Originally posted by Vaed

I enjoy competition and a good challenge.

Heh, I doubt most of you would be able to handle playing Classic Everquest.  

 

The bottom line is people want handouts and EZ mode. So, go on and whine about how that isn't the case and how I don't know what I'm talking about.. blah blah blah.

I simply don't understand how people can confuse their opinion with fact.

Originally posted by Vaed

I enjoy competition and a good challenge.

Heh, I doubt most of you would be able to handle playing Classic Everquest.  

 

The bottom line is people want handouts and EZ mode. So, go on and whine about how that isn't the case and how I don't know what I'm talking about.. blah blah blah.

EQ? Challenge? You had better be talking about PVP servers. Even then, there was little challenge once the pecking order was established. PVE was a chat room with a 3d mini-game attatched to it before PoP.

Originally posted by midmagic

Originally posted by Vaed

I enjoy competition and a good challenge.

Heh, I doubt most of you would be able to handle playing Classic Everquest.  

 

The bottom line is people want handouts and EZ mode. So, go on and whine about how that isn't the case and how I don't know what I'm talking about.. blah blah blah.

 

EQ? Challenge? You had better be talking about PVP servers. Even then, there was little challenge once the pecking order was established. PVE was a chat room with a 3d mini-game attatched to it before PoP.

lol sorry to ask but.. what is a pecking order? hahaha

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by midmagic

Originally posted by Vaed

I enjoy competition and a good challenge.

Heh, I doubt most of you would be able to handle playing Classic Everquest.  

 

The bottom line is people want handouts and EZ mode. So, go on and whine about how that isn't the case and how I don't know what I'm talking about.. blah blah blah.

 

EQ? Challenge? You had better be talking about PVP servers. Even then, there was little challenge once the pecking order was established. PVE was a chat room with a 3d mini-game attatched to it before PoP.

lol sorry to ask but.. what is a pecking order? hahaha

Google is your friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecking_order

Originally posted by Lansid

Originally posted by Swoogie

I hate it, well that seems a bit extreme but I really dont like it. For those of you who played EQ back then, imagine if Karnor's Castle was instance. That would have been a terrible zone. Why dont we see non-instanced dungeons anymore? I understand that instancing has its uses for CERTAIN things. Like if your doing a quest and there is a timeline and what not, that makes sense. I mean look at  these games today. I hate going into a dungeon and only having my party there.

 

Now the flamers will say that instances help us from not having to camp spawns and instead we all get our of zone and the mob is already spawned for us!

bah to that. I think that is dungeons/castles whatever were made with "named" mobs all over that had decent respawn rates with not to many place holders, then it would work. 

 

please explain the popularity AMONG players for instancing. I know that devs love it because it uses up less bandwidth on thier servers or w/e

 

Thanks!

 

SWOOGIE MCDOOGIE 

Easy... to avoid things like this....

 

/shout TRAIN INC!!!! MOVE OR DIE!!!!

or

/shout lvl 45 Cleric LFG PST (and then waiting up to an hour in a player-made queue because of lack of viable areas to level.)

or

Camping special items that are highly contested for, and an uberguild decides to train you into oblivion so they can get your spot.

 

But yeah, mainly CAMPING... camping... and more camping... which may take away from the whole "realism" of everyone being in the same place... I thought it was equally unrealistic that the mobs magically "pop" back into existence.

Don't get me wrong... in the day classic EQ was fun in some aspects... but no... not the camping part... or the boat part either, hated that goddamned boat.

Did you even read  my post before you quoted me?
 

1) In ever game I have played  since EQ, the mobs are teathered. Therefore; training doesnt matter

2) I said if there are named mobs with decent spawn rates and only a few place holders, then it would work. Think about it 2 place holders with a 15 min respawn. The rare loot can vary like it normally does ( well lesser)

3) There is nothing wrong with waiting to get a group. Go solo or find another place. It is not that hard.  Its pretty whinny if you ask me. I mean its full get over it. <-- sounds harsh but its true

Because for some reason the casual WoW generation loves to pay 15 bucks a month for a semi single player game that doesn't even have a persistent world.  

MMORPGs are social games. There is nothing more that I hate than finding an awesome cave and trying to enter "You do not have the right quest!" Or going into a cavern that should be filled with adventurers fighting their way down, but instead... I'm alone. Bad and lazy programming right there. But thats basically all Blizzard is, insanely lazy. 

Why instancing ?  Let me tell of you the days of old in Everquest.

Dungeons were not instanced.  People would set up "camps" in spots where a certain named mob dropped better then average loot.  For example, the dungeon lower guk.  The Froglok King dropped a mithril 2h sword & Crown of Froglok Kings.  Players would sit in his room and kill the adds and "farm" the king for drops and exp. 

Not being instanced meant that other players or groups would routinely arrive if they didn't as in zone chat if it was already camped.  In that case if they were cool they'd go elsewhere.  If not they could try to train the group out of the spot, or sit there and try to kill steal it.

EQ awarded loot to whomever did the most damage, not who hit it first.  Without instanced dungeons this was a constant issue.  Different groups fighting for spots to camp named mobs.

I miss wandering into a dungeon that may or may not be part of a quest and exploring it.

I miss finding those dungeons while explorings a world that is full of areas of interest, towers with chests at the top, keeps with monster with some chests, I miss random drop items that are RARE and cool as hell.

I miss gear that doesn't bind and isn't lvl specific.

But instances do have some reasons.  Those long lines at the bottom of a dungeon camping a chest.  Only to have some idiot come in a skip past the line and run away. 

But at the same time, that did tend to make the game FEEL aive.

Originally posted by skarwolf

Why instancing ?  Let me tell of you the days of old in Everquest.

Dungeons were not instanced.  People would set up "camps" in spots where a certain named mob dropped better then average loot.  For example, the dungeon lower guk.  The Froglok King dropped a mithril 2h sword & Crown of Froglok Kings.  Players would sit in his room and kill the adds and "farm" the king for drops and exp. 

Not being instanced meant that other players or groups would routinely arrive if they didn't as in zone chat if it was already camped.  In that case if they were cool they'd go elsewhere.  If not they could try to train the group out of the spot, or sit there and try to kill steal it.

EQ awarded loot to whomever did the most damage, not who hit it first.  Without instanced dungeons this was a constant issue.  Different groups fighting for spots to camp named mobs.

Simple solution to that.  Put account timers on looting certain mobs and/or dungeons.

Originally posted by SignusM

Because for some reason the casual WoW generation loves to pay 15 bucks a month for a semi single player game that doesn't even have a persistent world.  

MMORPGs are social games. There is nothing more that I hate than finding an awesome cave and trying to enter "You do not have the right quest!" Or going into a cavern that should be filled with adventurers fighting their way down, but instead... I'm alone. Bad and lazy programming right there. But thats basically all Blizzard is, insanely lazy. 

You're right, due to lazy programming and a "lack of a social aspect", almost nobody plays WOW or has fun with it.

...er, wait a sec, millions of players play it and have fun with it.

Yet another post claiming MMOs "should be this way", that fails to realize MMOs should be whatever way people have fun (and the WOW model is clearly one of those ways.)

I hated instancing when it first started creeping into the genre, but I've come to practically require it. EVE is a rare exception thanks only to its gigantic size.

For me, it's quite simple: instancing allows the game to better maintain the integrity and (yes, I'm going to say it) immersion of its world. I'm interested in MMOs for the massively multiplayer experience, yes, but I don't understand why some people seem to think it's not massively multiplayer if some glen in the middle of nowhere doesn't have a stream of players moving in and out of it such that it resembles a modern highway traffic jam.

Unless developers are willing to slave 4-8 years of their lives into hammering out a gigantic world like Vanguard's—which exactly no one seems to be and practically everyone considers 'too big' for some unfathomable reason—I'm instancing's bitch.

With the ever-increasing overabundance of MMO players swarming into games that can't possibly be big enough to spread them reasonably across one world, you need instancing, whether in the form of a multitude of 'shards' or fewer shards with more instances therein—the distinction is insubstantial.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by SignusM

Because for some reason the casual WoW generation loves to pay 15 bucks a month for a semi single player game that doesn't even have a persistent world.  

MMORPGs are social games. There is nothing more that I hate than finding an awesome cave and trying to enter "You do not have the right quest!" Or going into a cavern that should be filled with adventurers fighting their way down, but instead... I'm alone. Bad and lazy programming right there. But thats basically all Blizzard is, insanely lazy. 

 

You're right, due to lazy programming and a "lack of a social aspect", almost nobody plays WOW or has fun with it.

...er, wait a sec, millions of players play it and have fun with it.

Yet another post claiming MMOs "should be this way", that fails to realize MMOs should be whatever way people have fun (and the WOW model is clearly one of those ways.)

They don't know any better. They didn't play MMORPGs back when they could still be considered MMORPGs. They hare heavy casual people who's only experience is with WoW. Now that would be fine... if it hadn't affected the rest of us core MMORPG players. 
 

Without instances I would have the most exciting adventures in dungeons. It was all very dynamic. You could wander in without having the stupid quest for it and just explore. You could run into trouble, a random person could help you. You'd team up, you'd die, someone would wander by and rez you. The three of you would go deeper, finding more camps. Sometimes you'd run into other people, sometimes they had the camp you wanted. Know how you can solve that? WITH WORDS. "How long are you gonna be here?" "We're moving on" or "We're here for a while" "Ok cool, we'll find another camp." But instead, people would rather hide from social interaction in their own little bubbles. That's what singleplayer and coop games are for... 

It IS lazy programming. There are almost no benefits to instancing really that outweigh how much it takes away from the game. Perhaps if Blizzard innovated a new feature for once in their ENTIRE career they'd have come up with a creative solution isntead of ripping instances from another game and making them even worse. 

Vanguard had a very VERY clever way around instances... 

Originally posted by Swoogie

Originally posted by Lansid

Originally posted by Swoogie

I hate it, well that seems a bit extreme but I really dont like it. For those of you who played EQ back then, imagine if Karnor's Castle was instance. That would have been a terrible zone. Why dont we see non-instanced dungeons anymore? I understand that instancing has its uses for CERTAIN things. Like if your doing a quest and there is a timeline and what not, that makes sense. I mean look at  these games today. I hate going into a dungeon and only having my party there.

 

Now the flamers will say that instances help us from not having to camp spawns and instead we all get our of zone and the mob is already spawned for us!

bah to that. I think that is dungeons/castles whatever were made with "named" mobs all over that had decent respawn rates with not to many place holders, then it would work. 

 

please explain the popularity AMONG players for instancing. I know that devs love it because it uses up less bandwidth on thier servers or w/e

 

Thanks!

 

SWOOGIE MCDOOGIE 

Easy... to avoid things like this....

 

/shout TRAIN INC!!!! MOVE OR DIE!!!!

or

/shout lvl 45 Cleric LFG PST (and then waiting up to an hour in a player-made queue because of lack of viable areas to level.)

or

Camping special items that are highly contested for, and an uberguild decides to train you into oblivion so they can get your spot.

 

But yeah, mainly CAMPING... camping... and more camping... which may take away from the whole "realism" of everyone being in the same place... I thought it was equally unrealistic that the mobs magically "pop" back into existence.

Don't get me wrong... in the day classic EQ was fun in some aspects... but no... not the camping part... or the boat part either, hated that goddamned boat.

Did you even read  my post before you quoted me?
 

1) In ever game I have played  since EQ, the mobs are teathered. Therefore; training doesnt matter

2) I said if there are named mobs with decent spawn rates and only a few place holders, then it would work. Think about it 2 place holders with a 15 min respawn. The rare loot can vary like it normally does ( well lesser)

3) There is nothing wrong with waiting to get a group. Go solo or find another place. It is not that hard.  Its pretty whinny if you ask me. I mean its full get over it. <-- sounds harsh but its true

1) You can train people in WoW. It certainly isn't as easy as a necromancer standing next to you while while you fight. Sicking his pet on the ghoul lord and then feign deathing next you as the huge train arrives. Did you ever play WoW? Outdoor mobs are NOT tethered, just gotta tap them every once in a while. Training people as a paladin is good times and so unpaladin like. Other classes have a pretty easy time at it too. At least in WoW it doesn't matter much unless you're on a pvp server (good times). But, this is just an odd example of possibilities not practicality as people are very spread out in WoW even back in the early days. But if dungeons were not instanced, woooo, that would be good times and things would probably get tethered pretty quick.

2) Do you know how many mobs my paladin could tank at the same time in RoTLK heroic dungeons? Bawahaha. It is like the hayday of EQ chanter/wizard groups destroying entire zones in a single pull. WoW dungeons are not difficult enough. WoW dunegons also do not have tethered npcs. They just keep on following even if you don't hit them unlike the outdoor npcs. This issue of being able monopolize more than excepted is a rather common problem in MMOs. Not really sure what my point is here.

3) The problem is when every single place is full because the number of players at any particular level range vastly exceeds the amount of content available. There are solutions to this. Some involve instancing. Another category involves creating even more dungeons/content which has some rather nasty pitfalls.

While a better version of EQ would be successful, it will likely never be crazy successful like WoW and the other MMOish games. Most people do not seem to want it, but only time will tell. It is amazing what a little polish can do to the success of even bad things.

Originally posted by SignusM

They don't know any better. They didn't play MMORPGs back when they could still be considered MMORPGs. They hare heavy casual people who's only experience is with WoW. Now that would be fine... if it hadn't affected the rest of us core MMORPG players. 

It IS lazy programming. There are almost no benefits to instancing really that outweigh how much it takes away from the game. Perhaps if Blizzard innovated a new feature for once in their ENTIRE career they'd have come up with a creative solution isntead of ripping instances from another game and making them even worse.  

I know better.  I tried out a ton of early MMORPGs.  They weren't fun.  I tried to stick it out with a few of them (AC1 and DAOC) but inevitably they just weren't fun games.   WOW was fun.

It took MMORPGs which were boring simulations, and made it a full-fledged game.

Avoiding asshattery and superior content quality are reasons enough to want instancing.

It's like I always say, I play games to play games, not to sit and wait for a spawn or some equally nonsenical tedium a developer has placed in front of me (like having a train inflicted upon me.)  I won't stand for that sort of non-gameplay.

Originally posted by Murashu

Originally posted by DaX.9

Just wanted to copy paste this from some site offering runs of dungeons:
 

Average time of completing one Normal Dungeon Run is 2 hours. As for Heroic Dungeon Runs, it is much longer because there is a lockout time restriction in the game of 1 day per heroic instance dungeon, meaning we can only do the Heroic dungeon once every 24 hours.

And guys are pro runners, so I guess that you can not actually do anything good in 2 hours per day.

 

Hey Dax, which game are you referring to that takes 2 hours to complete on normal mode?

Sorry, forgott to say, World of warcraft. It is from site that offers WOW runs.

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by SignusM

Because for some reason the casual WoW generation loves to pay 15 bucks a month for a semi single player game that doesn't even have a persistent world.  

MMORPGs are social games. There is nothing more that I hate than finding an awesome cave and trying to enter "You do not have the right quest!" Or going into a cavern that should be filled with adventurers fighting their way down, but instead... I'm alone. Bad and lazy programming right there. But thats basically all Blizzard is, insanely lazy. 

 

You're right, due to lazy programming and a "lack of a social aspect", almost nobody plays WOW or has fun with it.

...er, wait a sec, millions of players play it and have fun with it.

Yet another post claiming MMOs "should be this way", that fails to realize MMOs should be whatever way people have fun (and the WOW model is clearly one of those ways.)

They don't know any better. They didn't play MMORPGs back when they could still be considered MMORPGs. They hare heavy casual people who's only experience is with WoW. Now that would be fine... if it hadn't affected the rest of us core MMORPG players. 

Personally, I don't think dictating to players how they should and should not have fun in a video game is a terribly sound business model.

I tend to think the individuals who are exclusively looking for that extreme hardcore experience (by this I mean you are committed to playing in at least 6 hour chunks, there is no "safe" place to play, etc) are roughly the same set of individuals that don't have careers or responsibilities such as wife & kids. Of course, there are exceptions, but I tend to consider this set of players to be largely students and the unemployed, or perhaps working part-time / "non career" jobs.

I remember old school MMOs, and to be perfectly honest in order to be competitive it pretty much became a full-time job. Which is fine, if you don't already have one. Remember all the lives that EQ ruined?

Ultimately, making a $30 million dollar product which is least attractive to your customers with the greatest disposable income isn't the path to getting a good return on the investment.

Instancing is a mechanic that can be used to good or evil. There is nothing wrong with instancing in general.. but when left in the wrong hands...

Originally posted by Murashu

Originally posted by bongo123

Since when is wanting to enjoy an evening exploring a dungeon with a close group of mates in a graphically rich environment with a compelling and scripted story that if played right results in everyone walking out with some loot and a good nights gaming considered "Carebear".. i mean seriously WTF!? is wrong with some of you people.. oh i played EQ back in the day and had to camp some boss with like 50 other dicks from 3am to 8am... im so hardcore... fuck off, games are meant to be fun,

NWN, BG, Diablo1&2 are all games that offer what you are describing here. I don't believe those games are carebear, they were all quite fun for a short time.

yeah fun for a short while is exacty it...

 

From your language, grammar and the general tone of your post you appear to have issues playing well with others. For someone like yourself, playing in an instanced world with the few friends that can tolerate you is probably better for everyone. Some of us who like to be a part of a community, feel that instancing works against that community feeling.

Piss off you ain't my English teacher, i am perfectly capable of playing with other people and have made many friends in the mmo's i have played in, don't go thinking you know me based on a Rant.. As for wanting to be part of a community, what are you, some sort of dancing through the flowers hippy stuck in a 70's mindset? MMO's in the 21st century are a whole different kettle of fish to the niche market it was when you were running around in EQ, you have everyone from dorks to jocks to screaming kids to wise grandparents playing em and like real life (you know that thing outside your window) sometimes i like to get away from them when playing and instancing gives people the perfect chance to do that while still maintaining this community aspect you still desire. Just cause you and a few guildies/mates/randoms feck off for a few hours to do a dungeon hardly disrupts the overall experience of community within the server, it just means you can go have a bit of fun without someone intolerable pissing you off cause has feck all better to do... man what a game breaker... instancing, it ruined my life.... jeeze

 

In the past, I used to dislike instancing, but after playing a game that is mainly instanced (and am still playing it in fact) I have come to realise that instancing is not such a bad concept after all. I'm a huge fan of games with a storyline, and I find that games with instancing actually makes me feel as if I'm part of the storyline instead of just watching everything play out, and I enjoy that feeling. However, there has to still be a sense of community, otherwise I might as well play a single player rpg, and that's where Guilds come in. I can still chat with my guild while I'm wandering around, and sometimes, we end up getting so carried away with our conversations that we literally forget what we're doing.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by SignusM

They don't know any better. They didn't play MMORPGs back when they could still be considered MMORPGs. They hare heavy casual people who's only experience is with WoW. Now that would be fine... if it hadn't affected the rest of us core MMORPG players. 

It IS lazy programming. There are almost no benefits to instancing really that outweigh how much it takes away from the game. Perhaps if Blizzard innovated a new feature for once in their ENTIRE career they'd have come up with a creative solution isntead of ripping instances from another game and making them even worse.  

 

I know better.  I tried out a ton of early MMORPGs.  They weren't fun.  I tried to stick it out with a few of them (AC1 and DAOC) but inevitably they just weren't fun games.   WOW was fun.

It took MMORPGs which were boring simulations, and made it a full-fledged game.

Avoiding asshattery and superior content quality are reasons enough to want instancing.

It's like I always say, I play games to play games, not to sit and wait for a spawn or some equally nonsenical tedium a developer has placed in front of me (like having a train inflicted upon me.)  I won't stand for that sort of non-gameplay.

That's fine for you. You aren't a core MMORPG player, because you only found solace with the wave of casual MMOs. You don't like seamless realistic worlds, you don't like the multiplayer aspect, that's fine. The only problem is when the abuse of instances spreads to real MMOs. 
 

And its not even the players really that love instancing. Well, not the new ones. The old ones usually vehemently hate any instancing.

But instances have become so widespread ,that in totally noninstanced games it is more common to call a dungeon an instance or (now this one is just freakin sad) a PUBLIC instance, instead of a dungeon.

Its just a very easy and lazy solution to something thats not even a really big problem, and most developers take this easy route out.