Lot of good points in this thread.

I just hope SE makes FFXIV an MMORPG, and not an online rpg like AoC, WAR, and Aion. Thats what this genre has degraded to is simple online RPG's.

Originally posted by dominia

Understood, I just hate the term "Themepark mmo" as to me it under values the time and effort put in by the devs. Every mmo has great people behind it with a deep understanding of the design process, what works and what doesn't, and what the gamers are asking for. Many devs have been playing mmo's since the MUD days, were part of a gank squad in UO and were a major raider in the early days of EQ. I don't doubt that many of them want a compelling world to live in like the old days but many times they get caught up in the moment of a great idea that doesn't pan out like they hoped.

Ahhh I don't think it's a harmful term in and of itself. There are MMOs that really are best described as a "theme park", because it just happens to be the way it's designed. I know the term has been given a negative connotation by many... so if someone says a game is a "theme park", it automatically "sucks".

I think that's a product of many people needing to feel like whatever MMO they've decided to play is "the best MMO out there" and everything else sucks. Fortunately, I don't think that way at all. To me it's all in the context the term is used in.

And believe me, I do not underappreciate the amount of work that goes into an MMO. I'm a huge fan of MMOs and often believe that enough people don't appreciate the time and effort that goes into them as much as they should. People seem to think that something like a new area, complete with geography, quests, NPCs, creatures and so on can be cranked out as fast as players can get through them, and that's simply not the case. If that were the case, they wouldn't take 3+ years to develop, considering how players can get through the game, to the level cap in a matter of months these days.

So, yeah... I don't get all bent out of shape over the use of "theme park"... Just depends on how it's used to me -shrug-

 

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by dominia

Understood, I just hate the term "Themepark mmo" as to me it under values the time and effort put in by the devs. Every mmo has great people behind it with a deep understanding of the design process, what works and what doesn't, and what the gamers are asking for. Many devs have been playing mmo's since the MUD days, were part of a gank squad in UO and were a major raider in the early days of EQ. I don't doubt that many of them want a compelling world to live in like the old days but many times they get caught up in the moment of a great idea that doesn't pan out like they hoped.

Ahhh I don't think it's a harmful term in and of itself. There are MMOs that really are best described as a "theme park", because it just happens to be the way it's designed. I know the term has been given a negative connotation by many... so if someone says a game is a "theme park", it automatically "sucks".

I think that's a product of many people needing to feel like whatever MMO they've decided to play is "the best MMO out there" and everything else sucks. Fortunately, I don't think that way at all. To me it's all in the context the term is used in.

And believe me, I do not underappreciate the amount of work that goes into an MMO. I'm a huge fan of MMOs and often believe that enough people don't appreciate the time and effort that goes into them as much as they should. People seem to think that something like a new area, complete with geography, quests, NPCs, creatures and so on can be cranked out as fast as players can get through them, and that's simply not the case. If that were the case, they wouldn't take 3+ years to develop, considering how players can get through the game, to the level cap in a matter of months these days.

So, yeah... I don't get all bent out of shape over the use of "theme park"... Just depends on how it's used to me -shrug-

 

 

Hehe no worries, honestly I should of clarified it wasn't really directed at you. It just ended up becoming a personal tangent to most posters on the site that powergrind though good content, don't read quests, don't get immerest in a storyline, don't socialize and don't make an attempt at creating their own fun along the way - then complain that there isn't enough to do in a game.

It was a pet pieve of mine and again I really didn't intend for it to interupt the flow of conversation, I know Mike you're critical of mmo's when you need to be but in a very fair manner. I've always enjoyed your posts in the past and I sincerly didn't mean for my post to offend you if it did. =)

Originally posted by dominia

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by dominia

Understood, I just hate the term "Themepark mmo" as to me it under values the time and effort put in by the devs. Every mmo has great people behind it with a deep understanding of the design process, what works and what doesn't, and what the gamers are asking for. Many devs have been playing mmo's since the MUD days, were part of a gank squad in UO and were a major raider in the early days of EQ. I don't doubt that many of them want a compelling world to live in like the old days but many times they get caught up in the moment of a great idea that doesn't pan out like they hoped.

Ahhh I don't think it's a harmful term in and of itself. There are MMOs that really are best described as a "theme park", because it just happens to be the way it's designed. I know the term has been given a negative connotation by many... so if someone says a game is a "theme park", it automatically "sucks".

I think that's a product of many people needing to feel like whatever MMO they've decided to play is "the best MMO out there" and everything else sucks. Fortunately, I don't think that way at all. To me it's all in the context the term is used in.

And believe me, I do not underappreciate the amount of work that goes into an MMO. I'm a huge fan of MMOs and often believe that enough people don't appreciate the time and effort that goes into them as much as they should. People seem to think that something like a new area, complete with geography, quests, NPCs, creatures and so on can be cranked out as fast as players can get through them, and that's simply not the case. If that were the case, they wouldn't take 3+ years to develop, considering how players can get through the game, to the level cap in a matter of months these days.

So, yeah... I don't get all bent out of shape over the use of "theme park"... Just depends on how it's used to me -shrug-

 

 

 

Hehe no worries, honestly I should of clarified it wasn't really directed at you. It just ended up becoming a personal tangent to most posters on the site that powergrind though good content, don't read quests, don't get immerest in a storyline, don't socialize and don't make an attempt at creating their own fun along the way - then complain that there isn't enough to do in a game.

Bingo. Spot on. In my opinion of course :). 

 

It was a pet pieve of mine and again I really didn't intend for it to interupt the flow of conversation, I know Mike you're critical of mmo's when you need to be but in a very fair manner. I've always enjoyed your posts in the past and I sincerly didn't mean for my post to offend you if it did. =)

 Ahh no offense taken at all. I was just responding to your post is all with my own thoughts on the whole "themepark" thing.

And thank you for the kind words.

There was something amazing about FFXi, just the taste of it I think. By all means it was the most painful forced group grind i've ever seen with a pay subscription, but damn if everything about it wasn't magical. Little nooks of every town had players bascially LARPing it (rolleyes), markets were crowded, crafting was mysterious (and equally painful to leveling), and I could fish all day on the boat to Selbina/Mhaura. To cut it short, I have full faith in SE to pull of fsome kind of magic here - even though I am sure I will hit a brick wall on some aspect of it.

My only hope is they eschew the hotbars from every game out there now and go with traditional FF menus like #11 even had.

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG

I could keep going all day

OMG OMG OMG... I've only just heard about XIV.. OMG OMG

The weapon/class system sounds amazing. OMG

:deep breath: Ok, well I played ffxi and loved it, it was the most magical mmo ever and imo the best game ever made (yeah it knocked elite off the top spot)

my hopes for this game are

1 Crafting / gathering have to be deep with hundreds of potential items

2 Team work is important, it added such a great feeling of togetherness in xi, I'd go to new areas and I'd know a few people there who would give advice and have a good old natter

3 Events, I loved the events in xi, seriously some of em were cheesey, like winning cakes that turn you into a little girl or getting fireworks but it all added to the fun of the game, it was always a pleasure to be online.

erm thats about it, I have 100% trust in SE, I know they wont let us down :D

OMG OMG OMG OMG

I was going to build a new computer ext week, now I'm waiting till XIV is near, that way I'll be able to have 2 SATA 3.0 SSD's running in raid0 OMG OMG OMG

FANTASTIC STUFF

I actually kinda want some coolaid now...

I love FFXI, but it was rather too group oriented.  I liked WoW, but it was too solo oriented.  I think a game with about 50/50 solo vs group would be perfect, and make it so at anytime you choose, you could solo or group :)  Sometimes I want a massive 40 man party to raid a dungeon (WoW did this way too much imho), other times I want to just be by myself.

P.S. I'm drinking Grape Kool Aid right now :D OOOOH YEAH!

I'll admit too that first time i heard that soloing will be a highlight in this game i was afraid. But I must confess that perhaps we are looking at this "solo" hype in the wrong light. Take for instance FFXI in that game it was hard to solo certian monsters like nms or even regular mobs without having others beating on it as well. For example if you went back into time to fight one of those outpost battles you tried to kill one of those things by yourself it was slightly difficult.

So here is what i think they mean by soloing. I think they are making it more realistic in terms of if you are one vs one with a monster youll have a better chance of killing it in this game that in it was in ffxi. Where as in ffxi you usually had a party killing one mob in most leveling parties..

Where am i going with this? More epic battles where people will be watching each others backs while taking on whatever is around them, take the videos for instance.. we keep seeing that ship deck with those jellyfish looking things and one person battle one and another battling one as well... more epic battles instead of.. oh.. lets all focus on one "takes forever to kill mob"

Needless to say im excited... not only is this game puting features i've wanted to see in an mmo again for a long time, but they seem to be setting it up for some pure epicness.

Originally posted by dominia

SE has a way, with nearly every product they put out, to become much more then what it is on the surface. When I began thinking back over the years to FFVII, FFVI, FFIV, FFIX, FFXII, FFT, FFTA, Xenogears, Bushio Blade, ect... I honestly have no reason to doubt them.

I must quote this for emphasis. To be honest I have no reason to doubt square enix. Every game they have ever done has been done well imo. They are always polished etc. I wont doubt that they will succeed with flying colors... ohhh man... i just cant wait for this game :3

Originally posted by dominia

The RTM situation is a difficult one. I recently heard Jeff Hickman at the Austin GDC speaking about how the economy for WAR was too RTM proof and because of it, destroyed the value of they're currency to the point where the whole system colapsed. I believe SE knew they had a problem early but didn't really know how to fix it in a way that would not compromise the integrity of their game. It's easy to point to reasons if your a fan, but what if you being wrong ment millions of dollars?

Well the thing about gold sellers is that the AH system made it easy for them to flourish and semi control the market. What they really need is a personal shop system. And it looks like they kinda are doing that. As you can be a blacksmith etc. But don't quote me on that.

The real thing that makes me excited is having the durability on items. This will help the games economy and make crafters very useful. In FFXI (depending on which server you were on) the AH ended up being flooded with many of the same item at times becuase they never broke, and just got resold. Making it kinda a moot point to havea crafter around after the game got a couple years under its belt.

Not to mention this will make player interdependency. A very good thing.

Just by couple of gil :p All my opinion of course.

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

Originally posted by dominia

The RTM situation is a difficult one. I recently heard Jeff Hickman at the Austin GDC speaking about how the economy for WAR was too RTM proof and because of it, destroyed the value of they're currency to the point where the whole system colapsed. I believe SE knew they had a problem early but didn't really know how to fix it in a way that would not compromise the integrity of their game. It's easy to point to reasons if your a fan, but what if you being wrong ment millions of dollars?

 

What they really need is a personal shop system.

Like a Bazarr? O.o

I think theirs drugs in my Coolaid cause i keep wanting more!

Originally posted by CDCosta

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

Originally posted by dominia

The RTM situation is a difficult one. I recently heard Jeff Hickman at the Austin GDC speaking about how the economy for WAR was too RTM proof and because of it, destroyed the value of they're currency to the point where the whole system colapsed. I believe SE knew they had a problem early but didn't really know how to fix it in a way that would not compromise the integrity of their game. It's easy to point to reasons if your a fan, but what if you being wrong ment millions of dollars?

 

What they really need is a personal shop system.

 

Like a Bazarr? O.o

 

I think theirs drugs in my Coolaid cause i keep wanting more!

Yes, but more in depth. Do away with the ah system and have player able to set up a very small tent or something. This allows more player interaction, so its good. People may say the AH is nice but in all reality they dont think of how easy it makes gold farmers thrive. Not to mention makes it where you dont interact with that player thats trying to sell ya something.

Ill even go one more step than that. In SWG i remember one time i went to a players shop and he was restocking his vendors, we had a nice long conversation about armor making etc etc etc, well.. after a time the conversation turned to materials he needed, and really all it was was a "man i wish i could find someone that had alot of this" and it so happened i knew what dropped that and i told him that i could be his supplier, so a relationship was formed, it was epic.

In that case player interaction > convienece of an AH. Would i ever have talked to him in an AH system based game? Well, the chances would have been a lot slimmer.

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

Originally posted by CDCosta

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

Originally posted by dominia

The RTM situation is a difficult one. I recently heard Jeff Hickman at the Austin GDC speaking about how the economy for WAR was too RTM proof and because of it, destroyed the value of they're currency to the point where the whole system colapsed. I believe SE knew they had a problem early but didn't really know how to fix it in a way that would not compromise the integrity of their game. It's easy to point to reasons if your a fan, but what if you being wrong ment millions of dollars?

 

What they really need is a personal shop system.

 

Like a Bazarr? O.o

 

I think theirs drugs in my Coolaid cause i keep wanting more!

 

Yes, but more in depth. Do away with the ah system and have player able to set up a very small tent or something. This allows more player interaction, so its good. People may say the AH is nice but in all reality they dont think of how easy it makes gold farmers thrive. Not to mention makes it where you dont interact with that player thats trying to sell ya something.

Ill even go one more step than that. In SWG i remember one time i went to a players shop and he was restocking his vendors, we had a nice long conversation about armor making etc etc etc, well.. after a time the conversation turned to materials he needed, and really all it was was a "man i wish i could find someone that had alot of this" and it so happened i knew what dropped that and i told him that i could be his supplier, so a relationship was formed, it was epic.

In that case player interaction > convienece of an AH. Would i ever have talked to him in an AH system based game? Well, the chances would have been a lot slimmer.

And that my friend is what a MMO is REALLY about.

Man I hope this game is as good as i'm hoping. :S

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

Originally posted by CDCosta

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

Originally posted by dominia

The RTM situation is a difficult one. I recently heard Jeff Hickman at the Austin GDC speaking about how the economy for WAR was too RTM proof and because of it, destroyed the value of they're currency to the point where the whole system colapsed. I believe SE knew they had a problem early but didn't really know how to fix it in a way that would not compromise the integrity of their game. It's easy to point to reasons if your a fan, but what if you being wrong ment millions of dollars?

 

What they really need is a personal shop system.

 

Like a Bazarr? O.o

 

I think theirs drugs in my Coolaid cause i keep wanting more!

 

Yes, but more in depth. Do away with the ah system and have player able to set up a very small tent or something. This allows more player interaction, so its good. People may say the AH is nice but in all reality they dont think of how easy it makes gold farmers thrive. Not to mention makes it where you dont interact with that player thats trying to sell ya something.

Ill even go one more step than that. In SWG i remember one time i went to a players shop and he was restocking his vendors, we had a nice long conversation about armor making etc etc etc, well.. after a time the conversation turned to materials he needed, and really all it was was a "man i wish i could find someone that had alot of this" and it so happened i knew what dropped that and i told him that i could be his supplier, so a relationship was formed, it was epic.

In that case player interaction > convienece of an AH. Would i ever have talked to him in an AH system based game? Well, the chances would have been a lot slimmer.

 

And that my friend is what a MMO is REALLY about.

Man I hope this game is as good as i'm hoping. :S

 

My guess is the bazaar system will be like FFXI's.

You could turn on your personal bazaar.  You would then set the price for individual items in your bag.  Anyone could then look at what you had for sale and buy if they wanted.

This did not often lead to character interaction.  More often people created 'mule' characters that they would send salable items to in the mail.  They would then set prices for the items in their mules bazaar and go AFK.  Heck, I did it.  Whenever I went to class, work, or slept my mule would be logged in with items for sale.

Originally posted by Rogue_Leader

 

My guess is the bazaar system will be like FFXI's.

You could turn on your personal bazaar.  You would then set the price for individual items in your bag.  Anyone could then look at what you had for sale and buy if they wanted.

This did not often lead to character interaction.  More often people created 'mule' characters that they would send salable items to in the mail.  They would then set prices for the items in their mules bazaar and go AFK.  Heck, I did it.  Whenever I went to class, work, or slept my mule would be logged in with items for sale.

Fair enough, but in all reality i stil lwould rather have it that way. It would make it alot harder for gold farmers to buy up items then sell them for higher prices with no one to counter. They would have to go to each person individually and really... they would have to do that manually, not bot it... so its a win win for us.

My point is that it COULD lead to player interaction.... in the case of this game it sounds like crafters are going to be a big part... so the player may have to be at the keyboard to craft something someone wants specifically, and just afk bazzarr mass produced items... or whatever...

just my couple gil.

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

Originally posted by Rogue_Leader

 

My guess is the bazaar system will be like FFXI's.

You could turn on your personal bazaar.  You would then set the price for individual items in your bag.  Anyone could then look at what you had for sale and buy if they wanted.

This did not often lead to character interaction.  More often people created 'mule' characters that they would send salable items to in the mail.  They would then set prices for the items in their mules bazaar and go AFK.  Heck, I did it.  Whenever I went to class, work, or slept my mule would be logged in with items for sale.

 

Fair enough, but in all reality i stil lwould rather have it that way. It would make it alot harder for gold farmers to buy up items then sell them for higher prices with no one to counter. They would have to go to each person individually and really... they would have to do that manually, not bot it... so its a win win for us.

My point is that it COULD lead to player interaction.... in the case of this game it sounds like crafters are going to be a big part... so the player may have to be at the keyboard to craft something someone wants specifically, and just afk bazzarr mass produced items... or whatever...

just my couple gil.

The question is, are players willing to manually run from shop to shop in order to find the one thing they need.

AH's are as convenient for players are they are gil farmers.

Edit: Personally I kinda like FFXI's system.  Limited AH access and the ability to setup a personal bazaar.  Perhaps expand the bazaar capabilities, let people own or rent tent space.

Originally posted by toddze

Lot of good points in this thread.

I just hope SE makes FFXIV an MMORPG, and not an online rpg like AoC, WAR, and Aion. Thats what this genre has degraded to is simple online RPG's.

 

This is such a concern I have for this game.

Having played AoC and WAR, I have seen exactly what I did *not* like about MMO's.

- 100% solo-oriented

- Poor class design/balance issues

- Non-existential content, cattle-herding level-based zone systems

- No community present at all.

My biggest fear with FFXIV is that they are going to neglect the thing that made FFXI so great; the community! I loved running into players at level 40 that I grouped with at 20, and seeing them again at 65. The partying system made FFXI somewhat painful at times (if you rolled a DRG, for example) but at the end of the day, it ensured that players actually played WITH each other, and not just alongside each other.

I'm excited about the weapon skill system being based on how you play, but I'm also nervous that it's ultimately going to devolve into everyone running around with a great sword and a staff as an alternate gear setup. Aka, mass damage -> mass damage -> mass damage -> equipment change to staff -> heal -> heal -> buff -> heal -> equipment change great sword. Hopefully you get the gist.

The thing that would worry me further is if cookie cutter combo's come forward, and parties devolve into "exp set ups" vs "casual setups". Example: Exp set-up = 5 people with greatswords and staves, all doing mass dps and then mass healing. Skill setup = people leveling up all different weapons, with your typical MMO party setup with the goal of capping out various weapon skills. Think back to FFXI and the skillup parties at later levels, and you've got it.

I suppose I'm a bit of a pessimist when it comes to the genre these days. I've seen too many cool ideas on paper translated poorly into the actual gameplay in the past few games. Examples?
- The PQ system in WAR. It was really exciting. At first. Then you realize how dead these get later in the game. A brilliant idea that allows unguilded players to get high-quality gear.

- The Siege system in AoC. Totally broken, laggy, and seemingly untested. Player cities having bonuses was stellar, yet it didn't work properly.

So while I am still sipping the Kool-Aid...I'm going to hold my tongue until I see/hear some feedback about this game before I get my hopes up again, solely to be disappointed.

Originally posted by Cymdai
So while I am still sipping the Kool-Aid...I'm going to hold my tongue until I see/hear some feedback about this game before I get my hopes up again, solely to be disappointed.

This is probably a good attitude to have in general.  We really don't know anything about how the game plays.  It's not close enough to done.  The only play time was on an alpha version, likely a dim reflection of what actual game-play will be like.