Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by cichy1012

Originally posted by Gameloading

The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.

quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.

 

Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place.  They want your stuff.  The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.

and what do you base that on?

Without a meaningful real danger in game, there is no reason to play it.   There can be no real joy without disappointment.

Originally posted by 4Renziks

People need to realize mmo is an addiction.  The reason you guys are not finding any fun in any of the new game is because the high is never as high as your 1st MMO....most people are now trying to reach that high that they got from their 1st MMO but its something that will never be reached...most of these games are not bad games...its just not what you want them to be.   MMORPG's are the hardest games to develop because they are so massive that there can be on thing that turns people away.  I use to be like the people that bash all new games, but when i realized that iam never going to feel the way i did about FFIX in any other game.....even 14! This has help me to enjoy MMO's more than i use to instead of being so emo. 

Sorry, but that is a huge cop-out. That's like saying the same thing for single player games, but there have been alot of single player games that I play now that are way way better than Super Mario Brothers. My first MMO was Everquest, and while I do miss some aspects of that game, I have to admit that WoW was a way better game. At least at first.

Honestly, MMOs have not changed that much over the years. The players have. And therefore the companies that make the content have changed to suit the new attitudes players have adopted. MMOs used to be about community and exploration more than anything ( in my opinion), but nowadays its all about loot. Where once players status was defined by their reputation as a person and their ability as a player, now status is determined by gear and stats.

And the companies want to make money, so of course they are going to cater to the new generation who is the majority (it seems). Therefore you will get alot of the same content until players' attitudes toward the content change. Who knows if that will ever happen. To me it only seems to be getting worse and worse. The only saving grace is that multiplayer shooters and single player games in general have been getting better and better.

Originally posted by rutaq

First lets review the definition of challenge as it applies to playing an MMO...

Challenge :  (noun) 

                      1.   difficulty in a job or undertaking that is stimulating to one engaged in it.

                       2.  a call or summons to engage in any contest, as of skill, strength, etc.

                      

You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.

 

Admittedly EQ did have more punishments than modern MMOs but they did add to the risk and thus added to the challenge of playing the game.   Also the time it takes to progress and level was longer which also meant you were required to manage the risks of the environment longer which equates to a greater challenge.

No it doesn't because as I said it just increases the timesink. Great risk does not equal a greater challenge. It's like the old NES games that offered no continues. Instead of letting you continue and re-try the level you failed, the game puts you back at the very beginning of the game, forcing you to go back through all those levels you already beat. The system you're describing is the same thing: You simply have to do things again that you had already done before. That's not an increase in challenge, that's an increase in repetition.

 

Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.

 

The ability to travel safely in WOW is less challenging than in EQ where the MOBs wandered everywhere.  You had to constantly be aware of your surroundings and carefully plot your course and avoid dangerous MOBs that you couldn't simply sprint away from to escape.   Also you need to understand that death meant you would lose experience points and possibily lose levels so building a high level character was more difficult due to the setbacks, aka..  difficulties, aka.. challenges.

You can't travel safely in WoW. the only areas you can visit are the roads and there is no content there. Ofcourse you need to take a good look around you every once in a while but that's the case with every mmorpg that has an agro system.  Losing a level means you first have to go back to old content to get back that level again. That's not challenging, because you're doing content that you already did before. That's just time consuming.

 

What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time?

A game that is scaled for a player to fight a single equal level MOB becomes more of a challenge due to the risk of agroing additional enemies which will likely cause you to die.  A game scaled around fighting multiple equal leveled MOBs at once reduces the risk that additonal MOBS bring and thus reduces the need to manage agro and be aware of your environment.

No it doesn't because games that are built with fighting multiple mobs at the same time also have an increase in the amount of mobs around you at any time. Just because the game is built around fighting multiple mobs at the same time doesn't mean you can't agro too many.

 

So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW?

I haven't played City of Heroes but if it uses a similar system to WoW then yes, if COH is scaled for a single players to fight even more equal level MOBs  then it reduces the risk and challenge of combat even further.

I noticed you haven't.I adressed this above.

MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
 

You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.

 

The challenge in EQ wasn't simply pressing the right button,  it was being aware of your environment, making good choices and managing risky situations.   Failure to do any of the above well resulted in death, item loss and xp loss.

 in WoW you can practically ignore your surroundings due to the scale of the game with players being able to easily kill multiple foes or simply out run them.  Choices still need to be made in WoW but poor choices have not impact,  the game has a built in "Do Over" system to prevent any negative impact.  The level of Risk in WoW is so low that it is mostly ignorned,  combat is scaled so players win almost be default, auto attacking down MOBs while you make a sandwhich isn't a challenge.   And finally the lack of any conseqence of death, the ultimate  "do over" systems that WoW built removes any tangible risk from the game which neutures what little challenge WoW has.

Combat is scaled? Only to a very, very small way of hit/miss/crit rate on mobs way beyond your level that you wouldn't be able to kill anyway.

The challenge in EQ was pressing the right button as in every mmorpg. Being aware of your environment, you make it sound as if this is a challenging thing to do. Mobs walk around slowly and aimlessly often in an open field. They won't hide from you. Making good choices? And how do you do that? Ah yes,by simply pressing the right button at the right time. Heal when you're damaged badly, taunt when you need agro, a skill to do more damage. It's not exactly rocket science we're talking about here.

It's not like poor choices have no impact. If you pick the wrong talents, your character will suffer in terms of strength. If you die all you have to do is go back to your spawn point so the game doesn't make you feel like you have wasted your time. It seems that this challenge you speak of is nothing more than simply have your time wasted.

 

 The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.

The reason you die less in modern MMOs is because the developers have made it easier to win, thus less challenging.

 I don't know why I said die less, I probably had that word in my head for some reason and it doesn't make sense with anything else i said, sorry for the confusion. What I meant is the reason why you grow faster in modern games is because these annoyances have been reduced.

The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyable.  

The death and setback isn't enjoyable, that is the point.  The penalties give risk to combat which makes it more of a challenge since you stand to lose something substantial.  It is the challenge that old  EQ players are looking for, a challenge that measures the success of the players and doesn't prop everyone up as being an automatic success because they simply logged in and road all the rides in themepark.

Next time you play Poker with your friends, bet using real money say $ 100.00.  The game becomes completely different when you stand to lose something significant.    

It doesn't make the combat more challenging, just more punishing. What you're asking for is a game to say "you got killed by that boss? Well go back to those mobs you were killing earlier and grind on those for 2 more hours before you can try again". The actual boss encounter doesn't become any more challenging, the game doesn't ask any more of your skills as a player if you lose experience and levels or not. It just asks more of your time.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by cichy1012

Originally posted by Gameloading

The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.

quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.

 

Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place.  They want your stuff.  The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.

 Sadly, I was more often on the recieving side of ganks but I certainly miss the danger and risk that EQ had.

Heck I have recently started playing Runes of Magic a F2P game that looks likes WOW's little brother just because it has things like PvP penalties aka criminal system,  Item loss in PvP,  XP debt penalty for Deaths and  Items that are destroyed at 0 durability.

    Sure it has easy mode quests, is very solo friendly, looks cartoony like WoW and Monty Hall with magic items...  BUT... It has an element of Risk that NONE of the mainstream MMOs have.

The MMO genre has not evolved at all. The differences between the earlies MMO's and todays MMO's is simply polish. There's nothing revolutionizing about the progression and it's a bit sad.

Only a few MMO's even tried to venture outside the box, but most of them employ similiar philosophies, even if what the eye see is totally different.

Here's hoping that, eventually, someone will release an actual good game, that just happens to also be an MMOG. 

 I think the main argument against 'challenging' mmo's is that the old way was just a time-sink.  I think people are forgetting something pretty pertinent.  MMOs are a time-sink.  You are playing to waste time or entertain yourself as time passes.  So are you saying you are wasting your game time?  Time you'd rather be using to race to the endgame, right?  

I think maybe what people are saying is they used to enjoy the trip up, and you learned your character and other people through it, and in addition they found it more immersive having to look around a dark zone worried about a train of skeletons whacking you.   What the 'time sink' people are describing is a desire to rip through the game so they can get to the "elite" endgame, something not so elite when newb zones are empty and most of the server is max level (because it takes a month).  

Players are just saying they prefered spending their time in suspense, since if they screwed up, yes, it would be an inconvinience or 'time sink.'  This kept their attention in the game.  In WoW, you try to stay awake as you watch the download bar at the bottom fill up.  Watch a movie while you grind!  Its like a chore you are getting out of the way.   In EQ players used to have to actually play the game to play the game.  I think that is what players/posters are thinking on.

Originally posted by jmccarthy14

 I think the main argument against 'challenging' mmo's is that the old way was just a time-sink.  I think people are forgetting something pretty pertinent.  MMOs are a time-sink.  You are playing to waste time or entertain yourself as time passes.  So are you saying you are wasting your game time?  Time you'd rather be using to race to the endgame, right?  

 

I think maybe what people are saying is they used to enjoy the trip up, and you learned your character and other people through it, and in addition they found it more immersive having to look around a dark zone worried about a train of skeletons whacking you.   What the 'time sink' people are describing is a desire to rip through the game so they can get to the "elite" endgame, something not so elite when newb zones are empty and most of the server is max level (because it takes a month).  

 

Players are just saying they prefered spending their time in suspense, since if they screwed up, yes, it would be an inconvinience or 'time sink.'  This kept their attention in the game.  In WoW, you try to stay awake as you watch the download bar at the bottom fill up.  Watch a movie while you grind!  Its like a chore you are getting out of the way.   In EQ players used to have to actually play the game to play the game.  I think that is what players/posters are thinking on.

 Great Observation.

 I am guilty of getting swept up with all the cool addons to help simplify my game play so I can watch reruns of Family Guy while grinding out some simple quests.   Multitasking FTL :(

I've recently returned back to EQ and I can say with 100% certainty that it is no less stupid than WoW. They are both equally crappy games. Even SWG, my first "kiss", turned out to be really, really horrible when I went to try out SWGemu.

I've come to realise that the whole MMORPG genre has always been a very bad game genre. They are very boring to play and the mechanics are hardly ever anything other than lame. Mediocre at best.

How did I realise this revelation? All my friends have quit playing them, but I still clinged to them. I realised that the fun I had was because I played them with friends; both people I met online and irl. Every single good memory I have of MMORPGs is of me and my bizarre antics with my friends.

And this takes us back to the problem with modern MMORPGs. The most recent new MMORPG I've played is Champions Online, and like most modern MMOs, it's so solo friendly that it actually hurts your XP to group with anyone. There's no need to play with others, thus no one does. I tried several times to spark up some conversation in the general chat, but rarely did anything come out of it.

In conclusion: maybe MMORPGs actually haven't gotten better or worse. I think that they are pretty much the same now as they were in the past. The only thing that I can see that has changed drastically is the mentality of the players. Without the players MMORPGs are just bad games with mechanics that feel so old and outdated that they make old atari games seem fresh and innovative. Which is what they pretty much are when you get down to it. Whether it's EQ or WoW, old or new, it doesn't really matter. Both suck and so does the genre.

Originally posted by NeonShadow

I've recently returned back to EQ and I can say with 100% certainty that it is no less stupid than WoW. They are both equally crappy games. Even SWG, my first "kiss", turned out to be really, really horrible when I went to try out SWGemu.

I've come to realise that the whole MMORPG genre has always been a very bad game genre. They are very boring to play and the mechanics are hardly ever anything other than lame. Mediocre at best.

How did I realise this revelation? All my friends have quit playing them, but I still clinged to them. I realised that the fun I had was because I played them with friends; both people I met online and irl. Every single good memory I have of MMORPGs is of me and my bizarre antics with my friends.

And this takes us back to the problem with modern MMORPGs. The most recent new MMORPG I've played is Champions Online, and like most modern MMOs, it's so solo friendly that it actually hurts your XP to group with anyone. There's no need to play with others, thus no one does. I tried several times to spark up some conversation in the general chat, but rarely did anything come out of it.

 

In conclusion: maybe MMORPGs actually haven't gotten better or worse. I think that they are pretty much the same now as they were in the past. The only thing that I can see that has changed drastically is the mentality of the players. Without the players MMORPGs are just bad games with mechanics that feel so old and outdated that they make old atari games seem fresh and innovative. Which is what they pretty much are when you get down to it. Whether it's EQ or WoW, old or new, it doesn't really matter. Both suck and so does the genre.

Hey I found a great deal on a '66 Ferrari that was sitting at a dealership.  I was really excited since everyone said this particular model was great.   It broke down on the ride home, and it wasn't even that fast.  Ferrari sucks.

Seriously though, see what you mean about solo stuff, can make it boring.

AC1 Best game ever lol. I would not mind seeing 1-20 clones of this game....

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by nanoviper

It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases.

       Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. 

       What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential.

     Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?

 

Yes, you and a minority of the players. I started with UO & EQ and they *are* pale in comparison to the newer modern MMOs in terms of features and fun factor.

Is that why UO has Player-Housing, Taming, Player-Driven Economy, Skill-based system and plenty of more features which are vastly superior to modern day mmo's?

Originally posted by Yohanu

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by nanoviper

It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases.

       Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. 

       What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential.

     Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?

 

Yes, you and a minority of the players. I started with UO & EQ and they *are* pale in comparison to the newer modern MMOs in terms of features and fun factor.

Is that why UO has Player-Housing, Taming, Player-Driven Economy, Skill-based system and plenty of more features which are vastly superior to modern day mmo's?

SWG had those as well. Big whoop.

Originally posted by NeonShadow

Originally posted by Yohanu

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by nanoviper

It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases.

       Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. 

       What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential.

     Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?

 

Yes, you and a minority of the players. I started with UO & EQ and they *are* pale in comparison to the newer modern MMOs in terms of features and fun factor.

Is that why UO has Player-Housing, Taming, Player-Driven Economy, Skill-based system and plenty of more features which are vastly superior to modern day mmo's?

 

SWG had those as well. Big whoop.

I was making a comparison to modern-day mmo's, SWG isn't one of those (i liked SWG alot back in the days).

I'm trying to make the point modern mmo's are all about grinding combat to max-level instead of having various paths you can choose. I like living worlds, not static dumbed down combat-grindfest worlds.

Oh the good old days of SWG.... A game with EVERYTHING in it for EVERYONE.   From every type of Combat to all kind of crafters with a real player based economy.  The ressources system was awesome.  Better resources with better crafters were making better things.   Too bad they spoiled that game..  Wish game companies would look at what SWG was before and make something similar.  The game had everything to keep you in it..  Just hope one day some dev will remember how complete that game was ..

Ultima and EQ enjoyed something that new MMORPGs don't....and thats lack of competition. 

If you didn't like how something worked in Ultima, you dealt with it because there was nothing else.  You put up with the bad to experience the good.  That wasn't neccessarily a bad thing....you can't knee jerk react to something if there is no where else to go.

Today there are hundreds of options for MMO gaming so new successful MMORPGs are developed to apeal to the masses.  Try to make EVERYONE as happy as possible ALL of the time.  Blizzard can't get away with what Ultima got away with in 97' or 98' because the new fickle MMO crowd would jump ship without a second thought.

Which brings us to today.  Niche games (ala pre-pub 16 Ultima Online) that are deep, challenging, and quite frankly...aimed at a more mature audience....are not sustainable because of the precident that games like World of Warcaft, Aion, WAR, (insert linear theme park MMO Here), have made it impossible to pull enough player base to be profitable.  And as a result, all the big publishers that have the bank to put together a quality game avoid it like the plauge.

You mention full loot system to anyone in WOW and you'd get slapped and called a blaspheme.  You mention common item system or only having 3 stats and 2 main class types and watch as their face curls in disgust.  WHEN in actuallity....all those things worked well and are one of the main reasons that made Ultima work so well.

What it all boils down to is that while there is a market for MMO gamers that are looking for some kind of challenge in a game that isn't defined by a gear check.....there just isn't enough of us for a Blizzard, Squarsoft, EA to take a chance on with the amount of competition in the market today.

Originally posted by cichy1012

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by cichy1012

Originally posted by Gameloading

The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.

quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.

 

Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place.  They want your stuff.  The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.

 

and what do you base that on?

Are you saying you think people seriously enjoy getting robbed by characters specifically constructed to do just that?

Everquest was my first and I personelly liked the death penalty where you loose exp. Usaully a couple hours of grinding was taken away. That punishment added tons of excitement becuase if you screwed up running into a situation you are not able to handle or being careless you paid the price. Most of the time you were able to figure a way to get somewhere without being discovered so not to die loosing the exp. Todays games graphic wise are always improving but I agree with the OP, they are dumbed down games taking away the thrill that is needed to make our palms and armpits sweat from the excitement of serviving a run to the zone line of Mistmoore being chased by 20 vampires while yelling " Train to Zone, Train to Zone"

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by cichy1012

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by cichy1012

Originally posted by Gameloading

The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.

quoted in yellow.--------- Why do people like it so much and always make posts about missing it? Obviously there is something there.

 

Usually the only people who miss it are the gankers who are doing it in the first place.  They want your stuff.  The people who actually get ganked aren't so hot on the idea.

 

and what do you base that on?

Are you saying you think people seriously enjoy getting robbed by characters specifically constructed to do just that?

I don't think people enjoy getting robbed.....I think people get a rush from the sense of danger and risk involved in doing something in a game.

When I PvP'd in Ultima Online my pulse would jump through the roof and adrenaline would pump.  I've been playing WOW for 3 years and NOT ONCE has that happend in PvP or PvE. 

In UO there were certian roads on the map that I bought stuff from vendors on and I did my business as quick as possible and got the hell out because there was sense of REAL danger there.  NOT ONCE have I had that feeling playing WOW, WAR, etc.

I didn't play a lot of EQ, but I'd imagine there would be a similar effect when getting in a fight that you weren't very confident you would make it out alive.  You die, you pay the consequence......it makes the fights you choose (and sometimes the ones you dont) more meaningful, and by consequence more exciting.

I'm not saying its for everyone....but I think the niche following is more expansive than griefers and a-holes.

Originally posted by nanoviper

It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases.

       Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. 

       What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential.

     Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?

You are one hundred percent true. I'm an old schooler from Asherons Call myself and none of these crap ass mmorpg's live up to the old school titles or my expectations for that matter. I am currently not playing any mmorpg's because they all are horrible, Ived played them all you name it I have played it, nothing will ever compare to the old school mmorpg titles. It seems like mmorpg's are getting worst and worst, why?, because the companies are looking at dollar bills and not fun factors associated with it in the process.

  Ever since AC, EQ, EQ2 and AC2 and shadowbane, this genre has become a pile of shit.