Originally posted by Zatara

Ihmotepp,

I read your original post and just skipped to replying.  I like to group when I have time, the problem being I don't have a lot of time to do Raids and such anymore due to RL commitments, so I have to do things solo a lot, which I don't mind, because I like both grouping and soloing.

I love your idea, making everything accessible but in a different way, and for about similar effort. The only thing I would add for the Dungeon part would be a way to save your progress in the solo route. Meaning I could do 30 mins to an hour and progress a little bit in the dungeon each day for the next few days. A lot of the people in my situation solo sometimes because they don't have the time to find a group and when we do find a group a majority of the time it is filled with people that either want to rush through things causing wipes or don't know how to play their class/character, or both.

 

I think that would be very easy to implement, and I'd have no problem with this being a feature.

In fact, you're doing this "solo" anyway, so why not make the solo route instanced? You could still chat with people in the game, and we could tailor the experience a lot better if it was instanced.

The Quest ccould be broken up into several different instances, and you have to do all of them, but either once you do one you can skip to the next, or sometimes they could be done out of order.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I WANT to go out with that cute girl.

Well, she's going to slap you in the face and call you a pig.

Ok, well I don't really want to go out with her now.

Oh, then I guess you didn't really WANT to go out with her like you said you did.

I WANT a hamburger. 

OK, I'm going to make it with dog shit.

Well, now I'm not going to eat it.

Well, I guess you didn't really WANT a hamburger did you?

WTF?? Your argument doesn't make a lot of sense.

Of course I don't WANT it after you screw it all up. 

 I *WANT* you to make any kind of logical sense.  Guess we can't always get what we want.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Um, no.

I played WoW, quit because the grouping game before you get to raiding sucks. It does not reward groupers, and it's easier and more efficient to just solo to the level cap.

What you're talking about is penalizing the group for grouping.

I get in a group. We need to decide our strategy. Who's going to pull, tank, etc., or who's going to use what skills in a skill based game. We need to decide where we can go for ourt group size. Can we do Giant Bears, or do we need one more player for that? Should we do the boots of speed quest, or nobody needs that quest?

 

So you're not grouping because you want to play with people.  You're grouping due to a MIN/MAX formula to lvl as quickly as possible only to bitch about how sucky the entire journey was.  OOOoooh.  Fun.

Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content.  That should be reason enough to want to group up.   Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs.  Grouping provides a challenge.  Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)  

Originally posted by Josher

Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content.  That should be reason enough to want to group up.   Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs.  Grouping provides a challenge.  Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)   

Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of?  As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing.  Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly.  Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well.  Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined.  Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

That's a challenge?

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

That's the problem, it doesn't make soloing matter more.  Groupers will *ALWAYS* get more XP, better loot, better gear and faster progression because they can take on harder mobs at higher levels than any soloer ever could.  If a level-10 solo player can only beat level-10 mobs and a group of level-10 players can take on level-15 mobs, the groupers are going to automatically get more by the mere fact they are fighting harder mobs.  There's no need to increase the take if a level-10 group decides to fight level-10 mobs, those mobs are already inherently beneath the group.

Yeah, if that really was the case. Nowadays you can just wait the few extra hours it takes to get from 10 to 15, making the benefits of grouping nigh useless from the start. Most quests for lvl15 also aren't even available at lvl10, so killing those harder mobs does no good when you could just do the quests for your level instead.

Usually what happens is that soloer gets lower exp at a faster rate and group gets higher exp at a slower rate, and there's an increased risk because when fighting harder mobs things are more likely to go wrong.

If gaining levels really took a long time so that it'd actually be more than a marginal benefit to group, then things would be better. But now it's not really balanced at all. Make a group that may or may not work to get extra exp, or just solo for an hour more to get the same benefit? 

What about making different MMOs for different people? Make heavily group forced MMOs where you can't even kill anything solo, then make solo friendly MMOs where solo is equal to grouping.

I think the term MMORPG currently is way too generic to the point that it doesn't help neither the developers or the players. Everyone hopes for a "perfect" MMO, yet everyone has a totally different thing in their mind and will bash anything different than that. Read a comment like "This game sucks" for a MMO and it's like you had read nothing. Read it for a non-MMO and you had actually read something. Let's face it, there are a lot of ideas and trends for MMOs but a lot of them are contradicting. The developers try to please everyone cause they want the largest possible customer-base but most don't realize they can't please everyone, so at the end they please just a low minority that had low standards in the first place. When it comes to offline games we have:

1. Action games
2. Sport games
3. Strategy games
4. Adventure games
5. RPGs
6. FPS games
7. Puzzle games

(and maybe some more)

When it comes to online games we have:

1. MMORPGs

If you think about it, MMORPG mostly refers to a technology (= many players playing the same game at the same time through the internet) than actual gameplay. It is not even about "RPG" for many games that choose to categorize as such - they use it cause they want to point out the technology.

I think this situation has to change.

My answer:

For all the reasons I play MMORPGs, when I play a MMORPGs, I do care about maximizing my time and effort spent in achieving anything that is horizontally permanent progression, in other words, power over other players.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Zatara

Ihmotepp,

I read your original post and just skipped to replying.  I like to group when I have time, the problem being I don't have a lot of time to do Raids and such anymore due to RL commitments, so I have to do things solo a lot, which I don't mind, because I like both grouping and soloing.

I love your idea, making everything accessible but in a different way, and for about similar effort. The only thing I would add for the Dungeon part would be a way to save your progress in the solo route. Meaning I could do 30 mins to an hour and progress a little bit in the dungeon each day for the next few days. A lot of the people in my situation solo sometimes because they don't have the time to find a group and when we do find a group a majority of the time it is filled with people that either want to rush through things causing wipes or don't know how to play their class/character, or both.

 

 

I think that would be very easy to implement, and I'd have no problem with this being a feature.

In fact, you're doing this "solo" anyway, so why not make the solo route instanced? You could still chat with people in the game, and we could tailor the experience a lot better if it was instanced.

The Quest ccould be broken up into several different instances, and you have to do all of them, but either once you do one you can skip to the next, or sometimes they could be done out of order.

I was thinking along those lines almost exactly! If only we could get a developer to put these ideas into a game. I have been following swtor and it sounds like they may be doing something like this. But you can never tell until they actually release the game or give specific details which they havent done yet.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Usually what happens is that soloer gets lower exp at a faster rate and group gets higher exp at a slower rate, and there's an increased risk because when fighting harder mobs things are more likely to go wrong.

That's not really been my experience, although it probably varies from game to game.  Considering just the time actually playing, I can make 2-3 levels per hour in a group or a single level a day playing as a solo, if that.  Sometimes I just want to go up a level or two so I can use a new skill or weapon so I join a group and before I even notice it, I'm 5 levels higher.  That's because I'm able to take on much, much higher level mobs with a group than I ever could do solo and I can do it faster and easier without wasting nearly as much time recovering between encounters, wasting healing, etc.  In a group, you get hurt and people dog-pile healing on you before you even notice, really.  By the time you get to the next encounter, you're back up to maximum.

I don't see there being any difference speed-wise, in fact most groups I've been with tend to *RUN* as fast as they can through dungeons, ignoring loot in favor of XP as fast as they can get it.  That's one of the reasons I really don't like groups, I like to play slow and explore and loot everything.

Originally posted by scuubeedoo

What about making different MMOs for different people? Make heavily group forced MMOs where you can't even kill anything solo, then make solo friendly MMOs where solo is equal to grouping.

And that's fine, but those MMOs still have to make money and therefore, have to cater to a large enough audience willing to pay a monthly fee so they can stay in business.  There just aren't enough group-heavy players out there who want to play a game and can pay them sufficiently to make it worthwhile.  If there were, you'd have those games already.  It's not that it's an untapped market, it's that it's an insufficient market.

In responce to a post on page 13.   I've also noticed that these tend to be groups that are so item light that they start looking for any fast way to gain back what they missed "RUNNING" through those dungeons, and side quests.  I like that if I choose to solo or group that I choose to and that I'm not required, or forced to dependent on the game mechanics.  As for the solo(less expirence) vs group(more expirence), I have not seen a difference with games like Guild Wars at all.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Josher

Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content.  That should be reason enough to want to group up.   Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs.  Grouping provides a challenge.  Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)   

Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of?  As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing.  Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly.  Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well.  Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined.  Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

That's a challenge?

I have to agree with Cephus here, and i apologize in advance to anyone i offend, but soloing can easily be by far much more difficult that grouping.  Those who say otherwise have in my opinion obviously never tried to solo single target nukers wearing cloth in multiple pull only/fast re-spawn in close quarters situations, or healers in general where your hits are usually as hard as a 3 year old's (eventually mana runs out in crappy solo gear.)  Whereas the most difficult thing to manage in a group situation with the same classes is either in the case of the nuker: make sure you are hitting what the tank is hitting and do as much damage as possible w/out stealing aggro, or in the case of the healer: keep everyone alive and buff/de-taunt wherever appropriate.  Crowd control can have a bit more difficult time in a group compared to soloing (i suppose) if they are indeed doing their job properly, and this can be made more difficult of course by other group members not knowing their roles (the latter part is somewhat true in all cases tho.)  Assuming you are in a good group tho, meaning people know their roles and have at least a small understanding of game mechanics, then most MMO's become cake (unless you are trying to accomplish something the group is just not level appropriate to do.)  I do agree with Josher that you inevitably end up with better gear by grouping, but that only supports my claim that soloing is harder.  Its a lot easier to kill mob x with all blues than all greens, and even easier still with a full group wearing all blues... There is however, a good deal of the time, a real challenge provided with the simple act of finding a good group in and of itself.  Maybe that is the challenge he speaks of....

To the OP, I love most of your ideas through and through, however - as someone who solo's quite a large amount - I don't necessarily think 4 to 1 is the perfect time equation.  I suggest rather have it vary based on the value of the reward.  In other words, maybe only twice as long for rewards marginally better than the standard solo quests up to four or even five times longer for epic valued rewards. 

Sorry but in any MMO with well thought our raids and mini raids, grouping is far more complex than soloing. True in many normal quests there is a lot of leeway, but thats because you are doing pre raid grouping.

Soloing can be difficult, don't get me wrong and if you are a support class it is certainly more than just get in there and bash them. But even in tough pre raid grouping quests in makes soloing seem simplistic and a bit boring really.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Um, no.

I played WoW, quit because the grouping game before you get to raiding sucks. It does not reward groupers, and it's easier and more efficient to just solo to the level cap.

What you're talking about is penalizing the group for grouping.

I get in a group. We need to decide our strategy. Who's going to pull, tank, etc., or who's going to use what skills in a skill based game. We need to decide where we can go for ourt group size. Can we do Giant Bears, or do we need one more player for that? Should we do the boots of speed quest, or nobody needs that quest?

 

So you're not grouping because you want to play with people.  You're grouping due to a MIN/MAX formula to lvl as quickly as possible only to bitch about how sucky the entire journey was.  OOOoooh.  Fun.

Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content.  That should be reason enough to want to group up.   Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs.  Grouping provides a challenge.  Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)  

 

You CAN group if you want to.

But if you do, I'm going to gimp you.

Well, I don't really want to group if you're going to gimp me.

Oh, I guess you don't REALLY want to group do you? I guess you REALLY just want to min max dont' you?

Uh, no, I REALLY want to group.

Ok, you CAN group. But if you do, I'm going to gimp you.

Well, if you're going to gimp me I dont' want to group. I don't like being gimped.

Well, then I guess you dont' REALLY want to group do you? If you REALLY liked to group, you wouldn't mind being gimped would you?

Uh, yes, I mind being gimped. How about I CAN group, and I'm not gimped?

NO!!!!!! That would be FORCED GROUPING!!! Wahhhh!

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Josher

Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content.  That should be reason enough to want to group up.   Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs.  Grouping provides a challenge.  Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)   

Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of?  As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing.  Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly.  Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well.  Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined.  Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

That's a challenge?

Working with other people, working by yourself and not having to coordinate, cooperate, or compromise with anyone else.

Hmmm, which one is harder?

Only taking on mobs you know you can beat solo, or being in a group and HOPING everyone does their job so you don't get the entire party wiped.

Hmmmm,  which one is harder?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Josher

Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content.  That should be reason enough to want to group up.   Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs.  Grouping provides a challenge.  Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)   

Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of?  As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing.  Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly.  Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well.  Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined.  Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

That's a challenge?

 

I don't know which MMOs you're playing Cephus, but ussually when you do a dungeon that requires a group, you have a much higher chance of wiping.   Have you ever actually been in a dungeon on a MMO before=)   That was a joke I hope?  I'm not talking hypotheticals here, where in the perfect MMO, soloing can be harder.  In WOW and basically every MMO released int he past 10 years, GROUP content is more difficult than solo content.   If your'e trying to tell me its easier to kill even con mobs alone compared to a eilte/hard mobs and bosses that can kill everyone in the group in a few seconds, I really don't know what to tell you.   I really don't know which MMOs you've played but you obviously havn't done any dungeons in any MMO released in the past 5 or 6 years to say soloing is tougher=)  Maybe you're stuck back in 1998 in EQ where the game wasn't designed for solo play yet.  Are you living in todays worlds or 10 years ago?

By your logic, shooting hoops by yourself is tougher than actually playing a game;)   Tossing a football back and forth is tougher than being in the super bowl?  Is that what you're saying because thats what you just said?  As a quarterback, all you have to worry about is throwing the ball.  Just one little role.  Easy.  Simple.  Being on the offensive line?  SIMPLE!!!  You just stand there and block the guy in front of you.  So easy., hehe

Yes, I'm cool with that.

To me, forced grouping means I can't advance past this point or get X without grouping.  If I have another option, even if it takes 4-10x as long, it's still an option.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Working with other people, working by yourself and not having to coordinate, cooperate, or compromise with anyone else.

Hmmm, which one is harder?

Only taking on mobs you know you can beat solo, or being in a group and HOPING everyone does their job so you don't get the entire party wiped.

Hmmmm,  which one is harder?

Given the same assumptions about both, working by yourself.  Funny how you assume that soloers are only going to take on mobs they know they can beat, but groups have to HOPE that they can beat their mobs.  The group dynamics in most games are so cut and dried, anyone who has managed to get above a certain level obviously knows their role and can perform it well enough to get the job done.  I can't think of too many groups I've been in where the healers didn't know how to heal, the tanks didn't know how to tank and the DDs didn't know how to deal damage.  It's not exactly rocket science.

However, a single character is much more likely to die in any given encounter than an entire group.  When you are the only one there and have to carry the load and act as *EVERY* part of a group by yourself, you have a much higher liklihood of getting yourself killed.

I can't say I've seen an entire group wipe in a long, long, long time.  Individuals have died, certainly, mostly because they did something stupid, but everyone in the group, down to the last man?  Nope.  If they did, then probably the whole group was being stupid.

Maybe that explains your arguments.

Originally posted by scuubeedoo

When it comes to online games we have:

1. MMORPGs

Um, all 7 of your previous genres are also online games.

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

And that's fine, but those MMOs still have to make money and therefore, have to cater to a large enough audience willing to pay a monthly fee so they can stay in business.  There just aren't enough group-heavy players out there who want to play a game and can pay them sufficiently to make it worthwhile.  If there were, you'd have those games already.  It's not that it's an untapped market, it's that it's an insufficient market.

The 4th most successful MMO in the market was group-based. The game was also very hardcore, so it's not written in stone that a group-based MMO couldn't make as much profit as the solo-based ones until some company makes a casual grouping game as well. It's actually in development right now, so we'll see which prediction will come true.