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If you advocate solo play in MMORPG's is this acceptable to you, or would you call this "forced grouping" ? I'm going to give you access to ALL the same loot, gear in the game as group players. And also ALL the same quests. However, to get the same loot solo, to do the same quests, will take you roughly 4x longer than a full group. It's very simple. Grinding: A full group grinding mobs they can handle for roughly their level/skill levels, will make 1,000 xp per hour each of actually killing mobs, not taking into consideration chatting for organization and strategy, travel to get together, bio breaks, waiting on link dead group members, waiting on someone to replace broken gear, raising dead party members, arguments about splitting loot, etc. A solo player will make 250 xp per hour of actually killing mobs, and of course will have none of the above mentioned downtime that comes with being in a group. The reasoning here is there is no need for me to be upset that I'm waiting to rez someone, or traveling to a place that has good group content for my size party. Sure, I could be grinding mobs solo right now and not wasting this time, but I'm more than compensated for it because I'm going to make xp 4x faster once we get going again. But if my group is a bunch of asshats, I can always do solo content till I find another group, or just be content making progress a little bit slower than in a group. Questing: For quests, almost all quests will have a solo route and a group route to completion. Let's say it's your basic kill x quest, and bring back hides, antlers, bones, that drop from the mobs for reward. The solo player will be able to go kill bears to bring back bear hides, and will need to kill 400 bears that drop one hide each. The group will be able to kill Ogres that wear bear hides and drop 4 bear hides each, so the group only needs to kill 100 ogres (takes about the same time for the group to whack an Ogre as a solo player to whack a bear). Then BOTH the solo player and the group get the exact same reward each, boots of speed, sword +1, whatever. Dungeons: Boss mobs at the bottom of the dungeon will drop special loot. The Group will take the direct route, straight to the bottom of the dungeon, meeting hard group encounters along the way. The solo player will take the back door, a route to the bottom that is much longer, filled with solo encounters. Instead of battling the boss mob, the solo player will sneak in and steal the loot, with a key, for example, that drops after doing enough solo content. Bottom line is the full group gets to the bottom of the dungeon in an hour, beats the boss mob, gets the drop. The solo players fights solo content for 4 hours, gets the key drop, avoids the boss mob, gets the same loot drop. Of course groups cannot get the reward doing the solo content. Solo mobs go grey for the group, and do not drop the key.
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9/26/09 12:58:28 PM#2
Personally I don't think that idea would be considered forced grouping since it's possible to get the same type of loot for each party/person. I see it more as encouraged grouping. This type of game play would solve a few problems when recruiting new players for a guild. It would save having to gear them up and would show a guild that that person is willing to put in the time and effort. That is... if there even is guilds in said game. ------ |
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9/26/09 1:37:28 PM#3
If long term rate of progress is a big factor as you've set it up, then the game is too grindy and I wouldn't like it regardless of the grouping mechanics. Any sort of "you progress slower if your playstyle is X" mechanic runs into that problem, unless players don't particularly care how quickly they progress. |
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9/26/09 1:41:19 PM#4
Solo players shouldn't be playing that kind of game anyway, since it caters to group playstyle.
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9/26/09 1:54:49 PM#5
On the one hand, PUGers will have a lot of downtime spent with making and keeping groups. That's time that the solo player can use for grinding dungeons, evening things out a bit. On the other, friends who play together often in regular groups will have little downtime and get to endgame much faster. Some will call this an outrageous advantage. I don't care much, to be honest. As long as you make a big part of the game available to all play styles, it seems fair to me. I usually prefer my solo experience harder than my group experience anyway.
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9/26/09 2:22:40 PM#6
Originally posted by Hyanmen
Agreed. If the game takes 4x longer to obtain something solo than in a group the game is obviously designed specifically for group play. Since grouping is mandatory in such a game, it better have packed servers otherwise it will just be an LFG-fest. |
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9/26/09 2:31:08 PM#7
Originally posted by LynxJSA
Agreed. If the game takes 4x longer to obtain something solo than in a group the game is obviously designed specifically for group play. Since grouping is mandatory in such a game, it better have packed servers otherwise it will just be an LFG-fest.
How does it make grouping mandatory? You would still be able to solo all the way up, and do anything you want. Now, if it is like with some MMOs, where you basically kill a mob REALLY slow alone, and need to rest all the time, then yes, that is crap for a pure soloist. However, if that is not the case, and you simply progress slower, than I think it is fine. Lets assume something like this: 1 player: 100% exp and 100% drop rate 2 players: 110% exp and 110% drop rate 3 players: 130% exp and 130% drop rate 4 players: 170% exp and 170% drop rate 5 players: 200% exp and 200% drop rate 6 players: 250% exp and 250% drop rate Then, lets assume that the other 150% extra exp comes from the fact that you kill faster in the group. (estimation here) So, as you can see, it is not the soloist that is losing exp, it is simply a large bonus for being in a group. Even better, with the large increase in exp per person, it stimulates larger groups. You have 5 people, and don't know if you need a 6th? Well, you will all gain 50% more exp... That even out pretty damn well. As long as you are still playing the game constantly, and not "gimped", I dont see any reason why you would HAVE to group.
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9/26/09 2:36:10 PM#8
I like the ideas of the OP.
These davelopers could offer me something fresh with this kind of mechanic and even more. Like the quest mobs for instance, Instead of the ogres themselves dropping hides why not two ogres carrying hide racks. But the 2 mobs will react differently. Some will drop the hide rack and draw weapons to fight. Others will turn and run with the rack in hand, to find help and even the odds. Others will even go so far as to run towards a nearby campfire(if one is nearby of course) and try to burn the hides you so badly want, and must be stunned/slowed/slept something before the hides burn. Even give a fail timer to give incentive to get moving.
Mobs that react differently imo would add ALOT of freshness to a game. |
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9/26/09 2:37:45 PM#9
I think groupers and soloers should be rewarded the same for the same amount of time invested. I do consider it fair to figure in the extra time required to organize a group. I just don't understand why people that prefer grouping think they should be better rewarded for grouping. Grouping is easier than soloing. You have your tank being kept alive by the healer, and DPSers kill mobs with no worries. Add in a CC class and it is a breeze. Where is the extra challenge that earns an extra reward? Sure, you can argue that MMOs are supposed to be for groups because they are massively multiplayer, but I think it is a flimsy argument. To a solo oriented player, other players add more life to the gameworld than a single player game is capable of adding with NPCs. I can understand from a business perspective why MMOs are group oriented. Forcing players together can lead to relationships that make quitting the game more difficult, and MMOs require player retention. I'm also a very efficient person and a quick learner, and I hate being slowed down by others, lol. The ability to solo in MMOs is much less frustrating. I played WoW for quite awhile and did a lot of grouping once I found a good group to run with, and enjoyed it. Unfortunately it's not easy to find a good group in MMOs if you don't have a bunch of RL friends you game with. |
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9/26/09 2:43:31 PM#10
Originally posted by econ24 So you want a soloing game? That's fine and all, but don't forget us groupers- we want our own game as well. Also, you're saying that cooperating with other players is not more challenging than working alone? I can't help but disagree. Monsters also tend to be quite a bit more harder than when you solo, for obvious reasons. The reason it's not easy to find a good group in MMO is because you play solo MMO's. Of course grouping takes a backseat there and players are not as experienced about grouping in general there.
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9/26/09 2:43:40 PM#11
Originally posted by Ihmotepp None of the things you cite as examples are actually what happens in games today, so your question is moot. |
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9/26/09 2:56:25 PM#12
Originally posted by Hyanmen
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9/26/09 3:00:25 PM#13
Originally posted by econ24
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9/26/09 3:00:28 PM#14
Eh? I think I'm beginning to understand the grouping advocates a bit here then. Normally, I like the following analogy as far as solo play bearing "meaning" in massively multiplayer games go: Professionally, I work alone. Of course I have many many contacts, but my work does not necessitate me going to work in office cubicles. I don't work as part of a team. So, some would say that I "solo RL" :) This does not mean I should "just go live in a forest or on the top of a mountain". I like being part of the society, socializing with them, going out for drink, chats. Hey, in all probability I'm more social than your average office worker. Not to mention I utilize the society more than them - I dig deep into the sources of knowledge they gather, I follow what new stuff is up in many different venues, I help out, I create, I consume, whatever... This is pretty "multiplayer" to me. So I always say, solo play in MMOs does have a meaning, it's not "anti-multiplayer", maybe just "non-group". On the other hand, "soloing RL" as I do (ehem, excuse me while I *lol* once more at this phrase), I do see and acknowledge the value of working in groups. Hey, if 20 guys come together, they can do stuff I just can't, at least not in the same frame of time. Say, build a house; say, build and carry a big, impressive enterprise... IRL, that is the sort of stuff that actually "encourages grouping". People come together, and do some harder, more rewarding stuff faster. That does not mean you cannot do stuff alone or earn a living along - heck, or that you can't get rich or be the most famed humanitarian by yourself. It means there's a place for groups and a place for "solo" work. Does it not make sense that gameplay follow this logic? After all, if you take away the "encouragement" part of group play, you can bet seeing groups around will be a rarity.
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9/26/09 3:02:13 PM#15
The ideal rate of XP for the average group is equal to the rate of XP for an expert Solo player. Speaking in terms of actual XP rate (including downtime/assemblage/etc.) When this is true, it is nearly always better to group, but soloing remains viable. The only time grouping isn't superior is if (a) you're an expert and (b) your group is absolutely territble. But for grouping to be worthwhile in a game, it must provide incentive for all players, up to and including the expert, to get at least equal XP from grouping. Planetside had serious problems with this, as XP was split with a marginal bonus on top. So if you were average or worse, grouping was better XP, but if you were noticeably above average you were suffering reduced XP rate on average. Boiling this down to a "Group XP Bonus" percentage isn't useful, because the real balancing point that matters is having elite mobs in the game (because otherwise grouping is going to be boring as hell anyway, unless you're doing large packs of mobs (which also works.)) But you definitely have to mention player skill, because there's a huge difference between a noob and an expert. |
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9/26/09 3:06:16 PM#16
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
I don't think solo advocates are looking for exactly the same equipment but comparable equipment. However, saying it will take 4x longer is not going to sell your proposal as what you are still doing is punishing people for not grouping with you. There should be raid gear that gives special attributes only during raids. There should be excellent gear available in group parts of dungeons which should be sellable. There should also be other types of excellent/good gear that one could get solo. Remember, just because you are in a group doesn't mean the encounter is actually harder. I've been in group encounters that were just as easy as solo encounters. I was just in a group which was needed to accomplish them. But my part was still just as easy. So I don't really feel like being rewarded for being in a group. I do feel like being rewarded for challenging material, whether it be solo, group or raid. |
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9/26/09 4:04:59 PM#17
The problem is that this, like most other plans, give extra XP and extra loot to groups for killing the exact same mobs. This is going the exact wrong way. It ought to operate equally for everyone. If you kill X-level mob, you ought to get Y XP, no matter if you do it solo or group. Where groups ought to do better is they can do higher level mobs than soloers can. If a level 10 soloer can kill level 10 mobs, they ought to get the same XP as *ANYONE* does for killing level 10 mobs. A group ought to be able to handle, say, level 15 mobs and they should get the level 15 XP for doing so. That's the only benefit to being in a group that you ought to have, the ability to take on mobs and dungeons of a higher level than you could possibly do alone. Anything other than that is giving inordinate benefits to groupers. Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, lots more |
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9/26/09 4:12:22 PM#18
Originally posted by Cephus404
In an MMO that gives NO bonus exp for groups, you will never see people group to gain exp. Mobs five levels above you? Good luck getting quests. On top of that, you STILL wont gain exp as fast as the soloers. People assume this: "Well, there are 6 of them, so they will kill 6 times as fast, and therefore break even". No. They still need to walk inbetween mobs, and compete for spawns. If you take a full group out anywhere to level in a certain area, i would be willing to bet that you are killing faster than they are spawning, and cannot actually maximize your exp. However, as a soloer, you can just go mob to mob to mob, and kill in a flowing fashion. Every MMO that I can think of gives bonus exp for extra group members, but it often isnt enough of an insentive. Even if you COULD match the EXP , by killing higher level mobs, you would still not match the loot amounts, because you would be effectively killing less mobs per person. |
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Originally posted by LynxJSA
Agreed. If the game takes 4x longer to obtain something solo than in a group the game is obviously designed specifically for group play. Since grouping is mandatory in such a game, it better have packed servers otherwise it will just be an LFG-fest.
I find this very interesting. How does the group making progress 4x faster affect your solo play? It doesn't, does it? Or to put it another way, let's say you're playing this game and having a good time playing it solo, and this "group" feature doesn't exist. you're making progress, chatting with other players, collecting gear, crafting, exploring, etc. Now I add the group feature, and groups make faster progress than you, would this change the game so you won't like it anymore? Why is that? Also, the majority polled seem to think this is fair. Group players get a challenge, and are rewarded for the challenge, solo players get access to all the content, quests, gear, etc.
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Originally posted by solarine
I had considered this, and do not consider it a major downfall of the design. If rl friends for example, get together and form a very efficient group with little or no downtime because they are so coordinated they all take a bathroom break before they start to play and synchronize their bladders, then hooray for them. Let these extremely well organized regular groups make really fast progress through the content, I see no harm to the game there. These folks will get to the end game (assuming there is one) faster, and that's fine.
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