Originally posted by dirtyjoe78

 

Very well stated the farther you dig into this the more you can see how providing "AI" on the level some people want is near impossible if you want to keep hi res textures, shadows, weather effects, colision detection, dynamic lighting etc in the game.   

Do you really think that graphics calculations are done by the server? REALLY?! I thought only console gamers were this ignorant. ...and maybe mac-users.

I wonder if people actually prefer fighting zombies rather than formidable opponents.  If AI added little weight to server performance, I really wonder if people would still prefer mindless enemies.

Originally posted by heremypet

I'm not a programmer, but I really don't see how better AI would load down the server as bad as some are claiming.  I don't have to be a coding guru to understand that since a mob will aggro you if you get too close to it, then it must also be able to "see" any other similar mobs during battle.

Also when you attack mobs, some nearby mobs join in, well suppose you took that radius or whatever and increased it by 400% and had it say "HELP!" when the monster is low on HP.   Increasing the add radius when his HP is less than a certain amount and having him yell for help, yea that would bring any server down HAHA =P

AI and scripts are not the same thing. Scripts do not bog down the server the server too bad for a slight complexity increase that would doom most players. A script is just a bunch of conditioanal statements that are often confused with AI. You are describing a script. AI is a learning algorithm and can be quite CPU intensive and (disk space consuming for recording experiences) when it comes time to take all the "experiences" the that have been collected and then calculating learning and altering the algorithms behavior. A script is a static behavior that every game is already using, very few use AI.

An actual AI would trounce players as it would learn movement tactics and skill combinations on its own, for example it may just learn to run away from certain classes that cannot stop it from running to collect assistance. It may learn to stick to the players backside so they cannot attack it (which is possible since the script is running server side). There is no telling exactly what it will be capable of doing but if given a somewhat equal footing against players it will learn how to beat most of them.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by dirtyjoe78

 

Very well stated the farther you dig into this the more you can see how providing "AI" on the level some people want is near impossible if you want to keep hi res textures, shadows, weather effects, colision detection, dynamic lighting etc in the game.   

 

Do you really think that graphics calculations are done by the server? REALLY?! I thought only console gamers were this ignorant. ...and maybe mac-users.

At the least, collision detection needs to be verified server side to detect/prevent cheating ;p

It doesn't need to be done in real-time as data collection can be done and then evaluation can take place later on seperate machines.

Originally posted by midmagic

At the least, collision detection needs to be verified server side to detect/prevent cheating ;p

 

Granted.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by dirtyjoe78

 

Very well stated the farther you dig into this the more you can see how providing "AI" on the level some people want is near impossible if you want to keep hi res textures, shadows, weather effects, colision detection, dynamic lighting etc in the game.   

 

Do you really think that graphics calculations are done by the server? REALLY?! I thought only console gamers were this ignorant. ...and maybe mac-users.

i see you want to bog down 2 machines while your server crunches angles for lighting affecting stealth and weather the nearest mob should attack and what attack it should use etc, your home machine can be crunching the dynamic lighting, shadows, weather effects hi res textures etc...next time i will be more clear for people like yourself that are unable to see the point.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Jackio81

and why is it no one seems to notice.

This is a topic I've brought up before in a couple posts I've made but I think it deserves it's own thread.

How is it you never hear any critic or gamer asking questions about the AI in an MMO when it's one of the first questions asked in any other type of game.

Of course you might answer that it's not easy to cram a good AI into an MMO considering how difficult it is to create MMOs in the first place...but still.

Just about every MMO it's the same thing, when you enter an enemy camp, you stand just outside their aggro range even though you're visible in plane site. You pick the straggler that divided from the group and you pull....he runs over and the two of you start taking whacks at each other for a couple seconds..he keels over and dies, you sit down to drink or rest up, and wait to do it again, and you do this throughout the entire game.

Some times you accidently pull more than one and I'd have to run away or simply take them all on while using a  healing potion. There have been times my PC has crashed during this moment, and when I'd log back on I'd notice my character  had taken them all out by using auto attack.

So why is it......?

 

 

Because players don't want to be frustrated.

Frustration comes from insanely difficult games, not mildly challenging ones that MMOs can't even claim to be. It doesn't matter how much of a nit-wit the general gamer might be, if it's too easy he will get bored.

MMOs have boring PvE, insanely boring PvE which its only draw is either to farm one's way to riches or group with others and experience a more open ended chat room.

I don't know, maybe it's just me and I'm finding lesser and lesser reason to care about MMOs anyone....obviously I'm noticing more flaws in these types of games more and more as time has gone on.

Darkfall AI is quite advanced actually. More like Quake bots.

Its kind of sad. MMORPGs have had the same mob AI since EverQuest. It's actually been dumbed down quite a bit by games like WoW and LotRO. But thats what happens when casual games take the market... 

I dunno, MMORPG's come with the best AI's in the business, they are called "other players" and fighting them is really what the game should be about.  Why create Npcs mobs that fight like players, just fight other players and you've solved your problem.

Single player games can't do this of course, so they put a bit more effort into AI

Originally posted by Kyleran

I dunno, MMORPG's come with the best AI's in the business, they are called "other players" and fighting them is really what the game should be about.  Why create Npcs mobs that fight like players, just fight other players and you've solved your problem.

Single player games can't do this of course, so they put a bit more effort into AI

 

 

Honestly this has been the one feature that has kept me playing MMOs for so long, the PvP. For me the period of time spent leveling and gearing up has always been considering the b.s. period. I mean why else do you think so many players try to max level as fast as they can, to get through all the boring PvE parts and get to where end-game let's you deal with players with maxed out abilities and gear.

Truth be also told the only interesting PvE encounters I've ever noticed have been in raids at max level when developers finally decided to make PvE encounters interesting.

For example the best times I spent in WoW was with my guild before TBC raiding BWL and Naxx, only time developers decided to give a shit about the overall experience and encounters in PvE.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I dunno, MMORPG's come with the best AI's in the business, they are called "other players" and fighting them is really what the game should be about.  Why create Npcs mobs that fight like players, just fight other players and you've solved your problem.

Single player games can't do this of course, so they put a bit more effort into AI

 

 

This would seem to be the answer to me

Easy.

There is no difficulty setting.

There are more people who are bad at timing and unfamiliar with playing MMOs than there are those who are. It's that simple.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I dunno, MMORPG's come with the best AI's in the business, they are called "other players" and fighting them is really what the game should be about.  Why create Npcs mobs that fight like players, just fight other players and you've solved your problem.

Single player games can't do this of course, so they put a bit more effort into AI

 

 

Yes, and those games come with the added "benefit" of Ganking and Griefing... I've had MORE than my fill of MMO PVP. Pass. If I want PvP I'll play UT3 or Quake4.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I dunno, MMORPG's come with the best AI's in the business, they are called "other players" and fighting them is really what the game should be about.  Why create Npcs mobs that fight like players, just fight other players and you've solved your problem.

Single player games can't do this of course, so they put a bit more effort into AI

Considering that this thread is about PVE...

Developers always could allow players to take control of the monsters. Which has been hilarious, for the monsters, with the few games that have given this one a go. And I'm not talking about LOTRO.

The problem with upgraded NPC scripts is that what does it accomplish?

The genre could be completely flipped on its head by going action game style. Tanks still tank but with mob debilitating abilities. DPS still dps. Healers still heal but probably would need to run occasionally as we know healers are evil. Of course tank, heal, dps roles could also be removed and other target selection scripts would apply but this would be a very different game and will not be dealt with here. This is assuming that tank, heal, dps roles are realtively unchanged.

However, while we have added more realism to the gameplay, what have we actually changed? Tanks now tank with abilities that make sense. No more mama jokes. They body block, trip, grapple, stun, knock down, etc while the mob is hellbent on killing dps and healers that are the actual threats. But what have we changed? The game would certainly play more like an action game but it would still be the same old scripted encounters.

What really needs to change first is that npcs needs to be more like player characters. They need to hunt in groups that make sense or have a larger number of abilities that can actually be used intelligently. No more single grossly powerful boss mob with a handful of AoE abilities and painful strikes for the tank. Now, we can actually apply some AI and/or serious scripts.

Afterall, if a player played one of the dragon bosses in the majority of these games, there really isn't much they  can do intelligently besides change its target of choice because they are grossly limited in abilities. Wooo, I got a melee attack and my breath weapon. Watch out for my tail! The only thing fun about playing one of these bosses would be how creatively the player could wipe the floor with the raid. No AI, or human intelligence, is needed here. Just a script that says kill anything that heals then kill everyone else. Now, if the dragon had a plethera of single target mezzes, stuns, fears, damage spells, interrupts, whatever. Things would be far more interesting from an AI perspective.

To sum up.

Give NPCS something they can actually do intelligently aside from kill the healer. Then start applying better scripts and AI to the npcs.

Originally posted by heremypet

I wonder if people actually prefer fighting zombies rather than formidable opponents.  If AI added little weight to server performance, I really wonder if people would still prefer mindless enemies.

As Sovrath pointed out earlier, most gamers see the mobs as a means to an end. They are the path to their next ding and not often desired to be challenging.

Originally posted by midmagic

To sum up.

Give NPCS something they can actually do intelligently aside from kill the healer. Then start applying better scripts and AI to the npcs.

To continue....

Most people do not care and are happy to kill endless waves of non-thinking trash or games like Diablo, arcade hack-n-slashes, and FPS shoot 'em ups,  wouldn't be so popular. That isn't to say that a more difficult game couldn't be popular, but it would have to be done very well as they are fighting for a smaller market.

Challenging books? Not popular with the masses.

Challenging movies? Not popular with the masses.

There is a trend here...

Hardmode is niche and the niche is hard to appease.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Kyleran

I dunno, MMORPG's come with the best AI's in the business, they are called "other players" and fighting them is really what the game should be about.  Why create Npcs mobs that fight like players, just fight other players and you've solved your problem.

Single player games can't do this of course, so they put a bit more effort into AI

 

 

 

Yes, and those games come with the added "benefit" of Ganking and Griefing... I've had MORE than my fill of MMO PVP. Pass. If I want PvP I'll play UT3 or Quake4.

So AI is slow and simple because that's what people want? If AI became smarter wouldn't it act more like people do in PVP games? Isn't the only reason people think of it as ganking and griefing is because they die?
 

So if you deciede the AI is slow and boring maybe it's time to look for a game that replaces PVE AI with other players.

Originally posted by qazyman

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Kyleran

I dunno, MMORPG's come with the best AI's in the business, they are called "other players" and fighting them is really what the game should be about.  Why create Npcs mobs that fight like players, just fight other players and you've solved your problem.

Single player games can't do this of course, so they put a bit more effort into AI

 

 

 

Yes, and those games come with the added "benefit" of Ganking and Griefing... I've had MORE than my fill of MMO PVP. Pass. If I want PvP I'll play UT3 or Quake4.

So AI is slow and simple because that's what people want? If AI became smarter wouldn't it act more like people do in PVP games? Isn't the only reason people think of it as ganking and griefing is because they die?
 

So if you deciede the AI is slow and boring maybe it's time to look for a game that replaces PVE AI with other players.

No. Its not just because one dies(all too typical of a certain perspective). Its being out leveled, out numbered and engaged in fighting a mob when jumped thats annoying.  What ever the excuse/justification is, I'm not interested in it any more. Such games appeal to a limited demographic these days. Games that allow/encourage ganking/griefing niche themselves on release.  Which is fine, if thats their purpose(shrug).