Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by CactusmanX

I don't see why anyone would be against this.  I mean I don't really believe you are going to swing a sword and hear bang and "shoot" a guy with your sword, if anything it would shoot energy or something, or you use a sword like a regular sword but with the stats of the gun, this one is most likely I think. 

Other than the gun/sword thing I can't see why anyone would not want to have something like this in any game, unless you like having your appearence dictated by the items you need to wear due to stats.

 

You are beyond salvation. You have lost all understanding of what an MMORPG is. It's not your fault, it's their fault.

What will be next thing I wonder... looking like a warrior when you are a cleric I guess. I can hear you and the people like you "I want to look the way I want in the game I'm paying to play. And robes are retarded".

Or mobs will stop dropping random items, they will only drop what you need. "I don't want to do stuf over and over again".

Or being able to have an toon (yes it will be a toon then) of every class in the game at the same level as your main toon. "I don't want to do the same quests again".

Sky is the limit for these genius developers and their followers.

So you don't like a game that actually gives you options about how you look and would rather be shackled to all the 1337 items you are forced to collect stiffling any creative control you have and creating nothing but clone characters that are completely uninspired and highly derivitive of your your basic fantasy cliches.

Ok then and here I was thinking RPGs were all about making a character and making choices about what they do and who they are which would be greatly aided by giving the players control over their appearence, but apparently it is all about wearing the appropriate armor style for your designated character type, good thing we cleared that up.

rofl, it reminds me of cheesy scifi flicks where fat ugly swords are firing projectiles or just making fantasy laser-ish sounds as they fire down range. Good stuff. roll with it imo.

Honestly, it will be no different than Champions online. Dont assume one is some how better in that regard. What I believe they mean is that (like champions online) your character might have props, such as a sword on the back, or claws on their hands, but when actually using a gun they will pull it out and fire. The weapon isnt part of the "costume" so to speak.

And...

If I am wrong, and they really meant sword users will be firing bullets out of their ninja swords... then its completely stupid. Part of playing games is reacting to visuals, if you see someone approaching you with a gun, its natural, as part of the challenge, to react as though the gun will be used as a gun, not a sword, nor vice versa.

In my view this is fantastic.

Seperating the Look and customisation of your character from your statistics.

So you can use the Stats and power effects from whatever items you find, while maintaining your core look.

So you use a Sword with STR +30 and CON +40 , let's say. And then you find a gun with STR +40 and CON + 40. So...you want to use the stats from the gun. And you just slot that into whatever equipment slot you have, while leaving your Sword Costume look in tact.

Brilliant, and I wish World of Warcraft and several other MMORPGs had this.

Incidentally, this system is in-place in Runes of Magic, where you can transfer the stats from one piece of equipment to another, maintaining the look of the receiving item, and I think LOTRO has a seperation between items that show up on your character, and items that actually affect your stats.

So DCUO isn't doing anything brand new here, they are just recognising the features that players want from their MMORPGs, and character customsation and concept is one of them.

I assumed he meant you would use a sword but the stat modifiers would be that of the gun you had....but that's just me.

BTW, there was an anime that the guy had a sword that fired metal slivers when he swung it.  So its not completely crazy to think thats how it can work.

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

If I am wrong, and they really meant sword users will be firing bullets out of their ninja swords... then its completely stupid. Part of playing games is reacting to visuals, if you see someone approaching you with a gun, its natural, as part of the challenge, to react as though the gun will be used as a gun, not a sword, nor vice versa.

Well reacting to visuals isn't part of every game.

In Magic: the Gathering you don't have any indication of what abilities your opponent will wield until he/she starts playing cards against you.

I've enjoyed games with both "hidden" and "visible" ability sets.  Although I lean towards "visible" (because it lets you formulate some strategy/tactics before fighting starts, as you say) I've enjoyed both.

Originally posted by CactusmanX

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by CactusmanX

I don't see why anyone would be against this.  I mean I don't really believe you are going to swing a sword and hear bang and "shoot" a guy with your sword, if anything it would shoot energy or something, or you use a sword like a regular sword but with the stats of the gun, this one is most likely I think. 

Other than the gun/sword thing I can't see why anyone would not want to have something like this in any game, unless you like having your appearence dictated by the items you need to wear due to stats.

 

You are beyond salvation. You have lost all understanding of what an MMORPG is. It's not your fault, it's their fault.

What will be next thing I wonder... looking like a warrior when you are a cleric I guess. I can hear you and the people like you "I want to look the way I want in the game I'm paying to play. And robes are retarded".

Or mobs will stop dropping random items, they will only drop what you need. "I don't want to do stuf over and over again".

Or being able to have an toon (yes it will be a toon then) of every class in the game at the same level as your main toon. "I don't want to do the same quests again".

Sky is the limit for these genius developers and their followers.

 

So you don't like a game that actually gives you options about how you look and would rather be shackled to all the 1337 items you are forced to collect stiffling any creative control you have and creating nothing but clone characters that are completely uninspired and highly derivitive of your your basic fantasy cliches.

Ok then and here I was thinking RPGs were all about making a character and making choices about what they do and who they are which would be greatly aided by giving the players control over their appearence, but apparently it is all about wearing the appropriate armor style for your designated character type, good thing we cleared that up.

Have you ever played PnP? That is what RPG is all about. You pick up a sword. If you want  to use it... something really wonderful happens... other people see you weilding a sword! Isn't that amazing!? I know this blows your mind.

In a place called Real Life happens exactly the same for some strange reason.

Originally posted by altairzq

 

Have you ever played PnP? That is what RPG is all about. You pick up a sword. If you want  to use it... something really wonderful happens... other people see you weilding a sword! Isn't that amazing!? I know this blows your mind.

In a place called Real Life happens exactly the same for some strange reason.

As somebody who has probably three rulesets committed to memory nearly in their entirety (SR3, SR4, D&D 3.5), I must say your analogy is profoundly idiotic. The mind-numbing grind and idiotic avatar appearances that people like you (deluded, sad, self-glorifying masochists who long for a non-existant golden age created only by their rose-colored glasses) seem to love are nothing, _nothing_ like any P&P rpg. A P&P rpg session may drag on (combat always take forever), but unless your DM/GM is awful, you will probably have one-hundred times less repetition and monotony and ten to twenty thousand times more creativity than anything you could ever muster in a game like Everquest. That's the whole advantage P&P has today over MMORPG's. If you just want to slice shit up, you may as well play WoW, but if you want true creative control over your character and the world, then you're not going to find that in most modern MMORPG's. Maybe some of the PvP-centric games like EVE have created their own player-driven epic sagas. Everquest or the like, though? No, sorry. Nothing like it at all.

As an aside, I loved the mechanics of Everquest. Corpse runs, huge raids against nearly impossible powerful bosses, spawn camping, obscure quests that were hard to find, difficult and dangerous exploration. When I say that, I mean I loved those mechanics when I played them in MUD's ten years before Everquest was released and copied them all. I find it pretty hilarious that people actually think Everquest was anything original. Everquest was far more derivative than WoW was, if your gaming history goes back far enough. *hands you a tissue in advance*

Anyhow, I'm not going to bother explaining why player creativity should be encouraged and why this is more realistic than your inane ideas. I'll give you a hint, though. If you think of a fantasy hero, you don't think of an imbecile wearing a mismatched clown suit. I won't elaborate because if I have to actually begin to explain why additional allowance for player creativity is good in a fantasy game, then I think you're far, far more of a lost cause than any of the users you condemned earlier.

Sounds like my PNP sessions are broken as hell.  When my character picks up a sword, it's still a wizard miniature with a staff.  :(

I'm gonna write a bug report to my DM.

Actually, this is already implemented on EQ2, you have one appearance slot for your weapon and shield, use your equiped one, show your appearance one.

It's just the next step from the "do not display helmet/cape" option in WoW or DDO or whereever, which people just love. So I personally don't believe it when a lot of people say "characters looks should depend on their equipment". If you'd take away the "hide helmet/cape" option in WoW, there'd be an outrage. People even often complain that they can't hide more items, like shoulders.

So I believe it's one of those things that people want in theory (a character that looks the way it's equipped), but in the end, if the option is available to alter the look no matter what the character wears, most people will use it and wouldn't want it to be gone. It's just another of these realism vs convenience aspects. Like the amount of stuff you can carry around.

Originally posted by Kurush

Originally posted by altairzq

 

Have you ever played PnP? That is what RPG is all about. You pick up a sword. If you want  to use it... something really wonderful happens... other people see you weilding a sword! Isn't that amazing!? I know this blows your mind.

In a place called Real Life happens exactly the same for some strange reason.

 

As somebody who has probably three rulesets committed to memory nearly in their entirety (SR3, SR4, D&D 3.5), I must say your analogy is profoundly idiotic. The mind-numbing grind and idiotic avatar appearances that people like you (deluded, sad, self-glorifying masochists who long for a non-existant golden age created only by their rose-colored glasses) seem to love are nothing, _nothing_ like any P&P rpg. A P&P rpg session may drag on (combat always take forever), but unless your DM/GM is awful, you will probably have one-hundred times less repetition and monotony and ten to twenty thousand times more creativity than anything you could ever muster in a game like Everquest. That's the whole advantage P&P has today over MMORPG's. If you just want to slice shit up, you may as well play WoW, but if you want true creative control over your character and the world, then you're not going to find that in most modern MMORPG's. Maybe some of the PvP-centric games like EVE have created their own player-driven epic sagas. Everquest or the like, though? No, sorry. Nothing like it at all.

As an aside, I loved the mechanics of Everquest. Corpse runs, huge raids against nearly impossible powerful bosses, spawn camping, obscure quests that were hard to find, difficult and dangerous exploration. When I say that, I mean I loved those mechanics when I played them in MUD's ten years before Everquest was released and copied them all. I find it pretty hilarious that people actually think Everquest was anything original. Everquest was far more derivative than WoW was, if your gaming history goes back far enough. *hands you a tissue in advance*

Anyhow, I'm not going to bother explaining why player creativity should be encouraged and why this is more realistic than your inane ideas. I'll give you a hint, though. If you think of a fantasy hero, you don't think of an imbecile wearing a mismatched clown suit. I won't elaborate because if I have to actually begin to explain why additional allowance for player creativity is good in a fantasy game, then I think you're far, far more of a lost cause than any of the users you condemned earlier.

 

Wow nerd rage... duck.

Originally posted by maji

It's just the next step from the "do not display helmet/cape" option in WoW or DDO or whereever, which people just love. So I personally don't believe it when a lot of people say "characters looks should depend on their equipment". If you'd take away the "hide helmet/cape" option in WoW, there'd be an outrage. People even often complain that they can't hide more items, like shoulders.

So I believe it's one of those things that people want in theory (a character that looks the way it's equipped), but in the end, if the option is available to alter the look no matter what the character wears, most people will use it and wouldn't want it to be gone. It's just another of these realism vs convenience aspects. Like the amount of stuff you can carry around.

True it's the next step from WoW, but it's a big step. One thing is hiding some gear and another is completely dissociate the gear you are wearing from the gear you are showing to the world. And, soon some idiotic developer will come up with another idiotic idea that will be just the next step from this one, and step to step we are heading just in one direction which is making MMOs more and more superficial.

We have gone from EQ classic where all weapons looked the same no matter who was wearing it, meaning a normal sword for a gnome was huge, and a dagger in a ogre looked like a toothpick, pretty much like it would happen in RL or in PnP games, to WOW for instance where weapons magically adjsut to the size of the character, which is pretty moronic, to hiding gear as you say, and to this craziness of using a gun and showing a sword.

Originally posted by Draco91

I don't want to see people shooting things with their sword -.-

It needs to be said, but no words can say it ...

Originally posted by altairzq

True it's the next step from WoW, but it's a big step. One thing is hiding some gear and another is completely dissociate the gear you are wearing from the gear you are showing to the world. And, soon some idiotic developer will come up with another idiotic idea that will be just the next step from this one, and step to step we are heading just in one direction which is making MMOs more and more superficial.

We have gone from EQ classic where all weapons looked the same no matter who was wearing it, meaning a normal sword for a gnome was huge, and a dagger in a ogre looked like a toothpick, pretty much like it would happen in RL or in PnP games, to WOW for instance where weapons magically adjsut to the size of the character, which is pretty moronic, to hiding gear as you say, and to this craziness of using a gun and showing a sword.

COX and similar games basically do have completely disassociated visuals and powers.  And it doesn't matter because it's fun and you look cool.

Really I don't see why you're not pushing the whole "Not being able to tell what someone's using reduces my ability to use reactive strategy against his loadout" argument.   Because the emotionally-charged, "I don't like it!" argument is weak and subjective.

But even assuming you're PVPing (which is the only place reactive strategy would matter), the frequency of being able to do something based on the gear loadout you see people fielding is so freaking rare in PVP.  Maybe 1 in 400 WOW PVP kills I've switched to a weak looking target to kill him faster, or CC'd the crap out of the guy with Thunderfury.  Happens more often (I imagine) in Guild Wars due to their armors actually having specific bonuses against certain types of attacks, but even then I doubt it's a huge part of gameplay (maybe a GW'er could chime in?)

Basically if your argument is "I don't like it!" that's going to be outweighed by the majority of players who are saying (with equal emotion) the exact opposite, "I do like it!"

It's not only that I don't like it, it's also that I find it incredibly stupid and one more step to completely meaningless MMOs. And the fact that some people like this feature in a dedicated MMO game site, shows how low this genre has fallen, and there are no signs of stoping.

I take it no one here plays LOTRO. Ya...then your opinions aren't valid.

Elemental damage out of a sword I can understand... something like the spellsword class. But... bullet? Coming out of a sword? Well... it does sound rather rediculous, but I'll wait until I actually see it in action before I condemn it. Who knows, it might actually work differently from what we all expect it to be.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

If I am wrong, and they really meant sword users will be firing bullets out of their ninja swords... then its completely stupid. Part of playing games is reacting to visuals, if you see someone approaching you with a gun, its natural, as part of the challenge, to react as though the gun will be used as a gun, not a sword, nor vice versa.

 

Well reacting to visuals isn't part of every game.

In Magic: the Gathering you don't have any indication of what abilities your opponent will wield until he/she starts playing cards against you.

I've enjoyed games with both "hidden" and "visible" ability sets.  Although I lean towards "visible" (because it lets you formulate some strategy/tactics before fighting starts, as you say) I've enjoyed both.

Actually, because video games are visual mediums, reaction based on a visual is always part of the challenge, often in varying degrees. In MTG, you react to the number of cards in an opponents hand, you react to the types of land the opponent uses, when the opponent summons a creature, you react to that act. You can look or know what abilities that summon can do, and react accordingly.

Most video games, especially those with real time action, have reaction, recognition, as part of the challenge. If an enemy bursts out with a baseball bat, the recognition and reaction by the user is taken into account... therefor you understand that this enemy will use it as a melee weapon, not a rocket launcher or magic wand. IF that does happen, what occurs then is usually called Alienation. It pulls the user away from the game to think about it, which is the exact opposite of immersion.

It goes into much more detail if you look into game design theory. Much of it is pretty basic though, a series of challenges created by a rule set, one of the most use challenges...rather...always used to some degree... is spacial reasoning, which is what we talked about above.

Lot's of good responses, and the poll seems to accurately reflect the posts here. People seem to be divided almost evenly between like the idea, hate it, need to see it in action to decide.

I wish there was some video of the character with the sword look using the gun power, but I guess we'll have to wait a bit for that. After we see exactly what it looks like some opinions may change either way.

I am surprised how many people like to wear pajama bottoms with red underwear over them.