Originally posted by SgtFrog

..if this mmorpg is all about story then this method will be much better story wise.

Thats because the game isn't about your story. Its Bioware's story and its going to be on rails. Many branchings no doubt, but rails nonetheless.

Its a matter of preference I guess whether you think thats good or bad.

Originally posted by Anubisan

Is this really such a big deal though?

I think most people probably have an idea of where they want to go with their characters before even starting.

I remember when I played KOTOR, each time I started a new game I thought to myself "I'm going to be REALLY EVIL" this time, or "I'm going to be really good!". I pretty much decided which path I was going to take from the beginning and followed it.

It really doesn't matter what they decide at the beginning. Stories eventually end, and if Bioware's game is to be successful at all, they are going to want people to continue playing after the initial story runs out. People change their minds, or just want to change up the pace in the duration of their playtime. Therefore, switching sides, and not just only once at a specific point in the story, is quite beneficial to both Bioware and the players.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by fennec12

Originally posted by ConverseSC

Because this is a story-driven game, not your personal sandbox adventure.

 

So??

It can't be that hard to do. WoW had it since launch. It's call reputation grind. In WoW there is a questline in Desolace where you got to choose between 2 fractions. You wage war on one and support the other. Granted, it was not the most complicated questline, but later on (and in the expansions) reputation became even more importtant, and as you got more rep you had access to other quests and rewards.

They could easly implement this in TOR to.

Lets say a questgiver ask you to collect some money that a person ows. You could then simply kill him and take it, or you could ask him for it. He might say he doesn't have it, and ask you to help him earn it. One line will give you evil points, the other good points.

Another quest could be 2 persons discussing a war between 2 other fractions.  One person wants to earn money on the war, and the other wants the conflict removed to get stability in the region, so he can go in and gather resources. You can then chose to kill one of the leaders disgused as their enemy (to get the war going), or try to resolve the conflict. In the end you wont be able to resolve the conflict, but the two fractions both desides to let your questgiver enter the area to gather the resources. The good line, could still end up with one of the leaders being killed, but in this case by an npc (not you). In both cases the area is still affected by war.

We could also take the 2 fractions, and choose to support them in different ways. One questline ask you to kill npc's of one fraction. This will let you gain rep with one and loss rep with the other (and gaining evil points). Another line could be to gather healing resources. You will only gain rep with the fraction (you wont loss rep with the other) and earn good points. You could do this with both fractions, to become "exalted" with both. A true Jedi would be friendly with both fractions, help resolve the conflict, and help with food/water/medicine on both sides. But would never help one side kill the other.

I should have stopped after "WoW had it", but I'll bite. Starting out as neutral is not part of the game design, end of story. Jedi and Sith started training on one side or the other there was no School for the in between Jedi. Gray/Dark/Light is not a "faction" it's a stand point, a state of mind. Start out as neutral would be irrelevant and unnecessary since you have to pick a side anyways. I would rather be given the option to chose a path instead of having to find myself. People already know if they are going to play Sith or Jedi, this would be pointless.

I understand your point when it comes to Sith and Jedi but what about Bounty Hunters,Smugglers and Spies?  Those people did it for the money and nothing else. I'll grant that in the movies Han Solo and Boba Fett picked sides, but I'm sure that there were many neutral factions going on. The Hutts have been notorious for being neutral. They only join a faction when it is in their best interest to do so. I think making those three professions neutral at the start would add something special that you can't have with jedi and would make them more unique.

Originally posted by greed0104

I should have stopped after "WoW had it", but I'll bite. Starting out as neutral is not part of the game design, end of story. Jedi and Sith started training on one side or the other there was no School for the in between Jedi. Gray/Dark/Light is not a "faction" it's a stand point, a state of mind. Start out as neutral would be irrelevant and unnecessary since you have to pick a side anyways. I would rather be given the option to chose a path instead of having to find myself. People already know if they are going to play Sith or Jedi, this would be pointless.

And yet the lore is full of jedi/sith who have changed sides.

Yes most people know what side they want to play, and will stay on that side forever. But as ktanner3 also said, then the Star Wars lore is full of neutral classes. And I would like to play one of those classes. And play them as neutral. I can't deside between bounty hunter or smugler, but so far most likely smugler. And I have every intention on making my profit on both the republic and the sith. Or maby some other fraction (Hutt's??)

I can understand that if you chose sith warrior or jedi, you have chosen your path, but it doesn't realy have to be that way. Ofcause the starting area for each class will include primary good or evil quest, and that way quickly change your aligment. But once you hit "the real world" it should be my own chose how I solve the quests.

As for pvp senarios. What fraction you play for, should simply be selected by what npc you sign up at.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by fennec12

Originally posted by ConverseSC

Because this is a story-driven game, not your personal sandbox adventure.

 

So??

It can't be that hard to do. WoW had it since launch. It's call reputation grind. In WoW there is a questline in Desolace where you got to choose between 2 fractions. You wage war on one and support the other. Granted, it was not the most complicated questline, but later on (and in the expansions) reputation became even more importtant, and as you got more rep you had access to other quests and rewards.

They could easly implement this in TOR to.

Lets say a questgiver ask you to collect some money that a person ows. You could then simply kill him and take it, or you could ask him for it. He might say he doesn't have it, and ask you to help him earn it. One line will give you evil points, the other good points.

Another quest could be 2 persons discussing a war between 2 other fractions.  One person wants to earn money on the war, and the other wants the conflict removed to get stability in the region, so he can go in and gather resources. You can then chose to kill one of the leaders disgused as their enemy (to get the war going), or try to resolve the conflict. In the end you wont be able to resolve the conflict, but the two fractions both desides to let your questgiver enter the area to gather the resources. The good line, could still end up with one of the leaders being killed, but in this case by an npc (not you). In both cases the area is still affected by war.

We could also take the 2 fractions, and choose to support them in different ways. One questline ask you to kill npc's of one fraction. This will let you gain rep with one and loss rep with the other (and gaining evil points). Another line could be to gather healing resources. You will only gain rep with the fraction (you wont loss rep with the other) and earn good points. You could do this with both fractions, to become "exalted" with both. A true Jedi would be friendly with both fractions, help resolve the conflict, and help with food/water/medicine on both sides. But would never help one side kill the other.

I should have stopped after "WoW had it", but I'll bite. Starting out as neutral is not part of the game design, end of story. Jedi and Sith started training on one side or the other there was no School for the in between Jedi. Gray/Dark/Light is not a "faction" it's a stand point, a state of mind. Start out as neutral would be irrelevant and unnecessary since you have to pick a side anyways. I would rather be given the option to chose a path instead of having to find myself. People already know if they are going to play Sith or Jedi, this would be pointless.

 

I understand your point when it comes to Sith and Jedi but what about Bounty Hunters,Smugglers and Spies?  Those people did it for the money and nothing else. I'll grant that in the movies Han Solo and Boba Fett picked sides, but I'm sure that there were many neutral factions going on. The Hutts have been notorious for being neutral. They only join a faction when it is in their best interest to do so. I think making those three professions neutral at the start would add something special that you can't have with jedi and would make them more unique.

To be honest we don't know if they start out neutral or not. Bounty Hunter does start out on Nal Hutta, so I get the impression they start out working for the Hutts. I think Smugglers start out on Ord Mantell with Trooper so I'm not sure if there will be a neutral side to it. I wouldn't cross it out though. Possibly the Smuggler some how ends up getting involved in the war there, kinda like Han. As for Spies, it's anybodies guess at this point, sure the video was a good hint at the possibility of playing them, but you can never be to sure. I doubt they would start out neutral though, there is more then one form of spy. Take recon for example, seems more like what a freelance spy would be. Considering the Spy is going to be faction sided (if it is a class) I see it following a story of being a saboteur consider the assassinations it depicted in the timeline video.

Originally posted by fennec12

Originally posted by greed0104

I should have stopped after "WoW had it", but I'll bite. Starting out as neutral is not part of the game design, end of story. Jedi and Sith started training on one side or the other there was no School for the in between Jedi. Gray/Dark/Light is not a "faction" it's a stand point, a state of mind. Start out as neutral would be irrelevant and unnecessary since you have to pick a side anyways. I would rather be given the option to chose a path instead of having to find myself. People already know if they are going to play Sith or Jedi, this would be pointless.

And yet the lore is full of jedi/sith who have changed sides.

Yes most people know what side they want to play, and will stay on that side forever. But as ktanner3 also said, then the Star Wars lore is full of neutral classes. And I would like to play one of those classes. And play them as neutral. I can't deside between bounty hunter or smugler, but so far most likely smugler. And I have every intention on making my profit on both the republic and the sith. Or maby some other fraction (Hutt's??)

I can understand that if you chose sith warrior or jedi, you have chosen your path, but it doesn't realy have to be that way. Ofcause the starting area for each class will include primary good or evil quest, and that way quickly change your aligment. But once you hit "the real world" it should be my own chose how I solve the quests.

As for pvp senarios. What fraction you play for, should simply be selected by what npc you sign up at.

Have changed sides, but didn't "start out" like the OP wanted. Did you think the OP meant switching later on? Because I didn't get that impression.

And just for clarity, I never mentioned other classes, those are understandable, but jedi starting out neutral just doesn't seem right.

First of all Everyone Knows that not all DARK Force users are Sith. It is known through out the lore of StarWars. Sith are a selective group of elite individuals just like Jedi. Being force sensitive is a neutral situation in itself as the Force is both Dark and Light at the same time. You slide one way or the other based on choices.

Please understand the basics of the subject before trying to make an argument that ends up being false fundamentally.

The fact that the Jedi and Sith believe that only 1 side of the force can prevail over the other is the great tragedy of the situation. They have yet to learn that one cannot exist with out the other.

The force is most unbalanced when 1 side dominates.

The true Force warrior that will bring balance to the Force is the one who accepts both his Light and Dark side of his persona equally. That  Force warrior will be the most powerful being able to draw from both sides of spectrum and dare I say it combine them!!!

Originally posted by franksalbe

First of all Everyone Knows that not all DARK Force users are Sith. It is known through out the lore of StarWars. Sith are a selective group of elite individuals just like Jedi. Being force sensitive is a neutral situation in itself as the Force is both Dark and Light at the same time. You slide one way or the other based on choices.

Please understand the basics of the subject before trying to make an argument that ends up being false fundamentally.

The fact that the Jedi and Sith believe that only 1 side of the force can prevail over the other is the great tragedy of the situation. They have yet to learn that one cannot exist with out the other.

The force is most unbalanced when 1 side dominates.

The true Force warrior that will bring balance to the Force is the one who accepts both his Light and Dark side of his persona equally. That  Force warrior will be the most powerful being able to draw from both sides of spectrum and dare I say it combine them!!!

 

Where the hell are you getting all this?  I never said sith were not able to follow a light force. L2read.

I'm not talking about Dark, Light or Gray. I'm talking about Empire and Republic. Please understand "Force Sensitive" does not mean Jedi or Sith, and has nothing to do with being Neutral. Not every force sensitive person took on the path to becoming a Jedi or Sith, I can garentee that. The game takes place in training, why would you wanna step back be completely force retarded and have to learn it and THEN pick a side. You already know if you want to be Sith or Jedi, I would rather skip the irrelevance of everything before that.

And please don't mistake "side" for force direction, again.

Dude i agree with you on that  100% but what is happening is that people  keep using phrases like  jedi being evil or sith being good and swaying between these points.

It confuses the hell out of the subject and also how the frame work fr these 2 distinct  philosophies interact in the SW lore.  You can call it direction, sides, or what ever means of splitting up an idea in 2 and making them oppose each other.

I understand we are talking about republic and empire, Jedi and SIth. The problem comes when people start adding adjectives to things that don't quite fit.

Also, this thread subject did start with the title Force users and the word neutral and twisted into the idea being discussed which is a Jedi going dark and still being classed as a Jedi and vice-versa, and how all that is going to play out. If such a scenario where to arise in game. That Idea is messy at it's best.

The Dark, Light, and Gray system as far as I know affect your abilities, think of them like skill trees. Yes, this thread has been twisted around a bit. To be honest I don't care about the outcome, "fun" is all I really care about. I have never been a fan of Jedi or Sith, I was always a Han and Bobba fan. Bobba wasn't really the reason, Bobba was a puss, in my opinion. But the profession as a whole was captivating. My favorite Bounty Hunter I have seen (puts flame suit on) is actually Cad Bane, I know a lot of you guys dislike the Clone Wars series, but he makes it worth watching. 

I agree that it is a bit off topic from apparent original intentions of the OP of this thread, but I felt an overwhelming desire to second what was posted regarding a "betrayal" quest line of sorts similar to that in EQ2.  I also have played EQ2, and have completed the betrayal quests on multiple characters.  Like the previous poster, I agree it was not only very enjoyable, but quite difficult as well (thereby limiting the number of times one would go about doing it.) This is something incredibly unique to that game, and something I have longed for in other MMO's since. I find the lore of Starwars to honestly be the best and most fitting place to hopefully find it again.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by fennec12

Originally posted by ConverseSC

Because this is a story-driven game, not your personal sandbox adventure.

 

So??

It can't be that hard to do. WoW had it since launch. It's call reputation grind. In WoW there is a questline in Desolace where you got to choose between 2 fractions. You wage war on one and support the other. Granted, it was not the most complicated questline, but later on (and in the expansions) reputation became even more importtant, and as you got more rep you had access to other quests and rewards.

They could easly implement this in TOR to.

Lets say a questgiver ask you to collect some money that a person ows. You could then simply kill him and take it, or you could ask him for it. He might say he doesn't have it, and ask you to help him earn it. One line will give you evil points, the other good points.

Another quest could be 2 persons discussing a war between 2 other fractions.  One person wants to earn money on the war, and the other wants the conflict removed to get stability in the region, so he can go in and gather resources. You can then chose to kill one of the leaders disgused as their enemy (to get the war going), or try to resolve the conflict. In the end you wont be able to resolve the conflict, but the two fractions both desides to let your questgiver enter the area to gather the resources. The good line, could still end up with one of the leaders being killed, but in this case by an npc (not you). In both cases the area is still affected by war.

We could also take the 2 fractions, and choose to support them in different ways. One questline ask you to kill npc's of one fraction. This will let you gain rep with one and loss rep with the other (and gaining evil points). Another line could be to gather healing resources. You will only gain rep with the fraction (you wont loss rep with the other) and earn good points. You could do this with both fractions, to become "exalted" with both. A true Jedi would be friendly with both fractions, help resolve the conflict, and help with food/water/medicine on both sides. But would never help one side kill the other.

I should have stopped after "WoW had it", but I'll bite. Starting out as neutral is not part of the game design, end of story. Jedi and Sith started training on one side or the other there was no School for the in between Jedi. Gray/Dark/Light is not a "faction" it's a stand point, a state of mind. Start out as neutral would be irrelevant and unnecessary since you have to pick a side anyways. I would rather be given the option to chose a path instead of having to find myself. People already know if they are going to play Sith or Jedi, this would be pointless.

 

I understand your point when it comes to Sith and Jedi but what about Bounty Hunters,Smugglers and Spies?  Those people did it for the money and nothing else. I'll grant that in the movies Han Solo and Boba Fett picked sides, but I'm sure that there were many neutral factions going on. The Hutts have been notorious for being neutral. They only join a faction when it is in their best interest to do so. I think making those three professions neutral at the start would add something special that you can't have with jedi and would make them more unique.

To be honest we don't know if they start out neutral or not. Bounty Hunter does start out on Nal Hutta, so I get the impression they start out working for the Hutts. I think Smugglers start out on Ord Mantell with Trooper so I'm not sure if there will be a neutral side to it. I wouldn't cross it out though. Possibly the Smuggler some how ends up getting involved in the war there, kinda like Han. As for Spies, it's anybodies guess at this point, sure the video was a good hint at the possibility of playing them, but you can never be to sure. I doubt they would start out neutral though, there is more then one form of spy. Take recon for example, seems more like what a freelance spy would be. Considering the Spy is going to be faction sided (if it is a class) I see it following a story of being a saboteur consider the assassinations it depicted in the timeline video.

 

We don't know how they start but we have a good idea how they end up.