Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Xennith

so being immune to wardecs isnt so great, because you can still be suicide ganked? wow, id never thought of that. you poor man in your unsafe highsec npc corp, it must be terrible.

wardeccing a target is not "risk free" for the deccing party, they run the same risks that the target corp does, they can have stuff blown up too.

 

Yeah, I lost about 100M in Datacores once flying them in a cheap cruiser that someone through was worth killing a 25M ship for.  (Now I pick them up in heavily tanked BS's and BCer's)

As for wardecers risk, nonsense, for the most part they fit out PVP ships while their targets are normally fit in PVE ships.

I was in a large, carebear empire corp, and we'd get wardec'd all the time and the minute we'd come out in force, (up to 75 ships) even the baddest of the Merc corps would suddenly hop in station and play station camping games. (understandable of course, EVE's about winning, not honor)

But they certainly didn't risk much of anything.

 

 

If people in a wardecced corp are flying PvE-fitted ships, they deserve to lose them. That's a pretty realistic outcome for someone making a choice that bad.

As for you guys facing down the mercs.... well done, but yeah exactly. People can do that instead of complaining that they did something as insanely thick as go mining while war-dec'd and consequently lost their ship. What's the problem here? I'm just not seeing it.

Likewise with the suicide ganking; it's extremely easy to make sure you never get ganked. You did get ganked, you worked out what you did wrong, you now do it right. Therefore you have a comparitive advantage over people too lazy or foolhardy to apply the proper methods. Remove ganking, and you lose that hard-earned, well-deserved advantage. You're reduced to the same level as some AFKing idiot.

Keep in mind, I never stated that suicide ganking should be removed, and while I agree the wardec mechanic could use some changes (great ideas in here btw) I don't suggest it be completely removed even if the changes don't happen.

People fly PVE fitted ships because they need to earn ISK.  Many new players rely on their PVE activites to fund the ships they would lose in a wardec.  (heck, I have to do this).  My PVP/PVE ratio has to be along the 50/50 ratio or I'll be bled dry.  I know some players use Plexes to fund their war efforts, but not everyone has that luxury.

Trouble with facing down the mercs is it is not profitable in the long run.  In one war alone we were decced for 6 weeks, lost 12B ISK worth of ships to the enemies 3B, had a good 35% of the membership leave, recruiting came a halt and eventually we paid 2B to the mercs to stop the war.

Only to have 3 more merc corps dec us because they heard we gave a good fight. Eventually we broke the corp into like 5 or 6 and shuttled our industrial minded players away from any war decs.. Strategy worked, but it was lame as I mentioned before.

But all of this is really off topic, I would support a plan to tax NPC corps in order to encourage players to leave them and join in the greater game, but I don't think there needs to be too much more in that regard.

You miss out on a lot of the game if you always stay in an NPC so don't assume its such a pleasant free ride for those folks.

I'll be the first to admit, I have not pvped in eve, at least not intentionally, but I have spent countless hours pvping in ffa pvp mmo's.   While I'm not saying one is equal to the other, there are universal truths.  I totally agree, player skill is the most important factor, and yes, it is my mindset that keeps me from pvping in eve at this point.  There's just more to it than that-  to me, pvp without reason is pointless, if it wasnt i'd play some game with battlegrounds and call it a day.  The greatest, most rewarding fights to be had are those you shouldn't technically win, but do thanks to better strategy and skill.  Theres also the other end of the spectrum-  fights that were lost before you ever engaged. 

Theres a balance between the two in eve just like every other game ever made, and my character simply hasn't reached that point regardless of how good or bad I am as a player.  As far as I can tell, if I want to become effective and self relaint and not be some big corps little goon to toss around, what I'm doing now is my only way forward.

this is kinda a derailment of thread, but my point in all this was simply that people sometimes have a reason for being in these npc corps, and whats done to the system to stop people taking advantage of it effects new players just as much or more.  In some ways increasing tax is even counter-productive, as 11% more tax is 11% more time it will take to achieve what goals and get out.

The 11% percent tax is not going to cause any real problems for Jerek_. Its actually about a 3% tax if that since it only effects bounties. It just encourages you to get out into a player corp, Not all corps will make you into a peon or grunt.

Though the sad reality is there is a isk boundry for pvp. And rampant Empire Pirate wardecs do as Kyleran said put either a Stop or a Pause on a group breaking that boundry for little or no chance.  If I decided to turn my corp into an Empire wardec corp we would be able to merily slaughter our way through corps with little regard to ship loss. Because we either have the money to back it up or we just have the ships floating around as replacements.

Until the wardec system gets a overhaul with defined objectives, the fact remains that NPC corps need to keep thier immunity.

if you need one more skill point or 1 more isk for that perfect ship before you try pvping, you will never pvp. there will always ALWAYS be one more skill to get to level 5, more isk to have in the wallet to make the loss easier.

if you are unwilling to get into a rifter, tech 1 fit it and go suicide it into lowsec looking for a fight NOW, you will never be willing to do it, so you should probably accept that training for pvp is pointless. if you want a reason to pvp (and thats not a bad thing), then building a reputation as a capable fighter or a fearless player is very much to your advantage and the only way that will happen is via pew pew.

for those interested, Red verses Blue is starting up again soon...

Originally posted by Jerek_

I'll be the first to admit, I have not pvped in eve, at least not intentionally, but I have spent countless hours pvping in ffa pvp mmo's.   While I'm not saying one is equal to the other, there are universal truths.  I totally agree, player skill is the most important factor, and yes, it is my mindset that keeps me from pvping in eve at this point.  There's just more to it than that-  to me, pvp without reason is pointless, if it wasnt i'd play some game with battlegrounds and call it a day.  The greatest, most rewarding fights to be had are those you shouldn't technically win, but do thanks to better strategy and skill.  Theres also the other end of the spectrum-  fights that were lost before you ever engaged. 

Theres a balance between the two in eve just like every other game ever made, and my character simply hasn't reached that point regardless of how good or bad I am as a player.  As far as I can tell, if I want to become effective and self relaint and not be some big corps little goon to toss around, what I'm doing now is my only way forward.

this is kinda a derailment of thread, but my point in all this was simply that people sometimes have a reason for being in these npc corps, and whats done to the system to stop people taking advantage of it effects new players just as much or more.  In some ways increasing tax is even counter-productive, as 11% more tax is 11% more time it will take to achieve what goals and get out.

Having tens of millions of SP or billions of ISK worth of ships wont stop you getting fucked about by bad corps. Real in game experience will.

Seriously, when it comes to the good corps, few types of players get as little respect as the "I stayed in hi sec for 2 years until I was "ready" for PvP". A worthwhile 0.0 corp will always, always choose a 6M SP player who has been in lo-sec/0.0 since he was 2 weeks old and can point to a string of real fights rather than a 46MP SP player who has done nothing but grind missions and then arrive in 0.0 assuming that his faction-fit command ship will pwn everything.

Really, all you're doing is making your learning experiences more expensive. Oh yeah and wasting your time. If you truly do want to PvP in EvE, the very best thing you can do towards that goal is go PvP.

I note that Red Versus Blue has just restarted. Go join Red. Or Blue. No-one will give a shit how many SP you have or what ship you're in. All they'll care about is that you're ready to fight. The experience you'll gain in a week of easily accessible empire PvP will be worth a year's skillpoints.

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Originally posted by Jerek_
I'll be the first to admit, I have not pvped in eve, at least not intentionally, but I have spent countless hours pvping in ffa pvp mmo's.   While I'm not saying one is equal to the other, there are universal truths.  I totally agree, player skill is the most important factor, and yes, it is my mindset that keeps me from pvping in eve at this point.  There's just more to it than that-  to me, pvp without reason is pointless, if it wasnt i'd play some game with battlegrounds and call it a day.  The greatest, most rewarding fights to be had are those you shouldn't technically win, but do thanks to better strategy and skill.  Theres also the other end of the spectrum-  fights that were lost before you ever engaged. 
Theres a balance between the two in eve just like every other game ever made, and my character simply hasn't reached that point regardless of how good or bad I am as a player.  As far as I can tell, if I want to become effective and self relaint and not be some big corps little goon to toss around, what I'm doing now is my only way forward.

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Honestly, you are only looking for excuses why not to PVP. Your previous post was how you want to PVP but you are not ready, this one is no different.

Look for a corp involved in Factional Warfare or join the warfare yourself if you have enough standings.

Tonight is as good as any other night that will come.

Good luck.

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Jerek_

I'll be the first to admit, I have not pvped in eve, at least not intentionally, but I have spent countless hours pvping in ffa pvp mmo's.   While I'm not saying one is equal to the other, there are universal truths.  I totally agree, player skill is the most important factor, and yes, it is my mindset that keeps me from pvping in eve at this point.  There's just more to it than that-  to me, pvp without reason is pointless, if it wasnt i'd play some game with battlegrounds and call it a day.  The greatest, most rewarding fights to be had are those you shouldn't technically win, but do thanks to better strategy and skill.  Theres also the other end of the spectrum-  fights that were lost before you ever engaged. 

Theres a balance between the two in eve just like every other game ever made, and my character simply hasn't reached that point regardless of how good or bad I am as a player.  As far as I can tell, if I want to become effective and self relaint and not be some big corps little goon to toss around, what I'm doing now is my only way forward.

this is kinda a derailment of thread, but my point in all this was simply that people sometimes have a reason for being in these npc corps, and whats done to the system to stop people taking advantage of it effects new players just as much or more.  In some ways increasing tax is even counter-productive, as 11% more tax is 11% more time it will take to achieve what goals and get out.

 

Having tens of millions of SP or billions of ISK worth of ships wont stop you getting fucked about by bad corps. Real in game experience will.

Seriously, when it comes to the good corps, few types of players get as little respect as the "I stayed in hi sec for 2 years until I was "ready" for PvP". A worthwhile 0.0 corp will always, always choose a 6M SP player who has been in lo-sec/0.0 since he was 2 weeks old and can point to a string of real fights rather than a 46MP SP player who has done nothing but grind missions and then arrive in 0.0 assuming that his faction-fit command ship will pwn everything.

Really, all you're doing is making your learning experiences more expensive. Oh yeah and wasting your time. If you truly do want to PvP in EvE, the very best thing you can do towards that goal is go PvP.

I note that Red Versus Blue has just restarted. Go join Red. Or Blue. No-one will give a shit how many SP you have or what ship you're in. All they'll care about is that you're ready to fight. The experience you'll gain in a week of easily accessible empire PvP will be worth a year's skillpoints.

 

It's pretty cool the way this tread came to this post! Perfect solution to what we have been talking about. More people learning real PVP skills in empire is exactly what the game needs.

Originally posted by Eanok

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by comerb

... all the people who want NPC corps to be wardec(able) just want easy targets.

I want everyone to have some kind of risk in their game play.

Be careful with what you wish Metal.

Empire is full of casual players that may leave the game if it becomes too unforgiving. It may sound great to get rid of all these empire dwellers and have a game without safe heavens, but these peace loving empire pilots and alts help pay the game we all play.

I don't think CCP will push them too far. With the majority of the population living in high sec, alienating a large part of their player base is the last thing CCP will do, and I can understand why.

I have nothing against Empire mission runners or any other type of player in empire space. I only have a problem with No risk NPC corps.

I seek balance, honestly. Imo every mechanic in this game should hold sometype of risk. I would hate to force my mission runner buddies out of the game. But right now the ones that stay in NPC corps make too muck isk with near no risk.

Originally posted by Malcanis

New players should join corps and learn how the hell the game works before creating a corp and proclaiming that they're willing and able to take responsibility for the safety and well-being of its members. There is no excuse for not doing this with organisations like EvE University in the game. The only "problem" with wardecs is that creating a corp is too easy and too cheap. If it took at least 1 skill to level 5 and cost 100M ISK, then new players wouldn't be fooled into thinking that creating a corp is something a new player should do.

If you create a corp you're effectively raising a flag and proclaiming that you're ready to compete with the big boys. Dont complain if some of the big boys take you at your word.

The people complaining about wardecs are people who are suffering from the misconception that anyone anywhere in EvE deserves any safety without securing it themselves. All that is different from 0.0 in hi-sec are the rules of engagement.

I've read some of your posts here and you seem to have some brains so I'll give you something to look.

Try thinking "bottom up" instead of "Top down".  The "under 1m sp" crowd of players.  3,867 players in the rookie channel earlier today.  I seriously doubt that most of them were vets rolling up another alt.  How many will stay?  Good question.

8th day of play here. Would I join a player corp right now? No. Would I stay in the game if they took away the protections I get while learning? No. I'd quit but if I do have those protections, when I do get more comfortable with the game.. I'll probably be out there but *NOT YET*.

I'm a veteran MMO player so I've seen about every dirty trick and scumbag stunt you can imagine in various games.  The way I phrased it to some folks in EVE about the subject -- Think of yourself as a child released into a park full of pedophiles. If they offer anything or ask for anything, don't be overly surprised at what you actually get from the encounter.

*THAT* pretty much sums up the degree of paranoia I try and pass on to new players and "joining a player corp" is as high risk as going to 0.0 sec if you don't take the time to learn about them *BEFORE* joining.  So joining a new corp? Forget it. There won't be info on them available for you to find out if they are going to shaft you until they've been around a while and most of your more senior "respectable" corps will have SP limits to join them.

A corp recruiter and their "friend" invited a few of us from the rookie channel into a chat session to pitch our joining their new corp.  I knew enough to right click their picture and check the info the game shows.  After I commented on their 3 day old corp, with 9 members and 20% corporate tax rate, he offered to give us each 500 mill just for coming out to their station and joining.  What 3 day old corporation is going to have billions of ISK around to give to new recruits *AND* a station already up and running???  That's when I tossed out the pedophile statement into the channel and yeah, everyone got a snicker and nobody went to visit their station...

You recommend joining a corp "NOW" to "learn" about the game?  thanks but no thanks.  I'll stick in the relative safety of the NPC corps until I've figure out a bit more about how the hell to avoid dirty tricks. -- you know the "which end your hat should go on" basics vs just jumping in and finding out I landed in the shark tank vs swimming pool.

I can't argue that Eleazaros, That said you should be looking at corps that do similiar things to what you are looking forward to. If anything you may be able to talk to them and get some experience with how they operate before you put any risk in joining them. Always be weary of the corp that offers a lot to new players... Thats either a corp trying to rip you off, or a corp begging to get robbed blind.

Park full of pedophiles.... that's awesome man. I hope you dont mind if I use that?

Yeah anyway, point taken, EvE is tough and difficult for new players and all that... but the tax will hardly hit new players at all. You pretty much have to be doing level 3 missions or higher for the tax to be noticeable. By which point the training wheels should be ready to come off.

And even if they're not, like I said: EvE Uni. Agony Unleashed.

new players arent even going to notice an 11% taxrate, the only people who are going to notice and care will be the year old toons playing with officer fittings and trying to maximise their isk/hour so they can buy new shiny toys.

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Originally posted by Wrender
Perhaps make it that an NPC corp can only be wardeced by only another NPC corp?

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that is called faction warfare.

from here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=700

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i bring gifts! (by gifts i mean taxes, sorry)
reported by CCP Soundwave | 2009.09.21 21:43:06 | NEW | Comments

Taxes, after all, are dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

As some of you have noticed, NPC corporations on Singularity are now being taxed at 11%. This corporation tax functions in the exact same way you know them from player corporations; a certain part of your hard earned income disappears and you probably never see it again. Now that I think about it, it functions a lot like taxes in real life do... oh well. The tax applies to mission rewards, bounties and the likes, so if you're worried that your corporation will suddenly take a large chunk out of your wallet, don't be; that is not how it works. If you are in Faction Warfare, you do not need to worry either, the militias will not be taxed. Service guarantees citizenship and all that, so keep on trucking.

So why this change?

* It seems like an unrealistic scenario that the empires in EVE provide infrastructure, security and a host of other financially demanding services at no cost. I sometimes read people complaining about how EVEs physics are unrealistic, but on the realism scale, that still pales compared to a government that refuses to tax its citizens.
* NPC corporations are meant to be temporary spaces where people can go about their daily activities while searching for a player corporation. Currently the level of comfort they provide, both in terms of war declaration immunity and 0% tax, give them an inherent advantage over player corporations which was never intended. Hopefully, this will let player corporations compete on equal footing with NPC corporations.
* We would prefer that players join player corporations, or other entities that shape the world of EVE at a higher degree than the NPC corporations do, due to their impersonal and somewhat isolated role. That said, this change is not implemented to “destroy” NPC corps, they should be considered a small motivation to join a player corporation, where you can develop and flourish as a player.

So why 11%?

* After researching average taxes on player corporations, this number seems the most fair, when it comes to maintaining the balance between giving player corporations a competitive edge, and still keeping NPCs habitable. The large majority of corporations in EVE have relatively low levels of tax, which should be reflected in the NPC corporation taxes.
* 11% is our starting estimate. If it turns out that this number is too low and the changes do not have the impact we hope, it can always be adjusted to a higher level. Right now though, we are hoping 11% will provide the balance we are looking for.

So you are in a NPC corporation, what now?

* This might be the perfect time to start looking around for a player corporation. There are several places to look, such as the recruitment forum on eve-online.com, in-game adverts or the recruitment channel.
* If you are in the habit of bossing people or pets around in real life, you may just want to start your own corporation. Corporations do not need a thousand members to be enjoyable, in fact, many people prefer smaller corporations to the bigger ones.
* Still want to stay in an NPC corporation? That’s absolutely fine too, but remember this: while you may escape death in EVE, taxes will still get you.

- CCP Soundwave

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Originally posted by nurgles
from here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=700

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CCP and their stupdity of awesomeness...

Originally posted by xersent

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Gdemami

Hi,
I am happy to present you a significant change in Dominion expansion - NPC corp taxes.

 

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Originally posted by CCP Eris Discordia
This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)

 

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis.

Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.

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While I think this tax is a good idea the people that stay In NPC corps (usually mission alts) dont give a shit about a 15% tax.

Wanna get people out of those lame NPC corps? make that tax like 30%. or better yet make NPC corps have the option to be wardec'd lol.

now that would be funny :)

I agree seeing all those newbies which i cant touch is so frustrating i want to mercilesly gank every newbie

Originally posted by Malcanis

Park full of pedophiles.... that's awesome man. I hope you dont mind if I use that?

Yeah anyway, point taken, EvE is tough and difficult for new players and all that... but the tax will hardly hit new players at all. You pretty much have to be doing level 3 missions or higher for the tax to be noticeable. By which point the training wheels should be ready to come off.

And even if they're not, like I said: EvE Uni. Agony Unleashed.

 

Fell free to use it... *snicker*

As for the tax -- others are right about it.  New players won't really care.  Some startup chars that learn about corporate taxes will see 11% and may go join PC corporations with lower taxes than that to "save a bit" and it may actually help push taxes down in some corporations interested in growing to try and attract new members -- "we charge less than you're paying and you get services for the taxes!!!"

The ones that are screaming about it are senior players who, as some point out, "hide alts" in the NPC corporations and those folks...  Sorry but I really don't have much sympathy for someone "saving pennies" into their multi-billion ISK stashes.  They'll either go into other corporations or mutter and go along with it.  I don't see any mass exodus from the NPC corps into PC corporations nor any real exodus from the game due to 11% taxes on the NPC corporations.

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Originally posted by Eleazaros

The ones that are screaming about it are...

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Originally posted by Gdemami

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Originally posted by Eleazaros

The ones that are screaming about it are...

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  ...same idiots that play this idiots' game while endlessly complaining about how idiotic is the game they are playing.  ... need any more proof of the idiocy of some of our more popular posters?

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Originally posted by Eleazaros
You recommend joining a corp "NOW" to "learn" about the game?  thanks but no thanks.  I'll stick in the relative safety of the NPC corps until I've figure out a bit more about how the hell to avoid dirty tricks. -- you know the "which end your hat should go on" basics vs just jumping in and finding out I landed in the shark tank vs swimming pool.

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Which just means that within the next 6 months you'll probably stay there, and never take the slightest risk of joining a real corp. You'll still be flinging missiles at npcs, if you haven't quit already.

Create a stash of mission running / mining ships in some empire station and go take your time to find a corp that suits you somewhere. With a backup plan, whatever happens to you will be an experience, and recovering from it will be easy.

You just have to take a few risks, which is what eve is all about.

On topic on the npc corp tax.. FINALLY. This will put a good dent into people who are just in the for risk-less isk and don't loot their missions, e.g. rmt farmers without affecting newbies at all. (since their mission rewards are too low to be taxed)