a game?

Here is a lesson for the uneducated, please pay close attention, as this applies directly to you.  Fact Check Incoming...

Playing a game does not mean you know how to design one.  People like you who get into game design are the reason for all of the epic fail in the industry today.  People like you should stick to playing games that people like me design.  People like me get PAID to design.  People like you pay me to design games by buying them.  People like you like to complain because you think people like me care about your $15 a month.  We do not care about your $15 a month, because if you stop playing and cancel your account, in the time it takes you to do so, 10 others have already started new accounts.

Those are the facts, now on to my personal response.

The fact that you used the term "retarded" simply implies that you are in fact the one that has some mental issues, and thus experiences discomfort when attempting to wrap your brain around what I am talking about.  The comeback, you reference, and the inherent implication that I care to win out in the exchange is misplaced.  I know the facts, I know design, and I also know WHY CCP purchased White Wolf a full two years before Twilight even started production, circa 2006.  Tween movies have nothing to do with WOD, and even thinking so tells me that you really don't know CCP as well as you think you do. 

And really...fangs, as if I were even remotely a LARPER...no chance there, pal...sorry.  Try to exert your forum trolling influence upon someone that cares whether you live or die, it might work better.  Oh Noes, you don't agree with me!  Oh Noes, I must be retarded because you called me that because you can't think of anything more intelligent to say.  Sorry, but you fail again.  Does failure run in your family?  It must, considering that I am sure your parents were hoping for an intelligent child.

Originally posted by mjelz1973

So for some reason you think that because you play a game that you actually understand the design of a game?

Here is a lesson for the uneducated, please pay close attention, as this applies directly to you.  Fact Check Incoming...

Playing a game does not mean you know how to design one.  People like you who get into game design are the reason for all of the epic fail in the industry today.  People like you should stick to playing games that people like me design.  People like me get PAID to design.  People like you pay me to design games by buying them.  People like you like to complain because you think people like me care about your $15 a month.  We do not care about your $15 a month, because if you stop playing and cancel your account, in the time it takes yo.................

www.youtube.com/watch

2/10

Originally posted by skydragonren

Originally posted by mjelz1973

Originally posted by skydragonren

A game based off, Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse and Mage: The Ascension....

Just read a Vampire Chronicles Noval and Watch Twilight 2000 times if you can stomach it. Will give you the same effect.

 

PS. No way in hell, in a MILLION years, World of Darkness even comes close to toppling wow. To make that statement is mighty bold. Mighty bold indeed. It's like saying Hello Kitty Online will topple it. It isn't even going to be a blip on the radar screen for most.

 

You are confusing watered down and PC versions of a gothic/horror theme into an environment suitable for tween viewers.  The stories you read and movies you see that are mainstream are not even close to the real WOD.  You want to talk about dark and disturbing?  The real WOD makes Twilight...scratch that...even mentioning the two in the same sentence is an insult to 18 years of storyline development by minds approaching the dark creativity of Clive Barker.

 

You just proved my point in ref to this Original post.

It will never be what you think it is going to be. You can't market a Clive Barker dark themed MMO to the world. You can only offer it to 18+ niche market, making it very small in population, making it even smaller in revenue, making it nowhere even close to toppling wow.

If they do make it like it should be, which I HIGHLY doubt <- can't stress  that enough, it will never see mainstream success.

Not to mention the dark, bloodsucker, werecow, heart eating gore crowd are all in the EMO clubs, not hanging out in MMO's

Like I said you know jack shit about MMO, Gaming, Money or Business.

Just stop typing.

 

EDIT - On a side note did you ever play Clive Barker's "Jericho"? Enough said.

I will elaborate further. Clive barker's Jericho, though well written and good narrative and theme, had to be watered down. Even carrying the ESRB 18+ this game was booed by critics saying that the game didn't have the scare or fear factor to push it where it needed to be.

WHY?

Clive Barker couldn't DO what he wanted to do because you can't sell that shit to a mass market. If you want to make money, you have to play it down and market it  to a broader audience. So they water it down to child's play as usual.

Same as WoD will be.

Quoting you, but at the same time adding a quote of my own from an earlier post...

The day that a developer loses the fear of not having the mass market buy their game is the day that a great game will be born.

I didn't say anything about mass marketing, I am talking about a great game, not the game that makes the most money.

The reference to money on your part only further solidifies the point I am making.  Mainstream is money, I am talking about neither.  EVE is not technically mainstream, but is popular and the company is successful in their own right.  Again, I am talking about making the best game possible, not making the most money, big difference.  Huge difference.

Originally posted by mjelz1973

So for some reason you think that because you play a game that you actually understand the design of a game?

Here is a lesson for the uneducated, please pay close attention, as this applies directly to you.  Fact Check Incoming...

Playing a game does not mean you know how to design one.  People like you who get into game design are the reason for all of the epic fail in the industry today.  People like you should stick to playing games that people like me design.  People like me get PAID to design.  People like you pay me to design games by buying them.  People like you like to complain because you think people like me care about your $15 a month.  We do not care about your $15 a month, because if you stop playing and cancel your account, in the time it takes you to do so, 10 others have already started new accounts.

Those are the facts, now on to my personal response.

The fact that you used the term "retarded" simply implies that you are in fact the one that has some mental issues, and thus experiences discomfort when attempting to wrap your brain around what I am talking about.  The comeback, you reference, and the inherent implication that I care to win out in the exchange is misplaced.  I know the facts, I know design, and I also know WHY CCP purchased White Wolf a full two years before Twilight even started production, circa 2006.  Tween movies have nothing to do with WOD, and even thinking so tells me that you really don't know CCP as well as you think you do. 

And really...fangs, as if I were even remotely a LARPER...no chance there, pal...sorry.  Try to exert your forum trolling influence upon someone that cares whether you live or die, it might work better.  Oh Noes, you don't agree with me!  Oh Noes, I must be retarded because you called me that because you can't think of anything more intelligent to say.  Sorry, but you fail again.  Does failure run in your family?  It must, considering that I am sure your parents were hoping for an intelligent child.

That was an extremely pompous/lengthy way to wave ones epeen and tell someone they suck.

But I must confess, the highlights piqued my curiosity and I'm interested in whether or not the arrogance displayed in your post has a solid foundation, so I have a question.

Which MMO did you design?

The sandbox argument is WRONG. We should not play a crappy sandbox game just to get away from the WoW clones. If a company was serious they could make a successful sandbox game. The fact is subpar "wow clones" work. subpar "non wow clones" dont. I great sanbox game would do really well imo.. but one has yet to be created as far as i'm concerned. Especially not the type that the majority of us would like. 

Companies are to blame. It's not us, it's the companies that are not creating a quality game to take players away from WoW. If companies choose to make a "wow clone" well by now they should no that no clone has surpassed wow and shouldn't even bother. If they're stupid enough to do so, then that's their problem.

That said, there are a lot of MMOs in the work that are really doing things differently as far as far gameplay. TOR, GW2, and FFXIV to name a few... so I think next year we really start to see a shake up in the MMO world.

Originally posted by drbaltazar

 everything made after everquest 1 is a wow clone

People will always make references to what's most popular not what came first....always.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by mjelz1973

So for some reason you think that because you play a game that you actually understand the design of a game?

Here is a lesson for the uneducated, please pay close attention, as this applies directly to you.  Fact Check Incoming...

Playing a game does not mean you know how to design one.  People like you who get into game design are the reason for all of the epic fail in the industry today.  People like you should stick to playing games that people like me design.  People like me get PAID to design.  People like you pay me to design games by buying them.  People like you like to complain because you think people like me care about your $15 a month.  We do not care about your $15 a month, because if you stop playing and cancel your account, in the time it takes you to do so, 10 others have already started new accounts.

Those are the facts, now on to my personal response.

The fact that you used the term "retarded" simply implies that you are in fact the one that has some mental issues, and thus experiences discomfort when attempting to wrap your brain around what I am talking about.  The comeback, you reference, and the inherent implication that I care to win out in the exchange is misplaced.  I know the facts, I know design, and I also know WHY CCP purchased White Wolf a full two years before Twilight even started production, circa 2006.  Tween movies have nothing to do with WOD, and even thinking so tells me that you really don't know CCP as well as you think you do. 

And really...fangs, as if I were even remotely a LARPER...no chance there, pal...sorry.  Try to exert your forum trolling influence upon someone that cares whether you live or die, it might work better.  Oh Noes, you don't agree with me!  Oh Noes, I must be retarded because you called me that because you can't think of anything more intelligent to say.  Sorry, but you fail again.  Does failure run in your family?  It must, considering that I am sure your parents were hoping for an intelligent child.

That was an extremely pompous/lengthy way to wave ones epeen and tell someone they suck.

But I must confess, the highlights piqued my curiosity and I'm interested in whether or not the arrogance displayed in your post has a solid foundation, so I have a question.

Which MMO did you design?

Did I claim in any post to have designed an MMO?  No, I did not post that because I have not been published on an MMO title, but I have had game software published.  In addition to my degree, I have logged over 2000 hours of subject matter related continuing education, been in every significant MMO related presentation at each AGC since 2005, and have personally met and discussed game design concepts and methods with more than a few influential people in the industry.  I don't claim to be on the design team of a major MMO, but I do know the industry and the methods and concepts behind the current design paradigm.  I also know the difference between a good game and a game that will make the most money, the former is of interest to me moreso than the later.
 

---

Originally posted by mjelz1973

---

Originally posted by Ravanos

if you enjoy WoW then this post isn't for against, its these other game jumpers who say "omg WoW sucks .....", yet bitch when a new game doesn't have "X Y or Z like WoW'.
this post is for those with WOW accounts yet come to this forum and bitch because theres nothing different on the market.
people that say blame the game developers are idiots. Most game developers are just in it for the money (duh) and investors are definately in it for the money. so if you were going to put millions into a new project and your choices were ...
a Game with WoW like qualitys (linear, theme park) or an open world like Ryzom, which would you throw your millions at?
and if you say the game like Ryzom ... you're lying.

---

 
I stand corrected...NOW everyone reading this thread is dumber for having read it.
Investors give money to proven design models, yes.  The blame is on developers because they only develop for money...because they only develop with mass market in mind.  The same mass market that will pay $50 for the game and $15 for the first month and then cancel the account because "it takes too much time to level" and "I have a life"...its the posers who buy our games that are the direct cause for all the shitty games out on the market and for crappy developers who are content with putting out shit that fits the general mold of designs today just to make a buck.
The day that a developer loses the fear of not having the mass market buy their game is the day that a great game will be born.
Forgot to add this to my original post, but for references to what I mean, please see DOOM, GTA, and any other game that got bad press in the beginning for taking it to the extreme.  AD&D got bad press in the beginning, and even still today, because it was outside the box...funny thing is that it paved the way for every MMO out today...not too bad for devil worshipping eh?
Those are all the best games, period.
THAT IS ALL.

---

Very few developers will ever make anything that is not for the mass market. Doom and GTA both appealed to a large market, but were bashed in the media for being too much. The devs knew who would like it. D&D is a special thing that started in a strange way and even then did not have development costs that a video game does.

Do you really think the money is going to change?! The only people making games like this are the indie devs, as this article says. And they are doing it out of love for gaming. They will probably always be the ones with the best ideas, but they simply do not have enough money to polish it the way the mass market wants. And the mass market will not try a new style of game because it is too hard. Look at Fallen Earth, already people are complaining because they cannot figure out the opening sequence. Part of me says "good riddance to the idiots," but part of me knows that those are the unwashed masses that fund games. And that is why WoW is so popular. People are not clever on the whole, and they love simple, bright things that make them feel successful, and the constant loot changes do that for someone that does not really understand games. The people on this site are the exception and not the rule.

Indie developers really are developers that care enough to make a game they love. Most game companies are developers employed by the people with money that neither understand nor care at all about games, and instead care about money. They demand game models that are proven to make large sums of money. This is why the moneyed games almost always come out the same. Therefore it is the fault of the players that buy games they know are no good, and the people that are too stupid to know better, but we have little chance of changing them, right?

The money will never change. They just want MORE MONEY? Get it? So they do what has been proven to make the most money. I am not totally sure what your point was, because it sounds in some places like you agree that it is the fault of players, but you seemed to have indicated that Ravanos is incorrect, which obviously he/she is. Yes, this thread has been done to death, but that does not mean we should not continue to try and raise awareness of the face that buying shit games will only serve to provide you with more shit games.

lol ppl continue to say WoW is a clone but the fact is WoW killed Everquest... more people play WoW... Dont like WoW thats fine but its a damn good game and people like you are the reason that there are sooo many clones you act like WoW just ripped everything no WoW has its own lore its own graphics its own fun soo please stop being a little.... and get over it... WoW is a good game... and please WHAT IS THIS REVOLUATION IN MMO's EXPLAIN? WHAT IS IT? DO YOU KNOW? so why are you demanding this game that you dont know what it is? realy... WoW is a good game ppl clone it because it works... it has more subs then any game in the world... get over it already just because YOU dont like it doesent mean the world hates it...

I fined it hard to blame the grass for the cow @#$%%ing ( for leaving droppings).

 I've tried EVE.  It sucked.  It was like a text based MUD other then watching your stupid ship flying around in space and mining asteroids it was absolutely boring.  My first quest required me to do some Fed Ex quest where I plotted the course and flew there to some station then back.  So I do that, and ok I'm watching my ship fly... hmmm dmmm waste some time, watch space go by... wait som more.    Ok 45 minutes later I'm back where I started.  My other option fly out to some asteroids and mine them and try to fight some pirates.  Decided to try exploring, went out of the safe zone and upon zoning got killed/podded.  I didn't really care having a starter ship and flew around in my pod til I got bored.  

All told probably paid maybe an hour before uninstalling the game lolz.

The reason people play WOW is that most other MMO's that come out are garbage.  They're released well before they should be.  Untested, buggy, farcical with crappy animations (LOTRO)  with some aspects of the game added as an afterthought (again LOTRO pvp/mvp).

When a game comes out that is well thought, tested, and interesting or Blizzard pisses everyone off WOW will continue to reign supreme.

Originally posted by skarwolf

 I've tried EVE.  It sucked.  It was like a text based MUD other then watching your stupid ship flying around in space and mining asteroids it was absolutely boring.  My first quest required me to do some Fed Ex quest where I plotted the course and flew there to some station then back.  So I do that, and ok I'm watching my ship fly... hmmm dmmm waste some time, watch space go by... wait som more.    Ok 45 minutes later I'm back where I started.  My other option fly out to some asteroids and mine them and try to fight some pirates.  Decided to try exploring, went out of the safe zone and upon zoning got killed/podded.  I didn't really care having a starter ship and flew around in my pod til I got bored.  

All told probably paid maybe an hour before uninstalling the game lolz.

 

Hey don't make fun of Eve or the elite will come and call you a newb=)  Didn't you know that flying around for 45 minutes is called depth and thought provoking gameplay in Eve land?  hehe.   I wish I was joking;)

wow is a clone in itself for real. My stance on the whole thing is wow=generic mmorpg that was released at the right time with the right marketing. Every game I have played has the run off of people who are just now realizing the sad truth of this.

Dammit, it's always my fault. First it was the economy, now this.

Originally posted by Ravanos

If you don't like WoW yet you still pay for an account.

you want to know why we are not getting sandbox games, if you pay for a WoW account ... its YOUR fault. why would game companies take a chance on a high risk sandbox game. when they see how many subscribers are out there willing to play WoW. So yes I do blame the gamer, blizzard is there to make money nothing more nothing less. they aren't going to put out games that push the evolution of MMOs. its obvious gamers dont want that so they will churn out the same tried and true MMO and the zerg will flock to it.

if you want more sandbox games, you have to show game developers you want that .... subscribe to EVE, Fallen Earth, Ryzom or hell any other sandbox game out there. the more subs those games have the more game companies will see there is want for that type of game.

So... by your logic, if I stop paying for WoW, a new age sandbox MMO will magically pop out of the ground?

Thats not how the world works buddy, Sorry.

Developers might think that "Hey, if we build something similar like WoW but give it new graphics and call an old system like RvR 'New & Innovative' we might be just as succesful"

A smart Developer will think "What makes WoW succesful, it sure as hell isnt the graphics... then it must be the ease of use hard to master concept, and the variety of interface options which provide for a relaxed and enjoyable play experience, Now how can we incorporate that into something new?!"

I have how ever stopped my subscription in the last month, and it will run out in december, and I am trying out EVE in the meantime. I am looking for something new myself, and EVE is the only thing which is currently grabbing my attention (which is older than WoW btw...).

Stopping your subscription isnt going to create new MMO's, Feedback and communication with the games industry will.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by mjelz1973

So for some reason you think that because you play a game that you actually understand the design of a game?

Here is a lesson for the uneducated, please pay close attention, as this applies directly to you.  Fact Check Incoming...

Playing a game does not mean you know how to design one.  People like you who get into game design are the reason for all of the epic fail in the industry today.  People like you should stick to playing games that people like me design.  People like me get PAID to design.  People like you pay me to design games by buying them.  People like you like to complain because you think people like me care about your $15 a month.  We do not care about your $15 a month, because if you stop playing and cancel your account, in the time it takes you to do so, 10 others have already started new accounts.

Those are the facts, now on to my personal response.

The fact that you used the term "retarded" simply implies that you are in fact the one that has some mental issues, and thus experiences discomfort when attempting to wrap your brain around what I am talking about.  The comeback, you reference, and the inherent implication that I care to win out in the exchange is misplaced.  I know the facts, I know design, and I also know WHY CCP purchased White Wolf a full two years before Twilight even started production, circa 2006.  Tween movies have nothing to do with WOD, and even thinking so tells me that you really don't know CCP as well as you think you do. 

And really...fangs, as if I were even remotely a LARPER...no chance there, pal...sorry.  Try to exert your forum trolling influence upon someone that cares whether you live or die, it might work better.  Oh Noes, you don't agree with me!  Oh Noes, I must be retarded because you called me that because you can't think of anything more intelligent to say.  Sorry, but you fail again.  Does failure run in your family?  It must, considering that I am sure your parents were hoping for an intelligent child.

That was an extremely pompous/lengthy way to wave ones epeen and tell someone they suck.

But I must confess, the highlights piqued my curiosity and I'm interested in whether or not the arrogance displayed in your post has a solid foundation, so I have a question.

Which MMO did you design?

Not only that but he didn't answer your question either, though he chose to reply to others.

It was an extremely pompous attempt to stroke an epeen, however fails, because I do not believe one word  this kid is even saying.

I take this poster as some child, probably in middle school, maybe higher (doubtful) trying to impose and push how much THEY KNOW AND DOOOOOO, swollen chest syndrome, when they do not KNOW OR DO ANYTHING.

"I know design, I know games, I know this and that"

You know dick. Shut your mouth and peddle your wares elsewhere. Noone cares about you or this dumbass WoD.

I do not see you explaining anything that you know, just that you know it.

I could say "I know rocket design, I build rockets, I make rockets for a living".... Yeah ok. You would believe me about as much as I believe you.

Anyway, kids will be kids I guess.