Originally posted by wolfmann

Originally posted by KcissemD

As far as respec goes, i don't think there should be one to respec, i know people like to min max their characters but who cares if one is slightly less powerful than another.  There are character planners out there that will help you plan you build level by level if you are that worried about gimping a character.   if a respec option is added it needs to be some long drawn out process to do so and can only do it once.

 

People said the same about SWG, yet it was one of the most loved features of SWG.

It wasn't the min maxers that used it the most, but the regular players. The ability to keep your character throughout a games lifetime, rebuilding him to your playstyle as you change or explore other playstyles, is way stronger than playing the "alt" game.

Yes, min maxers and "FOTM" people will be using it, but, why punish everyone to play the alt game, because the few would be trying to be the FOTM?

"Few"?

Try "Most".

This is the problem with skill based systems. Everyone wants to respec. Which is odd because of the "freedom" the skill system lets you have suddenly is too restrictive and you need to change....

This is why most games just go with classes. If you want to play a damage dealer, make a damage dealer. If you want to be a medic, make a medic. Doing SWG or UO macro skill grinds is a silly and stupid way to make a character advancement system.

Heaven forbid you have an alt...

Originally posted by wolfmann

Originally posted by KcissemD

As far as respec goes, i don't think there should be one to respec, i know people like to min max their characters but who cares if one is slightly less powerful than another.  There are character planners out there that will help you plan you build level by level if you are that worried about gimping a character.   if a respec option is added it needs to be some long drawn out process to do so and can only do it once.

 

People said the same about SWG, yet it was one of the most loved features of SWG.

It wasn't the min maxers that used it the most, but the regular players. The ability to keep your character throughout a games lifetime, rebuilding him to your playstyle as you change or explore other playstyles, is way stronger than playing the "alt" game.

Yes, min maxers and "FOTM" people will be using it, but, why punish everyone to play the alt game, because the few would be trying to be the FOTM?

see that is my point, respecs just cater to the i want it now crowd, something i'd rather not have around IMO.  If one wants to change their playstyle around they should roll it not respec to it and have everything handed to them,   The more of those you get the more certain dumbing down of features are screamed for and most devs i noticed gives in no matter how hard they try to stick to their original vision.  This has been proven in almost every mmo since 2004,  In this case Icarus is not aiming at those people, so here's hoping they continue NOT doing so the same way CCP for eve online has done.

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Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

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Originally posted by biophazer242

So before we just take shots at the graphics being less then great, how bout we talk about the game itself. 

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Okay - why isn't there realistic water in the game, and why can't you respec?
How many characters can you have, and will you have to repeat the tutorial for each one?
 

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Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Okay - why isn't there realistic water in the game, and why can't you respec?

How many characters can you have, and will you have to repeat the tutorial for each one?

 

You can have four characters, and you can skip the tutorial after the first one.  You can't respec because there's no reason to.  You can't gimp your character in a skill-based system with as much freedom as FE's advancement system has.  Sure there are so-called optimal builds that the min-max crowd will gravitate towards, but frankly those types of players are the ones that research their builds before spending any of their AP.

If you're too lazy to do that, roll another character.  Respecs aren't necessary.

As to the water, I can't answer that.  Maybe the same reason water kills you in Aion: it's an afterthought.

Originally posted by kanechart

http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-17 16-53-46-85.jpg
http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-16 23-12-02-39.jpg
http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-16 21-06-24-80.jpg
http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-17 16-53-46-85.jpg
http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-17 16-53-46-85.jpg

 

 

Why am I posting this not sure.. The Quality of the graphics does not make a game. The game play is what does it.. Yeah you can see there not maybe AoC quality but guess what? How is AoC doing??? OHHHHHHHH Right yeah that is funny.. I guess sometimes making it pretty does not make it good..

 

Anyways them screenshots from sector one at the bottom so I have not been able explore much yet or see forests and such yet.

While I agree that graphics don't make a game, they do however add to a game. In this case they detract from it. Gameplay and performance aside, I just couldn't appreciate the graphics enough to enjoy the setting. I felt as if they were bland and without detail. Just because it's a post-apocalyptic world doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any detail. I just never found that "wow, look at that" moment like I have had in every other MMO that I've enjoyed.

My biggest grip with the graphics was with the textures and more so with the scrubs. First of all, the scrubs look horrific. Secondly, the max distance on them is way too short. Looking at screenshot #2 you can see that the scrubs just stop roughly 50 feet from the character. This made it so that they always "drew" 50 feet out as I traveled. I felt like a bug scrub crayon that was used to draw the scrubs while I moved. The ground details were the same (compare the LOD at your feet to how bland they are 50 feet out). Lastly, they stopped us from removing them completely and forced us into having them set to a minimum of 25 in the options. This is what did it for me. There is no reason that someone shouldn't be allowed to turn a graphics feature completely off if they so choose.

Again, this is with gameplay and performance aside so please don't call me a little child that only likes "shiny" things when I pay for a game upfront and monthly.

Originally posted by kanechart

http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-17 16-53-46-85.jpg
http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-16 23-12-02-39.jpg
http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-16 21-06-24-80.jpg
http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-17 16-53-46-85.jpg
http://apoc.in/x/screens_sept_18/Frontend 2009-09-17 16-53-46-85.jpg

 

 

Why am I posting this not sure.. The Quality of the graphics does not make a game. The game play is what does it.. Yeah you can see there not maybe AoC quality but guess what? How is AoC doing??? OHHHHHHHH Right yeah that is funny.. I guess sometimes making it pretty does not make it good..

 

Anyways them screenshots from sector one at the bottom so I have not been able explore much yet or see forests and such yet.

The first screenshot on your list is what I was saying about the game looking decent in the towns. The second screenshot is a perfect example of how crappy the game looks everywhere else. Maybe it's personal preferrence, but those graphics don't look good at all. I think they could have put a lot more detail into making those shrubs look real and the dirt and other terrain look more believable. Read my post above, and you'll see that neither gameplay alone or graphics alone make a game. You need a good mix of both. I'm not saying Fallen Earth doesn't have both, nor am I saying it does. I think tolerance for gameplay mechanics and graphics is all in the eye of the beholder. I'm still giving FE a real go, so I haven't decided yet, but as a consumer, I have a right to speak my mind on the good and the bad as I see it. Any more or less than that makes me a fanboy or hater.

Originally posted by wolfmann

Originally posted by vixen2

I don't think they should allow respecs, the problem with that would be that everyone would level up as crafter type and when they cap out at max level switch to whatever pvp/combat spec they like with all their gears made, may be an unfair advantage, or if they do allow respecs maybe allow one at level 20 or make it very difficult to get.

 

Crafting is "real time"...

So not only do you have to wait for crafts to be done, but also have to go harvest a crapload of resources to build what you need to level up.

So it would be very time consuming to level up with crafting compared to regular play. Fine for a crafter type, but a combat type that tried to level up by crafting to "exploit" respeccing? He'd be going back to combat before he had gained 3 levels :p

Do you know anything about the game? You can level up full on crafting, and still max out an offensive weapon and dodge for defense. This makes it easy to level up through combat and crafting. Once at level cap, if there were respec, the person would just have to respec the points into Intelligence and put them into something else that'd further flesh out his combat build. So yes, a respec system would allow mix/max'ers to take advantage of the open-ended crafting system.

Originally posted by kanechart

It happens lots of kids out there are all about pretty looking stuff and not about gameplay anymore,. I would consider them the cause of the downfall of most MMORPG's now..

First off - I'm no kid.

Secondly - it's not about the appearance of the water, it's about the functionality of the water. This game is supposed to be high on realism, yet you can't swim in or even wade through water? So much for realism.

BTW, my first gaming computer was a TRS-80. Guess how important graphics are to me.

In a skill-based system, it is easy to gimp your character and have to suffer from then on, if you have no respec.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by kanechart

It happens lots of kids out there are all about pretty looking stuff and not about gameplay anymore,. I would consider them the cause of the downfall of most MMORPG's now..

First off - I'm no kid.

Secondly - it's not about the appearance of the water, it's about the functionality of the water. This game is supposed to be high on realism, yet you can't swim in or even wade through water? So much for realism.

 

BTW, my first gaming computer was a TRS-80. Guess how important graphics are to me.

Well back in them days there wasnt anything better so you had no choice , just stop moaning and nit picking it does get very annoying.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

In a skill-based system, it is easy to gimp your character and have to suffer from then on, if you have no respec.

If it is easy to 'gimp' your character, then it means that the skills are:

A.) not balanced correctly  and

B.) not explained correctly.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

In a skill-based system, it is easy to gimp your character and have to suffer from then on, if you have no respec.

yup you gotta plan and think.

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

In a skill-based system, it is easy to gimp your character and have to suffer from then on, if you have no respec.

 

If it is easy to 'gimp' your character, then it means that the skills are:

A.) not balanced correctly  and

B.) not explained correctly.

C.)Read the owners manual(for those who purchase the Box)

D.)Spend more then 30 seconds on forums reading all the, "I wanna help you", "This is how to start" or "Read this or your screwed" type threads...

Anyone who buys a game and doesnt bother learning about the game deserves what they get, period.

Granted, this game levels fairly guickly so any bad descisions in regards to Skills can be quickly fixed by starting over.

Originally posted by kb056

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

In a skill-based system, it is easy to gimp your character and have to suffer from then on, if you have no respec.

 

If it is easy to 'gimp' your character, then it means that the skills are:

A.) not balanced correctly  and

B.) not explained correctly.

 

C.)Read the owners manual(for those who purchase the Box)

This would fall under the auspices of 'explained correctly' would it not?

D.)Spend more then 30 seconds on forums reading all the, "I wanna help you", "This is how to start" or "Read this or your screwed" type threads...

 If you as a developer are relying on external parties to compensate for flaws in your game design, you're incompetent.

Anyone who buys a game and doesnt bother learning about the game deserves what they get, period.

 You should be able to learn about the game, you know, in the game, not have to spend hours delving through forums at 10Tonhammer trying to puzzle things together.  There's a difference between implementing "easy mode" and just being lazy.

Granted, this game levels fairly guickly so any bad descisions in regards to Skills can be quickly fixed by starting over.

I'd be happier with a EU server, but i may pick it up .... :)

i've read bad stuff, and good stuff...  i'm kinda on the line, just need a push

Originally posted by describable

I'd be happier with a EU server, but i may pick it up .... :)

i've read bad stuff, and good stuff...  i'm kinda on the line, just need a push

What this guy said. But I think i'm just going to go and give this game a go and make my own mind up.

The biggest gripe some people seem to have is the graphics. After all I've read and seen about this game think I can live with that :-)

Originally posted by eric_w66

Originally posted by wolfmann

Originally posted by KcissemD

As far as respec goes, i don't think there should be one to respec, i know people like to min max their characters but who cares if one is slightly less powerful than another.  There are character planners out there that will help you plan you build level by level if you are that worried about gimping a character.   if a respec option is added it needs to be some long drawn out process to do so and can only do it once.

 

People said the same about SWG, yet it was one of the most loved features of SWG.

It wasn't the min maxers that used it the most, but the regular players. The ability to keep your character throughout a games lifetime, rebuilding him to your playstyle as you change or explore other playstyles, is way stronger than playing the "alt" game.

Yes, min maxers and "FOTM" people will be using it, but, why punish everyone to play the alt game, because the few would be trying to be the FOTM?

 

"Few"?

Try "Most".

This is the problem with skill based systems. Everyone wants to respec. Which is odd because of the "freedom" the skill system lets you have suddenly is too restrictive and you need to change....

This is why most games just go with classes. If you want to play a damage dealer, make a damage dealer. If you want to be a medic, make a medic. Doing SWG or UO macro skill grinds is a silly and stupid way to make a character advancement system.

Heaven forbid you have an alt...

That reply is so wrong yet so typical these days.  No one wants to think, they want the developers to do that for them.  Heaven forbid you have to think how to develop a character.  SWG and UO both let you respec skills.  UO, once your skills were maxed some went down when other went up, you could choose which.  In SWG you just changed skills sets.   Eve you don't need to, you can have as many skills as you have time to learn them.   Since the game is just coming out the lack of that won't affect play much.

Actually Character class/level system is just a inordinately dumb system for avatar design and guess who we can thank for that abombination, oh yeah Mr Smedley.  Need I say more?

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by eric_w66

Originally posted by wolfmann

Originally posted by KcissemD

As far as respec goes, i don't think there should be one to respec, i know people like to min max their characters but who cares if one is slightly less powerful than another.  There are character planners out there that will help you plan you build level by level if you are that worried about gimping a character.   if a respec option is added it needs to be some long drawn out process to do so and can only do it once.

 

People said the same about SWG, yet it was one of the most loved features of SWG.

It wasn't the min maxers that used it the most, but the regular players. The ability to keep your character throughout a games lifetime, rebuilding him to your playstyle as you change or explore other playstyles, is way stronger than playing the "alt" game.

Yes, min maxers and "FOTM" people will be using it, but, why punish everyone to play the alt game, because the few would be trying to be the FOTM?

 

"Few"?

Try "Most".

This is the problem with skill based systems. Everyone wants to respec. Which is odd because of the "freedom" the skill system lets you have suddenly is too restrictive and you need to change....

This is why most games just go with classes. If you want to play a damage dealer, make a damage dealer. If you want to be a medic, make a medic. Doing SWG or UO macro skill grinds is a silly and stupid way to make a character advancement system.

Heaven forbid you have an alt...

That reply is so wrong yet so typical these days.  No one wants to think, they want the developers to do that for them.  Heaven forbid you have to think how to develop a character.  SWG and UO both let you respec skills.  UO, once your skills were maxed some went down when other went up, you could choose which.  In SWG you just changed skills sets.   Eve you don't need to, you can have as many skills as you have time to learn them.   Since the game is just coming out the lack of that won't affect play much.

Actually Character class/level system is just a inordinately dumb system for avatar design and guess who we can thank for that abombination, oh yeah Mr Smedley.  Need I say more?

I have a problem with skill caps. It's not really a gameplay issue but a Indy dev issue.

If A dev decides to give his sandbox a cap then they need to have enough content in game so that players that did reach cap don't just keep rolling alts or get bored and leave.  Can the FE devs release enough shit to do in this game to hold over the players that no longer have character advancement to look forward to?

Character advancement is big in a sandbox. Games like Ryzom, Eve and DF don;t have overall skill caps at all so players look passed the limited content (in ryzom and DF atleast) and continually work on characters forever.

In games like UO and SWG we had a cap but you still had flexibility to change your character through a respec or skill set manipulation.  Having the option to always grow your character or change is a big part of a sandbox game.

Now In FE, While the skill system is flexible. We have a cap and a static one at that. Having a static anything is usually bad for a sandbox game. What will happen when you hit cap? what will you do? farm faction the entire time? imo these games need continual character advancement.

Don't get my wrong I love FE, But im not Skill capped so right now I don't have the character advancement basically ripped away from me. What happens when it is? can the game stand on its own and give people enough to stick with it?

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by kanechart

It happens lots of kids out there are all about pretty looking stuff and not about gameplay anymore,. I would consider them the cause of the downfall of most MMORPG's now..

First off - I'm no kid.

Secondly - it's not about the appearance of the water, it's about the functionality of the water. This game is supposed to be high on realism, yet you can't swim in or even wade through water? So much for realism.

 

BTW, my first gaming computer was a TRS-80. Guess how important graphics are to me.

I think there is a general misconception that those who demand good graphics are the younger generation. I contend it is actually we older gamers. We who suffered through Atari et al. At the time it was amazing, cause it was all we knew. But as graphics improved, we came along for the ride and refuse to go back in time to poor visuals. Been there, waited for it to get better, and now that it is we are not taking a step back. Graphics ARE important to me, and I am far from a kid.

Originally posted by Senadina

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by kanechart

It happens lots of kids out there are all about pretty looking stuff and not about gameplay anymore,. I would consider them the cause of the downfall of most MMORPG's now..

First off - I'm no kid.

Secondly - it's not about the appearance of the water, it's about the functionality of the water. This game is supposed to be high on realism, yet you can't swim in or even wade through water? So much for realism.

 

BTW, my first gaming computer was a TRS-80. Guess how important graphics are to me.

 

I think there is a general misconception that those who demand good graphics are the younger generation. I contend it is actually we older gamers. We who suffered through Atari et al. At the time it was amazing, cause it was all we knew. But as graphics improved, we came along for the ride and refuse to go back in time to poor visuals. Been there, waited for it to get better, and now that it is we are not taking a step back. Graphics ARE important to me, and I am far from a kid.

And thats great, graphics rock your boat, they used to with me before I realised I was being suckered in mindless crap all the time but looked good, think it was the same time I realised that about the opposite sex, and stopped being so shallow, (about my partner choices not your game preferences)
 

I much prefer a studio, to spend time on depth and weave a good story, after all not all great books come with fancy pictures, but by the same token I dont want to be handed some crayons and told to fill in the blanks myself.(its so hard to stay inbetween the lines) I am now very cynical when I see a game hype up its game engine more than its content.

So to recap I grew up and learnt not to be so shallow and see past the outer beauty, and to dig deeper for knowledge for my entertainment.....Its nice we all grow up differently, otherwise these forums would be about 2 games and everyone saying how nice one or the other is.