Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Hyanmen

There is no other way.  Every sandbox game has only exp/skill ups to achieve the objective. Only how you gain that exp is different. Your point still makes no sense.

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Then they are no sandbox games.

The point is, generaly speaking, character progression is not a game objective in sandbox game.

But character progression IS a game objective from design that's embedded into the RPG part of a sandbox game.

So they are not mutually exclusive in general terms.  Since the discussion are about sandbox MMORPG, hence character progression is a given, so sandbox game (in terms of MMORPG) = versatility in progressing character in a dynamix world where there are tools and systems for players to shape/impact the world around them.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Gdemami

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I asked you if you can progress in the game in some other way apart gaining exp.

You said that you can progress by gaining exp or skill ups only which are the same thing, meaning: No, you can't achieve the game objective any other way but gaining exp/skill ups.

There is no other way.  Every sandbox game has only exp/skill ups to achieve the objective. Only how you gain that exp is different. Your point still makes no sense.

For me the objective in a sandbox is not to reach max level but rather for the player to select a goal of there own and work toward it. For example in EVE the player may want to be a killer then again they may want to be a miner there is no level to be had there are some skills that you would logicaly need to be good at what you want to do in the same light depending on what you want to do you may need more or less skills. Take me for example I like grinding ore in safe space most of the time this was true for the fist year of play I actualy enjoyed it that requiered next to no skill and I prity well started out being able to do it. I did have to work to progress toward my goal (needed money and a few minor skills for ships and things) so the defining factor of my progress well the majority of it for hte 1st year was isk I needed more isk. Now after I got done doing that I wanted to kill people :) whole new set of skills I needed and luckly I didn't just sit idel while I was harvesting and so I needed mroe isk for new ships and new skills to use them not to mention a lot of schooling in how to not get owned lol.

What I am trying to get out is, that to me a Sandbox lets you choose the objective it might be somthing minor and mundane or it might be somthing epic, it might take long time to reach or you might just about have it out of the box, thats sandbox. Theampark is on the other side of the stick you have limited if no reall choice in what the objective is and your path is prity well set in stone in terms of what you need to do to reach the objective. Personaly I think of most games as being between the 2 extreams somewhere now the quest grinders are offten the closer examples of a Theampark style you may have options as to the path you take but the goal is typicaly always the same this isn't bad and really Theampark to me makes for the most intresting PvP battles in that most every one is the same and is balanced at least compared to Sandbox PvP though Sandbox PvP I find to be more fun just for that reason . . . you dont "know" the stats of your target nessisarly.

The most Sandbox-esk game I can think of would be EVE of course I haven't played a ton of Sandbox I have always loved the idea but never found a good fantasy based Sandbox . . . Darkfall would have been it save for 1 or 2 minor issues that killed it for me.

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Originally posted by Forcan
 
But character progression IS a game objective from design that's embedded into the RPG part of a sandbox game.
 
So they are not mutually exclusive in general terms.  Since the discussion are about sandbox MMORPG, hence character progression is a given, so sandbox game (in terms of MMORPG) = versatility in progressing character in a dynamix world where there are tools and systems for players to shape/impact the world around them.

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Yes, this is something I am aware of and it is a good point to raise.
Can sandbox game still be RPG game?

Let's look at history a bit.

Original PnP RPG games were not as much about character advancement as role playing via interactive environment provided by game master.

With computer era, computer games couldn't offer as much of role play as PnP games because of very limited options in their predefined world and story. Character progression aspect of the game was enforced to improve immersion with your avatar and storyline.

How does this affect internet age?

There seems 2 ways have developed how to make a RPG game:
To follow concept with stress on character progression used in computer games or use the player community to achieve the original PnP design where players express their role more with their actions rather than weapon they can swing.

Don't forget what RPG stands for: Role-Playing-Game.

Sandbox design is for sure mutual exclusive with RPG or character progression particulary.
As I said earlier, sandbox is about options and choice you have to achieve game objective. If the game objective is character progress, let's be it but you will have to remember that you need to make more ways how to progress to be a sandbox.

Originally posted by madeux

• a good pail, preferably red
• a good shovel.  (blue would be nice)
• perhaps a little rake
• a good supply of sand
• a tractor
• some cat poop

Now, this is GH  (Good Humor)

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

As I said earlier, sandbox is about options and choice you have to achieve game objective. If the game objective is character progress, let's be it but you will have to remember that you need to make more ways how to progress to be a sandbox.

Ah, but FFXIV is still a themepark. Sandbox needs more than that to be a sandbox.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Hyanmen

There is no other way.  Every sandbox game has only exp/skill ups to achieve the objective. Only how you gain that exp is different. Your point still makes no sense.

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Then they are no sandbox games.

The point is, generaly speaking, character progression is not a game objective in sandbox game.

Then we have no sandbox games.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Forcan
 
But character progression IS a game objective from design that's embedded into the RPG part of a sandbox game.
 
So they are not mutually exclusive in general terms.  Since the discussion are about sandbox MMORPG, hence character progression is a given, so sandbox game (in terms of MMORPG) = versatility in progressing character in a dynamix world where there are tools and systems for players to shape/impact the world around them.

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Yes, this is something I am aware of and it is a good point to raise.
Can sandbox game still be RPG game?

Let's look at history a bit.

Original PnP RPG games were not as much about character advancement as role playing via interactive environment provided by game master.

With computer era, computer games couldn't offer as much of role play as PnP games because of very limited options in their predefined world and story. Character progression aspect of the game was enforced to improve immersion with your avatar and storyline.

How does this affect internet age?

There seems 2 ways have developed how to make a RPG game:
To follow concept with stress on character progression used in computer games or use the player community to achieve the original PnP design where players express their role more with their actions rather than weapon they can swing.

Don't forget what RPG stands for: Role-Playing-Game.

Sandbox design is for sure mutual exclusive with RPG or character progression particulary.
As I said earlier, sandbox is about options and choice you have to achieve game objective. If the game objective is character progress, let's be it but you will have to remember that you need to make more ways how to progress to be a sandbox.

The problem here is that everyone is arguing about what THEY want a "Sandbox" to be, because there is no clear definition.

And this idea that pnp rpg games are not about character progression is laughable.  pnp games have the same weapons that you seek after, you still kill for xp, you still level and build your stats and skills.

Personally, the term "sandbox" needs to be thrown out.  It's too generic, and really means nothing.

Instead of saying, I want a sandbox game, why not describe what it is that you really want?  Right, because everyone is too lazy, physically and mentally, to really do that.  So you'll keep using a term that means something different for everyone, and keep talking around each other rather than bringing things down to specifics when talking about a game.

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Originally posted by madeux
 
The problem here is that everyone is arguing about what THEY want a "Sandbox" to be, because there is no clear definition.
And this idea that pnp rpg games are not about character progression is laughable.  pnp games have the same weapons that you seek after, you still kill for xp, you still level and build your stats and skills.
Personally, the term "sandbox" needs to be thrown out.  It's too generic, and really means nothing.
Instead of saying, I want a sandbox game, why not describe what it is that you really want?  Right, because everyone is too lazy, physically and mentally, to really do that.  So you'll keep using a term that means something different for everyone, and keep talking around each other rather than bringing things down to specifics when talking about a game.

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I think offered quite constructive and solid definition for sandbox term which I believe is pretty much the same as 'everyone' think about sandbox just a bit more sophisticated than 'do whatever you want'.

The definition can be improved, worked on and argued.

Why don't you just try that and explain why don't you agree with that?

I didn't say that PnP games are not about character progression, I said they are more abotu interactive content. You disagree with that?

Sandbox term is not generic, people just use it for wheter they feel like without thinking and that goes along with your other point I agree on.
People overuse the term.

For me the objective in a sandbox is not to reach max level but rather for the player to select a goal of there own and work toward it.

You clearly understand exactly what a sandbox game is! Hurrah!

I've played practically all the mmorpg's out there and by far the best attempt at sandbox was UO. For me the sandbox part is me turning on the game just for the sake of playing, not feeling obliged to achieve anything.

There are days on UO when I would log on and tinker around my house, spend all night shopping in player shops, making cakes... a few friends and I even went on a pub crawl, visiting all the pubs in each of the towns... No objectives, no aims, no levels, just pure fun and the most fun I've ever had in a game and the fun was provided by the community, our ability to create our own adventures and objectives.

Were any part of UO level based (IMO) it would've caused people to rush to the ''endgame'' as you see in all the recent games out there and miss the point of the game...ie Having fun and socialising, playing the game for the sake of it instead of ''beating'' it or ''winning''

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Forcan
 
But character progression IS a game objective from design that's embedded into the RPG part of a sandbox game.
 
So they are not mutually exclusive in general terms.  Since the discussion are about sandbox MMORPG, hence character progression is a given, so sandbox game (in terms of MMORPG) = versatility in progressing character in a dynamix world where there are tools and systems for players to shape/impact the world around them.

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Yes, this is something I am aware of and it is a good point to raise.
Can sandbox game still be RPG game?

Let's look at history a bit.

Original PnP RPG games were not as much about character advancement as role playing via interactive environment provided by game master.

True, character advancement is a by-product from the storyline/adventure of the gamers and game masters  But even so, it becomes a part of the game design (it may not be the "goal", but it is embedded in the design).

With computer era, computer games couldn't offer as much of role play as PnP games because of very limited options in their predefined world and story. Character progression aspect of the game was enforced to improve immersion with your avatar and storyline.

Following the same thought as above, as you mentioned, due to limited options from the predefined world and story, character progression aspect is now the more viable way to use as immersion tool.  Which means it is now a part of the computer RPG goal.

How does this affect internet age?

There seems 2 ways have developed how to make a RPG game:
To follow concept with stress on character progression used in computer games or use the player community to achieve the original PnP design where players express their role more with their actions rather than weapon they can swing.

Again, both exist in PnP design, while due to the nature of Computer game that some aspect of PnP cannot be reproduced om computer RPG games.

Don't forget what RPG stands for: Role-Playing-Game.

Sandbox design is for sure mutual exclusive with RPG or character progression particulary.
As I said earlier, sandbox is about options and choice you have to achieve game objective. If the game objective is character progress, let's be it but you will have to remember that you need to make more ways how to progress to be a sandbox.

If they co-exist in PnP PRG games, it does mean that they are NOT mutual exclusive.  To progress a character, the method used in a logical one (reflecting how a person progress in life through experience, the design uses experience points).  That means in order to progress, you need to have experience in what you do.  So with a wide variety of options to progress, the method is still the same as it is in real world.

It doesn't mean that the progress HAS to contain multiple methods to progress, but the progression itself contains a wide variety of options will be enough to diversify the players and create interactions that is similar to the PnP design.

So the idea is simple:

Combat = using weapon/skills to progress

Craft = using tools/skills to progress

Diplomacy = using skill to progress

 

Eeven though they are all linked to the same system (experience points), but due to the options exist for them(different weapons/tools/skills), they can be much more free than the present design of main focus of combat with side of craft.

 

As for game objectives.  Many would think that in a sandbox system the players are not forced in completing the predefined game objectives (may it be progressin through the storyline or something else).  Some believe that sandbox system should not have any predefiend game objectives and leave that to the players.

With these ideas and based on your definition, would you consider these games non-sandbox due to the system are not designed to achieve game objectives, but rather, it is the options in CREATING objectives?

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by madeux
 
The problem here is that everyone is arguing about what THEY want a "Sandbox" to be, because there is no clear definition.
And this idea that pnp rpg games are not about character progression is laughable.  pnp games have the same weapons that you seek after, you still kill for xp, you still level and build your stats and skills.
Personally, the term "sandbox" needs to be thrown out.  It's too generic, and really means nothing.
Instead of saying, I want a sandbox game, why not describe what it is that you really want?  Right, because everyone is too lazy, physically and mentally, to really do that.  So you'll keep using a term that means something different for everyone, and keep talking around each other rather than bringing things down to specifics when talking about a game.

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I think offered quite constructive and solid definition for sandbox term which I believe is pretty much the same as 'everyone' think about sandbox just a bit more sophisticated than 'do whatever you want'.

The definition can be improved, worked on and argued.

Why don't you just try that and explain why don't you agree with that?

I didn't say that PnP games are not about character progression, I said they are more abotu interactive content. You disagree with that?

Sandbox term is not generic, people just use it for wheter they feel like without thinking and that goes along with your other point I agree on.
People overuse the term.

 

For you, when you play a pnp rpg game (assuming you do), it is about interactive content.  For many others, it's about leveling, it's about progression, about creating a powerful character.  I've actually played with very few people who were there simply for the role playing... they add a lot to the game, but they're a rarity.  This person is usually your DM.  And a good DM will let you level, and progress, while forcing you to interact to do so.

I hate to disagree with you ( lol, thats soooo not true) but Sandbox really is now, regardless of what it may have been, a generic term.  It's definition is full of generalities.  When someone says they want a sandbox game, what they are saying is, they want more freedom.

Sandbox=freedom

Not total, absolute, undeniable freedom. Just freedom. It doesn't mean you can't have levels or experience.  It doesn't mean there can't be a storyline going on around you.  It just means you have a little more freedom when deciding what it is you're going to do about it.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Hyanmen
Fighting, gathering resources or crafting.

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Those thing won't give you exp?

Sure they do...
Killing creatures will give you xp.
Completing some quests will give you xp.
Fighting will increase your fighting skills.
Gathering resources and crafting increase your skills in those areas.

Those all develop your character in some way and are all different means of progress. 

That said, since you discount FFXIV because it isn't out... then fine... We can use FFXI, which has been out for 7+ years now.. You can achieve a variety of things in FFXI in more than one way. Still, few would call it a sandbox.

Originally posted by WSIMike

That said, since you discount FFXIV because it isn't out... then fine... We can use FFXI, which has been out for 7+ years now.. You can achieve a variety of things in FFXI in more than one way. Still, few would call it a sandbox.

 

Nnnnaahh, I wouldn't say XI has many means to progress your characters in the end. Kill mobs, get exp.

XIV is a different case altogether though. Crafting or Mining can take you to the end of the game? Sounds sandboxish, but more is needed to make the game a true sandbox. But it's alright, I prefer a mix of the two anyway. 

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by WSIMike

That said, since you discount FFXIV because it isn't out... then fine... We can use FFXI, which has been out for 7+ years now.. You can achieve a variety of things in FFXI in more than one way. Still, few would call it a sandbox.

 

Nnnnaahh, I wouldn't say XI has many means to progress your characters in the end. Kill mobs, get exp.

XIV is a different case altogether though. Crafting or Mining can take you to the end of the game? Sounds sandboxish, but more is needed to make the game a true sandbox. But it's alright, I prefer a mix of the two anyway. 

You're restricting progress to merely gaining xp levels. That's not the only form of progress there is in FFXI.... though I recognize that for some, that's the only kind of progress that matters.

You can craft... crafting increases your skill, allowing you to make better, more complex items.
You can harvest... harvesting increases your skill in that, allowing you to harvest better and more rare materials.
and so on...

Those are all forms of progress as well - they all develop and improve your character in some way. Character Progress isn't exclusive to "what gets you to end game"... It might be for some people. It isn't for everyone.

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Originally posted by Forcan
 
As for game objectives.  Many would think that in a sandbox system the players are not forced in completing the predefined game objectives (may it be progressin through the storyline or something else).  Some believe that sandbox system should not have any predefiend game objectives and leave that to the players.
With these ideas and based on your definition, would you consider these games non-sandbox due to the system are not designed to achieve game objectives, but rather, it is the options in CREATING objectives? 

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I won't comment on the rest because you basicaly say the same as I do.
Just 2 thing to clarify:

1)
'Sandbox design is for sure mutual exclusive with RPG or character progression particulary. '
Was a typo on my side and they surely are not mutualy exclusive, I am very sorry about that.
I have some issues with viewing this pages and I couldn't make a correction earlier, once again, very sorry.

2)
A way is not the same as method.

Now to your last paragraph:

I would try to answer this question with an example of how EVE is designed:

On the contrary to what many people think, EVE is indeed clearly designed and there is only one objective - to blow up things.

Everything you do in the game is aimed towards this goal.
- you can be a careless miner in high sec space never talking to anyone but the minerals you sell on market are used to build ships that are used to blow up other ships.
- you can be a lone wolf and exploring universe actively avoiding any engagement but what you find out there is used to invent things that are used to build stuf used to blow up other ships
- you can run missions only whole your EVE life but salvage you drop on market is used to build equippment used to blow up other ships

That is the game design of EVE.

There is a clear distinction between game design objective and player personal objectives.
Personal objectives can't be made or created without being intention of game designers.

Sandbox is a game design.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Skills and Levels are merely different ways of organizing how the player's power is gained and distributed.  They affect very little beyond that.

In theory.

In practice though, most skill-based games let you rework your template, or design an original one (which may or may not be effective, but at least you can experiment).  Most level-based games lock you onto a path:  choose a spellcaster early on and you'll never be able to wield a sword or wear heavy armor because you can't spec out of it later. 

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Originally posted by WSIMike

Sure they do...
Killing creatures will give you xp.
Completing some quests will give you xp.
Fighting will increase your fighting skills.
Gathering resources and crafting increase your skills in those areas.

Those all develop your character in some way and are all different means of progress. 
That said, since you discount FFXIV because it isn't out... then fine... We can use FFXI, which has been out for 7+ years now.. You can achieve a variety of things in FFXI in more than one way. Still, few would call it a sandbox.
 

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No, there is still only 1 way, 1 mechanics. What is different is the method only.

Originally posted by WSIMike

You're restricting progress to merely gaining xp levels. That's not the only form of progress there is in FFXI.... though I recognize that for some, that's the only kind of progress that matters.

You can craft... crafting increases your skill, allowing you to make better, more complex items.
You can harvest... harvesting increases your skill in that, allowing you to harvest better and more rare materials.
and so on...

Those are all forms of progress as well - they all develop and improve your character in some way. Character Progress isn't exclusive to "what gets you to end game"... It might be for some people. It isn't for everyone.

 

It's the only way to get to the objective of the game.. which was that guy's argument in the first place. Of course there are things like missions crafting and H.E.L.M in XI that you can do, but those are merely minigames. You can't get to the max level (which is the main objective) without killing mobs. It's as themepark as it gets.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Vanpry

www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3365/page/1

Read this link for the heart of what a sandbox game is.

 

Alright article.

But dead wrong on Skills vs. Levels.

The root is "How much does advancement matter?"  In skill-based games, skills often don't matter much.  Maybe 100 is the max, but you can kill any mob in the game with 50 sword skill.

Nothing stops a level-based game from being designed the exact same way (with 100 being max level, but you can kill anything at level 50.)

For that matter, you could have a skills-based game where a mob with 100 Armor skill can't be killed unless you have at least 98 Sword Skill.

Skills and Levels are merely different ways of organizing how the player's power is gained and distributed.  They affect very little beyond that.

I think you are taking the statements to literally, but yes you could have individual skill levels.  Ryzom uses xp and skill levels effectively. 

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Originally posted by madeux
For you, when you play a pnp rpg game (assuming you do), it is about interactive content.  For many others, it's about leveling, it's about progression, about creating a powerful character.  I've actually played with very few people who were there simply for the role playing... they add a lot to the game, but they're a rarity.  This person is usually your DM.  And a good DM will let you level, and progress, while forcing you to interact to do so.
I hate to disagree with you ( lol, thats soooo not true) but Sandbox really is now, regardless of what it may have been, a generic term.  It's definition is full of generalities.  When someone says they want a sandbox game, what they are saying is, they want more freedom.
Sandbox=freedom
Not total, absolute, undeniable freedom. Just freedom. It doesn't mean you can't have levels or experience.  It doesn't mean there can't be a storyline going on around you.  It just means you have a little more freedom when deciding what it is you're going to do about it. 

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Being about does not neccessary mean = I like...

While PnP game can be based solely on interactive content provided by narrator, stand alone PC game can't.
That's what PnP game is about.

Funny that it is especially you complaining about unclear definitions, vague and misuse of terms in unconstructive discussion.