UO and EQ were great games, while not as appealing anymore (due to older graphics).

These games gave people worlds to explore and live in. Only a handful of small indy titles have tried to dublicated the feeling people had with those games.

If we didnt have the odd sandbox here and there this genre would be next to worthless.

Originally posted by altairzq

Sure thing EQ classic was far from perfect. I coulnd't stand the camping. A group sitting on a safe spot and then the puller bringing the mobs. I remember I was praying for someone to make a mistake to have some fun.

But the mechanics of the game, corpse run, weight, factions, kos, free combat, no map, no radar, no minimap, etc etc etc it's something no modern MMO has been able/dared to get even close to.

yep you crossed your finger your buddy knew where he was going because if he didnt 

it was goodbuy for that adventure and welcome to another completly unforseen adventure 

and with the old drinker in eq now giving you a chance to prove your self in classic everquest and that fact eq is one of the only game that play smoothly on netbook make it a very nice game

Originally posted by Gintoh

       Everyday I come on here and here some guy talking about how superior UO or EQ is then modern mmo's and they are, but it looks better all these years afterwards. The fact is NO mmo has ever been what the genre should and easily could be. I think people like the idea of mmo's, not mmo's.

So what is it the EQ/UO community should know about MMOs?

What that MMOs should be soloable like most newer MMOs? That the game is about the loot/gold/level? That MMOs are not about the community or the RP? UO/EQ players will tell you MMOs are about grouping/community and the loot was usually and exciting bonus.

You are right...no MMO has ever been what the genre should or could be....but UO and EQ were the closest thing to what it should be. Since then we have been spiraling towards single player games with a monthly sub.

The core design of UO was far superior to anything after it.  EQ core design was easier for the masses to understand and has since been copied.  Too bad. :(

Originally posted by tillamook

Cool story bro!

This.

Also, the Game.

"Something every EQ or UO vet should know. " That AC was just as big and is also still running, just saying.

 I"ve always hoped someone would simply come up with a better version of UO, big sandbox world, skill based ( that actuaklly worked well, sorry Darkfall, but you suck), with lots of things to do in it. In UO, you could craft, save up for a house, build and decorate it,,PvP. help out other players as an anti-pk  or give newbs or guildmates good starting equipment (because there wasn't anything ridiculous in place like bind on equip), or be the pk, run a little business, rp. hold events like archery tournaments, merchant caravans, dungeon crawls that anyone could attend ( ahh fond memories of Catskills ), own a boat and go fishing, or look for treasure maps, rp a pirate,or an orc,  etc..

 It's not just nostalgia. Game designers for today's mmo simply aim lower.Once they found out that by going for the lowest common denominator, they could make huge piles of cash, it was all over.

 I mean, seriously can you call clicking on an npc then following the red dot on a radar ( or the big x or circle) a quest?No problem solving, no skill, it's all just busy work till you get the next "ding" .

 I realise that a game like UO nowadays would be a "niche" game, that it wouldn't do WoW numbers, but man I'd pay a premium price to play that game if it was done well and worked.

 It's funny back in the UO/EQ/AC days, our guild would talk about how much more advanced these games would be in ten years or more.And here we are 10 years later and the mmos ( just the fact they're called mmo instead of MMORPG is telling) have gotten prettier but dumber and more shallow.

 Remember when we all thought that future games would almost have to have things like player/guild housing and good character customisation?Then here comes WoW with its Saturday morning cartoon graphics, no housing, and all lvl xx class x characters look almost exactly the same as every other lvl x class x character.

 I think the backwards progression that hurts most though is how the agmes since have catered to selfish anti community gameplay.In the older games we didn't need things like greed rolls to sort things out, the games were such that players needed and depended on each other. People helped each other whether it was for equipment, protection in a new or dangerous area from monsters or pks, or just comeraderie. In our guild on Cats all you had to do was jump in the guild chat channel and ask for some help in reparing your armor, or shout out that you just died in some dungeon, or that Fu Manchu or some other pk was running around in moonglow, or just ask if anyone wanted to do a run through Shame dungeon,etc..

 The current games really encourage selfish,greedy antisocial gameplay.

 It just makes me sad.

I still think the newness of mmos played a much larger part of the feeling old games had as opposed to their sweet game designs.  

Going one step further I would say that mmos back then heavily appealed to one demographic and most people were very like minded and tolerated certain gameplay features. 

Neither of those aspects are ever going to come back. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

I still think the newness of mmos played a much larger part of the feeling old games had as opposed to their sweet game designs.  

Going one step further I would say that mmos back then heavily appealed to one demographic and most people were very like minded and tolerated certain gameplay features. 

 

Neither of those aspects are ever going to come back. 

You're right and nope, people won't tolerate gameplay like old MMOs, just like they won't tolerate Space Invaders or Doom.  It might seem cute or nostolgic, but no one is going to pay for it.

Originally posted by Daffid011

I still think the newness of mmos played a much larger part of the feeling old games had as opposed to their sweet game designs.  

Going one step further I would say that mmos back then heavily appealed to one demographic and most people were very like minded and tolerated certain gameplay features. 

 

Neither of those aspects are ever going to come back. 

Not entirely true.  UO offered many more features then any game since.  It definitely had it's flaws but no game since has offered more game play styles.

Originally posted by markfromindy

 I"ve always hoped someone would simply come up with a better version of UO, big sandbox world, skill based ( that actuaklly worked well, sorry Darkfall, but you suck), with lots of things to do in it. In UO, you could craft, save up for a house, build and decorate it,,PvP. help out other players as an anti-pk  or give newbs or guildmates good starting equipment (because there wasn't anything ridiculous in place like bind on equip), or be the pk, run a little business, rp. hold events like archery tournaments, merchant caravans, dungeon crawls that anyone could attend ( ahh fond memories of Catskills ), own a boat and go fishing, or look for treasure maps, rp a pirate,or an orc,  etc..

 It's not just nostalgia. Game designers for today's mmo simply aim lower.Once they found out that by going for the lowest common denominator, they could make huge piles of cash, it was all over.

 I mean, seriously can you call clicking on an npc then following the red dot on a radar ( or the big x or circle) a quest?No problem solving, no skill, it's all just busy work till you get the next "ding" .

 I realise that a game like UO nowadays would be a "niche" game, that it wouldn't do WoW numbers, but man I'd pay a premium price to play that game if it was done well and worked.

 It's funny back in the UO/EQ/AC days, our guild would talk about how much more advanced these games would be in ten years or more.And here we are 10 years later and the mmos ( just the fact they're called mmo instead of MMORPG is telling) have gotten prettier but dumber and more shallow.

 Remember when we all thought that future games would almost have to have things like player/guild housing and good character customisation?Then here comes WoW with its Saturday morning cartoon graphics, no housing, and all lvl xx class x characters look almost exactly the same as every other lvl x class x character.

 I think the backwards progression that hurts most though is how the agmes since have catered to selfish anti community gameplay.In the older games we didn't need things like greed rolls to sort things out, the games were such that players needed and depended on each other. People helped each other whether it was for equipment, protection in a new or dangerous area from monsters or pks, or just comeraderie. In our guild on Cats all you had to do was jump in the guild chat channel and ask for some help in reparing your armor, or shout out that you just died in some dungeon, or that Fu Manchu or some other pk was running around in moonglow, or just ask if anyone wanted to do a run through Shame dungeon,etc..

 The current games really encourage selfish,greedy antisocial gameplay.

 It just makes me sad.

Absolutely fucking nailed it.

All Im feeling right now is a deepdown nerdrage at just how shit this industry has become. Fuck sake.

*edit* Ive read your post twice now, hits deep inside man. Good work.

Originally posted by Venger

 

Not entirely true.  UO offered many more features then any game since.  It definitely had it's flaws but no game since has offered more game play styles.

And how many of those features are actually considered gameplay by most people?   How many have been replaced with basic passive features we see today?  Name some.  Remember, If it invovles Rping,thats not a feature.

There were some things I loved about EQ, and some things I hated.

If bugged boat rides and corpse runs make a game fun to you, then I just pity you. Those are not my fondest memories of EQ.

Exploration, meeting new people, and achieving goals that weren't trivial is what I enjoyed.

Originally posted by Azureal

Originally posted by markfromindy

 I"ve always hoped someone would simply come up with a better version of UO, big sandbox world, skill based ( that actuaklly worked well, sorry Darkfall, but you suck), with lots of things to do in it. In UO, you could craft, save up for a house, build and decorate it,,PvP. help out other players as an anti-pk  or give newbs or guildmates good starting equipment (because there wasn't anything ridiculous in place like bind on equip), or be the pk, run a little business, rp. hold events like archery tournaments, merchant caravans, dungeon crawls that anyone could attend ( ahh fond memories of Catskills ), own a boat and go fishing, or look for treasure maps, rp a pirate,or an orc,  etc..

 It's not just nostalgia. Game designers for today's mmo simply aim lower.Once they found out that by going for the lowest common denominator, they could make huge piles of cash, it was all over.

 I mean, seriously can you call clicking on an npc then following the red dot on a radar ( or the big x or circle) a quest?No problem solving, no skill, it's all just busy work till you get the next "ding" .

 I realise that a game like UO nowadays would be a "niche" game, that it wouldn't do WoW numbers, but man I'd pay a premium price to play that game if it was done well and worked.

 It's funny back in the UO/EQ/AC days, our guild would talk about how much more advanced these games would be in ten years or more.And here we are 10 years later and the mmos ( just the fact they're called mmo instead of MMORPG is telling) have gotten prettier but dumber and more shallow.

 Remember when we all thought that future games would almost have to have things like player/guild housing and good character customisation?Then here comes WoW with its Saturday morning cartoon graphics, no housing, and all lvl xx class x characters look almost exactly the same as every other lvl x class x character.

 I think the backwards progression that hurts most though is how the agmes since have catered to selfish anti community gameplay.In the older games we didn't need things like greed rolls to sort things out, the games were such that players needed and depended on each other. People helped each other whether it was for equipment, protection in a new or dangerous area from monsters or pks, or just comeraderie. In our guild on Cats all you had to do was jump in the guild chat channel and ask for some help in reparing your armor, or shout out that you just died in some dungeon, or that Fu Manchu or some other pk was running around in moonglow, or just ask if anyone wanted to do a run through Shame dungeon,etc..

 The current games really encourage selfish,greedy antisocial gameplay.

 It just makes me sad.

 

I very rarely reply to things like this. But damn dude, you hit it right on the head.  I especially hate that all the quests now a days in any mmo are so simple and no need to figure anything out.

.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Venger

 

Not entirely true.  UO offered many more features then any game since.  It definitely had it's flaws but no game since has offered more game play styles.

 

And how many of those features are actually considered gameplay by most people?   How many have been replaced with basic passive features we see today?  Name some.  Remember, If it invovles Rping,thats not a feature.

Features was probably not the best word, paths would fit better.  You could be a fisherman, you could me a crafts person, you could hunt, you could steal, there was more to UO that log on and kill things.  Not that logging on and killing things still wasn't a big part of UO by there were so many more ways to do it.  UO had variety in character development and places to hunt compared to most mmo since.  You can't do that in current mmo.

My love of UO is 1 part nostalgia 1 part UO offered more then most mmo since.

Originally posted by brostyn

There were some things I loved about EQ, and some things I hated.

If bugged boat rides and corpse runs make a game fun to you, then I just pity you. Those are not my fondest memories of EQ.

 

Exploration, meeting new people, and achieving goals that weren't trivial is what I enjoyed.

forget the bug one secopnd lol,thery mean the idea of the game were good .

true a buggy game suck ,but hell back then if you could count to 3 with your computer you had a speed demon lol

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Venger

 

Not entirely true.  UO offered many more features then any game since.  It definitely had it's flaws but no game since has offered more game play styles.

 

And how many of those features are actually considered gameplay by most people?   How many have been replaced with basic passive features we see today?  Name some.  Remember, If it invovles Rping,thats not a feature.

You can flip that various ways (edited for clarity)... Ask a PvP player how much of a modern mmo is "game play".  Heck open the can of worms and ask a UO PvP player about current "gameplay" on every level including pvp.

When UO was still young "most people" would have thought it was all gameplay.  So your question wouldn't have worked out to well in 1997.. 98.. as examples.

In 2009 when a game like WoW even in North America alone has 5 times the player base... most people didn't even play UO..  and as such don't even have the ability to speak on the game with personal experience.  They can't play it now.. because its not the game it was.

Its like asking "if we took the core group of UO players and asked them about WoW .. would most of them consider it has more gamply than UO.." 

Its easy to load things in any paticular manner you wish to.

The market is bigger now .. but the question or the "idea" as I see it is about game development.

Game development is now on the path of "ez mode development" that is why choice is taken away.  That is why MMO's start to follow the linear story teller path.  Its an attempt to remove "random" and make it easier to design things to "work as intended".

The only thing WoW (or most any modern MMO) can offer me over UO is Quests.  Plain and simple.

Any similar system to earlier MMO's has been chopped down and steamlined.. with options taken away.

Many early "ideals" were simply removed all together.

This doesn't mean UO was better than game X.. or that eq is better than game X.. or that WoW isn't as good.

It certainly does mean you get a lot LESS in todays games.

Just a point of view.... (which doesn't make yours wrong.. but I don't agree with it).

Originally posted by Gameloading

I think a lot of it has to do with nostalgia. Playing an MMORPG for the first time is a very special feeling. Almost overwhelming, knowing that every person you meet is a real person. A new player and a person who experienced an MMORPG before approach a new mmorpg in very different ways.To a person who never played an mmorpg before, an mmo might seem like an experience with endless possibilities and no limits. You probably have no idea what kind of things can be done in the game and you just pick the class that sounds fun to you, having no idea what "tank" or "dps" means. you just explore the world and try different things to discover more of the game, all while being impressed you're part of a world with thousands of real players.

The experienced mmorpg player on the other hand will first visit multiple websites to check the skills to pick a class, plan skill tree if necessary, log into the game and looking for his first quest, wondering when he is going to get his first skill and if he gets more XP by going solo or grouping up.

That's why a lot of players play really bad games such as Runescape and Tibia. That's not because these games are oh so amazing, they do so because they still have that "magic feeling" of playing an mmorpg for the first time.

Not even close... for me...

UO was a wide open world, that could be explored from head to toe.. It was brutal, it was exciting, it was a living breathing world, where you made your own armor and weapons, where you sold them from vendors in your house. Where folks made "musuems" in their houses, from the most odd things. RP was thriving, guilds held "events" for the entire server to take part in.

Folks built player towns, communities were formed.

Reds and PKs would plan nights to attack these player made towns, and the defense alarms were sounded (typically through icq). Hacoc ensued...

To me UO was carebear, and hardcore all rolled into one.. It was a crafters dream, it was a pvpers haven, RPers flourished, soloers could partake in almost any facet of the game as well as groupers... It was a living breathing world.

Was it perfect? No.  But there was so many aspects to the game, that any type of player could enjoy it.

Todays games seem closed off.. From instances, to lock out timers, to gear disparity... from the haves, and have nots.. The zones.. to character classes, and levels... perhaps its just me, but i feel very confined.

Originally posted by Venger

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Venger

 

Not entirely true.  UO offered many more features then any game since.  It definitely had it's flaws but no game since has offered more game play styles.

 

And how many of those features are actually considered gameplay by most people?   How many have been replaced with basic passive features we see today?  Name some.  Remember, If it invovles Rping,thats not a feature.

 

Features was probably not the best word, paths would fit better.  You could be a fisherman, you could me a crafts person, you could hunt, you could steal, there was more to UO that log on and kill things.  Not that logging on and killing things still wasn't a big part of UO by there were so many more ways to do it.  UO had variety in character development and places to hunt compared to most mmo since.  You can't do that in current mmo.

My love of UO is 1 part nostalgia 1 part UO offered more then most mmo since.

Most of those features can be found in many other games.  Perhaps not in the same combination, but UO is also missing many features that other mmos offer in return. 

Don't get me wrong, I loved UO.  More for the people than anything else.  The game was fun.  Some of it was the sandbox design, but most of it was the community and the absolute newness of it all.

The problem with UO, was that is too was made in a different time by a different breed of developers.  People who were raised by rolling dice and using imagination, graph paper, minatures and a handful of rulebooks. 

That has been replaced by "devs" who grew up with trading card games and playstations. 

There is good and bad to both, but there just are not enough people who could possibly design a social sandbox mmo anymore.  Fewer still are companies that might take that chance.  I have no issue with theme park games, but there should be more social sandbox games as well. 

To bad the companies managing the only 2 decent ones didn't do the best job managing them to show their potential. 

 one of the biggest issue that stop lot of dev from doing various stuff ingame are bot and gold digger

check this exemple

silkroad online could not hop on that game any hour of the day for years not month years

oup suddenly you can

not a bit!i mena all server you can log on not one server is red did 

silkroad do what they ve been saying they would do to bot and gold digger maybe 

but it sound awfully more like farmer decided to go to aion

if thats what happen aion will be full but for the wrong reason lol

i was so surprised lol tyo see i could finally go in silkroad online 

but my question!

WHERE DID THOSE FARMER AND BOTTER FREAKING GO?