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9/17/09 2:39:29 PM#101
WoW is not the reason that crappy games are being made, it is the people designing them that produce the garbage. WoW set a higher standard and nobody since has been able to touch it. When someone finally gets it then we'll have a game as good and as polished as WoW, whether it is another theme park or a sandbox if the game is not well made and polished it'll just be another POSG that comes and goes and is soon forgotten like so many others. Game companies any more think they can just toss out games with little content and less polsih and think they've got the next big thing. Sorry to burst their bubbles but that day has come and gone years ago. So my advice to future game producers and designers. Make a game that is fun to play first and foremost. Polish it and make sure it has plenty of content. If you fail to do those three things your game will be tossed on the pile of steaming POSG's along with the rest of the garbage. ![]() |
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Lansid
Novice Member
Joined: 8/21/03
"Remember... no matter where you go... there you are!" |
9/17/09 3:10:17 PM#102
Originally posted by Teala Pretty much, Ref Tabula Rasa & Hellgate:London. And sorry, UO and EQ were the first MMO's I played... they were great... much as I remembered Phantasm being an awesome movie when I watched it when I was a kid... and then watched it again and realised... wow... not as awesome as I remembered. I don't miss camping the same damned spot in EQ for 4 hours straight.... OH YEAH THAT WAS FUN! Totally immersive. I don't miss zoning into trains. I don't miss dying once and being forced to grind the next 4-5 hours to replace the xp I lost just because of ONE bad pull, or linkdeath. Damn... WoW made it so you could enjoy playing a "game", casually or not. Also, obvious troll is obvious. "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain." |
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9/17/09 9:20:36 PM#103
Originally posted by Lansid Pretty much, Ref Tabula Rasa & Hellgate:London. And sorry, UO and EQ were the first MMO's I played... they were great... much as I remembered Phantasm being an awesome movie when I watched it when I was a kid... and then watched it again and realised... wow... not as awesome as I remembered. I don't miss camping the same damned spot in EQ for 4 hours straight.... OH YEAH THAT WAS FUN! Totally immersive. I don't miss zoning into trains. I don't miss dying once and being forced to grind the next 4-5 hours to replace the xp I lost just because of ONE bad pull, or linkdeath. Damn... WoW made it so you could enjoy playing a "game", casually or not. Also, obvious troll is obvious.
2Moons,9Dragons,A3,AdventureQuest,Aion,ArchLord,CabalOnline,Conquer Online,Corum Online, Dark Age of Camelot,EudemonsOnline,Fiesta Online,Florensia,Flyff,GuildWars,HeroOnline,KALOnline,Knight Online,Last Chaos,LOTRO,Mabinogi,MapleStory,MUOnline,POTCO,Rakion,Rappelz,RFOnline,Rubies of Eventide,Runes of Magic,Runescape,Shaiya,SilkroadOnline,Sword of the New World,Talisman Online, Twelve Sky,Twelve Sky 2 |
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9/17/09 10:17:11 PM#104
How about a different question? How do you feel about caring about the hard core players if you're a casual? If you cared about "hardcore" gaming, then you should be a hard core gamer there with them. Anyone who feels anything for a hardcore player should either be a hardcore player themselves, or else realize they're the root of the problem, not the game. Of course, if you are a hardcore player who cares about hardcore players, then you've got a case. But in that situation its still your problem, because either you're jealous of the player doing better than you because you can't match their success, or your egotistical and arrogant that other people can't match your success. Likewise, blaming WoW for ANYTHING other than issues directly part of WoW is like a drunk blaming the booze. |
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9/17/09 11:26:31 PM#105
Originally posted by Nessin I always wonder why a self proclaimed casual player would care at all about a hardcore gamers rewards or play style. Its not like you're directly competing with those people. The only time you've even interacting with them is a chance meeting in a Battleground or maybe on a PvP server if you happen to cross paths. And if they whoop you down, does it really matter? You're not in the arenas with them. They're not preventing you from doing anything really. Their accomplishments certainly don't effect you. If your'e casual, you're just happy beating a dungeon on normal mode, I'd imagine. Most people playing are not hartdcore. MOst are casual so you'll be competing with them most of the time, so you'll be on the same footing most of the time. If you find you're losing to most people most of the time, then its not a problem with the game. Its a problem with the person losing since its not hard to get to a point where you're competitive with the majority. Besides, why should a casual player be able to compete with a hardcore player anyway? I've been playing Tennis casually for my entire life. Do I expect to compete with Federer or Nadal? Hell no. They deserve to whoop my a$$ because they're hardcore. I'm not. I certainly wouldn't expect to beat them just like I wouldn't expect to beat someone in WOW that plays 6 hrs a day. Casual players shouldn't care about hardcore players because they really don't have much impact on eachother. They actually help casuals by writing FAQs to follow, if thats your thing. Otherwise, the occasional tussle in PvP shouldn't bother a casual. You shouldn't care much about losing to someone who SHOULD beat you. Right? DO you expect to throw as well as Payton Manning when you're playing some flag football in the backyard? A MMO is no different. Paying a subscription fee doesn't guarantee you equality. If it did, that would be one shallow game.
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Lansid
Novice Member
Joined: 8/21/03
"Remember... no matter where you go... there you are!" |
9/17/09 11:49:41 PM#106
An even better question... what makes a person "hardcore"? Is it better or worse than a "causal"? Does it really make a difference with a video game? I'm sure there are some badass people who compete in full contact origami, and they'd probably kick my ass at it, so therefore they are hardcore... right? "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain." |
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9/17/09 11:54:28 PM#107
Yes, gun kill people. |
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Shannia
Novice Member
Joined: 11/06/05
"World of WarCraft is held alive solely by the mediocrity of competing products." RendRegen |
9/18/09 12:10:41 AM#108
Originally posted by Tisiphone
That simplicity is the key to WoW's success. You people keep saying how simple WoW is, yet very few guilds ever defeat the endgame content until they've leveled past it. To this day, this than 1/2 of 1 percent of the WoW population has beaten The Black Temple. WoW is harder than most games if you dare to go looking for that content. The problem is, you may not be in the right guild to be able to handle the content to get to the good stuff.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware "Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product." |
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heartless
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/05/04
Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan |
9/18/09 12:16:38 AM#109
Originally posted by Josher I always wonder why a self proclaimed casual player would care at all about a hardcore gamers rewards or play style. Its not like you're directly competing with those people. The only time you've even interacting with them is a chance meeting in a Battleground or maybe on a PvP server if you happen to cross paths. And if they whoop you down, does it really matter? Once casuals and hardcores meet in PvP, it starts to matter, even if it's a chance encounter. If any one person can prevent another from having a good time simply because his gear is vastly superior, then the game has problems. As a casual MMO player, I could care less if you raid all day long to get you level 269, or whatever, gear. What I do care about is when you get into a PvP environment with me and 2 shot me, not because you're a better PvPer than me but because you're a PvE raider. See PvP is an environment where players directly interact with other players and having the best gear because you have more free time on your hands skews that interaction towards your side. In short, while you do what you do, I don't care but when you do something that influences me, than it starts to matter.
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Lansid
Novice Member
Joined: 8/21/03
"Remember... no matter where you go... there you are!" |
9/18/09 12:35:58 AM#110
Originally posted by heartless Once casuals and hardcores meet in PvP, it starts to matter, even if it's a chance encounter. If any one person can prevent another from having a good time simply because his gear is vastly superior, then the game has problems. As a casual MMO player, I could care less if you raid all day long to get you level 269, or whatever, gear. What I do care about is when you get into a PvP environment with me and 2 shot me, not because you're a better PvPer than me but because you're a PvE raider. See PvP is an environment where players directly interact with other players and having the best gear because you have more free time on your hands skews that interaction towards your side. In short, while you do what you do, I don't care but when you do something that influences me, than it starts to matter. Well in this instance, it's a PvE game that you level in and gear up from mainly, to PvP on the side. I always hoped that WoW would incorporate a GW-like situation where you could make a stock PvP toon, or a seperate leveling system based on PvP combat, where the PvP'ers could only participate in PvP scenereos with their PvP specific toons, and work their way up in levels, ect... or have them start stock at certain levels... I dunno how the system would or could work, but something along those lines. Know what I mean? "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain." |
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Kaocan
Advanced Member
Joined: 8/18/09
The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend. |
9/18/09 12:45:43 AM#111
Originally posted by Shannia
I'm one of those few has actually finished the Black Temple, but the point you made there always made me wonder. Why does Blizzard design so much of thier end game content towards so small a % of thier user base? You would think they wouldn't but they do. (DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.) |
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heartless
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/05/04
Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan |
9/18/09 12:55:16 AM#112
Originally posted by Kaocan
I'm one of those few has actually finished the Black Temple, but the point you made there always made me wonder. Why does Blizzard design so much of thier end game content towards so small a % of thier user base? You would think they wouldn't but they do.
The lead raid, instance and quest designer for WoW was a hardcore EQ raider. Later, this person became the lead designer for WoW. That's why WoW's end game is so skewed towards the raiding minority. I'm talking about Jeffrey "Tigole" Kaplan, of course.
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9/18/09 6:13:58 AM#113
Originally posted by Kaocan
I'm one of those few has actually finished the Black Temple, but the point you made there always made me wonder. Why does Blizzard design so much of thier end game content towards so small a % of thier user base? You would think they wouldn't but they do. Actual hard content(end-vanilla+all BC)=People bitch it's too easy. |
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9/18/09 6:30:13 AM#114
Originally posted by Thenarius Actual hard content(end-vanilla+all BC)=People bitch it's too easy. I think saying WOW is a hard game due to about 1-2% of its content is lame. What if you don't enjoy raiding? Guess the game is Ezmode then? PLaying: EvE, Ryzom Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum |
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9/18/09 6:37:46 AM#115
Originally posted by metalhead980 Actual hard content(end-vanilla+all BC)=People bitch it's too easy. I think saying WOW is a hard game due to about 1-2% of its content is lame. What if you don't enjoy raiding? Guess the game is Ezmode then? Actually about 75% of BC and Vanilla raiding was extremely hard pre-nerfs, not to mention mirror matches in arena at gladiator rating/grinding HWL, then Blizzard North died. |
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9/18/09 6:42:33 AM#116
Originally posted by Thenarius I think saying WOW is a hard game due to about 1-2% of its content is lame. What if you don't enjoy raiding? Guess the game is Ezmode then? Actually about 75% of BC and Vanilla raiding was extremely hard pre-nerfs, not to mention mirror matches in arena at gladiator rating/grinding HWL, then Blizzard North died. I ran both Naxx at 60 and BT at 70 and I found both challenging but thats expected since thats designed for the hardcore raiders. What about the rest of the game though? this is where WoW gets its Ezmode tag from. The entire game is a solo Rpg until you become a hardcore raider or one of those 2200+ arena guys. thats only like 2% of the content in the game. For WoW to lose that Ezmode tag they need to bring back elite mobs while questing and stop[ all of this Solo until level cap shit. I know many people that don't even group until level cap with the exception of maybe one or two leveling dungeons. PLaying: EvE, Ryzom Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum |
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9/18/09 6:48:00 AM#117
Originally posted by metalhead980 I think saying WOW is a hard game due to about 1-2% of its content is lame. What if you don't enjoy raiding? Guess the game is Ezmode then? Actually about 75% of BC and Vanilla raiding was extremely hard pre-nerfs, not to mention mirror matches in arena at gladiator rating/grinding HWL, then Blizzard North died. I ran both Naxx at 60 and BT at 70 and I found both challenging but thats expected since thats designed for the hardcore raiders. What about the rest of the game though? this is where WoW gets its Ezmode tag from. The entire game is a solo Rpg until you become a hardcore raider or one of those 2200+ arena guys. thats only like 2% of the content in the game. For WoW to lose that Ezmode tag they need to bring back elite mobs while questing and stop[ all of this Solo until level cap shit. I know many people that don't even group until level cap with the exception of maybe one or two leveling dungeons. There was also the entire Sunwell Plateau, Kael'Thas, Lady Vashj, Nightbane(of course, all thse bosses pre-nerfs, Blizzard likes to overnerf bosses to oblivion). Leveling willl also be very hard in Cataclysm, some leaks from the past suggested that their original idea was to introduce raiding instances for 81-85, since it took months. Obviously, it won't be like that, but it will still matter. |
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9/18/09 6:58:58 AM#118
Originally posted by Thenarius Actually about 75% of BC and Vanilla raiding was extremely hard pre-nerfs, not to mention mirror matches in arena at gladiator rating/grinding HWL, then Blizzard North died. I ran both Naxx at 60 and BT at 70 and I found both challenging but thats expected since thats designed for the hardcore raiders. What about the rest of the game though? this is where WoW gets its Ezmode tag from. The entire game is a solo Rpg until you become a hardcore raider or one of those 2200+ arena guys. thats only like 2% of the content in the game. For WoW to lose that Ezmode tag they need to bring back elite mobs while questing and stop[ all of this Solo until level cap shit. I know many people that don't even group until level cap with the exception of maybe one or two leveling dungeons. There was also the entire Sunwell Plateau, Kael'Thas, Lady Vashj, Nightbane(of course, all thse bosses pre-nerfs, Blizzard likes to overnerf bosses to oblivion). Leveling willl also be very hard in Cataclysm, some leaks from the past suggested that their original idea was to introduce raiding instances for 81-85, since it took months. Obviously, it won't be like that, but it will still matter.
Everyone knows that level 60 forty man, level 70 25 man and level 80 "hardmode" 25 mans are the hard content in wow. But what about the other stuff? Will leveling become challenging? remember back in vanilla wow when quest hubs would send you into dens with elites. You needed to get a group of 3-5 guys to clear it. Blizz took all of that away. Again talking about 2% of WoWs content (raids) doesnt make WoW a hard game overall. What is the new expansion doing to fix the 98% of the content that a child can do? PLaying: EvE, Ryzom Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum |
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9/18/09 7:29:43 AM#119
Originally posted by metalhead980 Actually about 75% of BC and Vanilla raiding was extremely hard pre-nerfs, not to mention mirror matches in arena at gladiator rating/grinding HWL, then Blizzard North died. I ran both Naxx at 60 and BT at 70 and I found both challenging but thats expected since thats designed for the hardcore raiders. What about the rest of the game though? this is where WoW gets its Ezmode tag from. The entire game is a solo Rpg until you become a hardcore raider or one of those 2200+ arena guys. thats only like 2% of the content in the game. For WoW to lose that Ezmode tag they need to bring back elite mobs while questing and stop[ all of this Solo until level cap shit. I know many people that don't even group until level cap with the exception of maybe one or two leveling dungeons. There was also the entire Sunwell Plateau, Kael'Thas, Lady Vashj, Nightbane(of course, all thse bosses pre-nerfs, Blizzard likes to overnerf bosses to oblivion). Leveling willl also be very hard in Cataclysm, some leaks from the past suggested that their original idea was to introduce raiding instances for 81-85, since it took months. Obviously, it won't be like that, but it will still matter.
Everyone knows that level 60 forty man, level 70 25 man and level 80 "hardmode" 25 mans are the hard content in wow. But what about the other stuff? Will leveling become challenging? remember back in vanilla wow when quest hubs would send you into dens with elites. You needed to get a group of 3-5 guys to clear it. Blizz took all of that away. Again talking about 2% of WoWs content (raids) doesnt make WoW a hard game overall. What is the new expansion doing to fix the 98% of the content that a child can do? Well, they'll make leveling to 85harder+the fact that there's another hidden "leveling" after you get 85, similar to evolving skills in a sandbox game, you can choose certain paths and masteries, becoming really good at things based on how much you played. Hard leveling was the masterpiece being L2 during C1-C3. I remember the fun times of doing mob trains(and getting people killed with them, lulz), meeting new people and the fact that after a certain level, you couldn't solo at all. But WoW was never like that, and it would be insane to make it like that and call it a "fix". |
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9/18/09 7:33:31 AM#120
Well, it's about time they start copying AA from EQ, hehe. |
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