Why do people keep calling this game sandbox?

I'm stealing part of this from a LF Game post

1) OPEN WORLD - Most important, and really the only game-breaker. I'm not a dog needing to be led around on a leash.

Clearly Fallen Earth has a large world. It has hundreds of quests just like every theme park.

2) PLAYER DRIVEN WORLD - City building, economy, crafting, lore, etc.

No city building here. Conflict town control akin to say...Warhammer, but more grindy (repeatable quests) Control grants you access to vendors.

Economy? Not sure how that is strictly sandbox.

Crafting. Pretty damn deep, lots of materials required. End of the day there is no variability Recipe X always produces the exact same item X. It is my understanding in sandbox games materials, skill, etc affect item outcome (see Ryzom, Mortal Online)

Lore. Eh, not a sandbox prereq.

3) SKILL BASED - No classes/great variety of classes. Ultimately, your skills should define your capabilities.

I guess this is key to a sandbox. Question I have is if all skills are limited to Combat/Crafting how is that any more sandbox than say Champions Online?

4-7 not relevant.l

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It's my understanding sandbox implies that you can affect the world in a permanent manner (housing, building structures, towns). Games like Wurm Online, Darkfall, etc. have these characteristics. Fallen Earth has nothing that really changes with player interaction except Conflict Town control, which many Theme Park type games have.

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Anywho, I really am curious. I'm assuming that games fall on a scale from 0 to 10 with 0 being Theme Park and 10 being sandbox and people assume it falls closer to 10?

I think people see all the clamoring for a sandbox game, and like to point to their MMO of choice, and try to capitalize on that, if there's even a single sandbox-like element to it.  I remember people trying to say Vanguard was a sandbox, too.

As I see it, the common element to all sandbox games is that characters can focus extensively and exclusively on crafting, resource gathering OR combat / adventuring.  That "OR" is vital.  Does the gameplay support the role of a miner, scavenger, or weaponsmith?  Or are those just things my adventurer can dabble in?  Is it honestly viable enough to be a choice many players will make?

I think those are the sorts of choices that make a game feel open, that make a player feel they have the choices to develop different types of characters.  Maybe I was missing something, but in FE, I didn't really feel like I could make a character that just hangs out in town crafting.  Or runs around the wasteland scavenging.  I could, kinda sorta, but those aspects of the game would need to be fleshed out more, to involve more activity from the player, and development options for the character.   Not to mention needing to be more rewarding.  Can a crafter make it to S5, just by crafting?  

Otherwise they just feel tacked on to the adventurer gameplay, negating any real sandbox feel the game would otherwise have.

I think (without having played it) that the crafting system has been sold as a sandbox system..

While being a sandbox FE does have certain limitations similar to Ryzom.

First, this game isn't a totally pvp focused FFA game.

Secondly, for some reason Quests mean something in this game. While being Optional you will have trouble finding people not doing them.

The crafting, skill system and large open world are enough to call this a sandbox but some of the other features are more Hybrid.

If you had a scale with sandbox on one side and themepark on another after tossing all the features on the scale would slightly side with the sandbox.

I feel overtime more and more options and features will be given to the players (housing is on the way) so as time goes on it will be clear that the game is a sandbox game.

Saying a sandbox game needs territorial pvp and no quests is wrong. All sandbox games have missions and certain games aren't pvp focused like Eve and DF.

Originally posted by metalhead980

The crafting, skill system and large open world are enough to call this a sandbox but some of the other features are more Hybrid.

What is it about the crafting that's more like sandbox games than the crafting in most themepark games?  

How is the world any more large or open than other themepark games?  

Granted, it is a skill-based game, and that is usually an element of sandbox games, but it's not what makes them sandbox games.  You could take out the class system in WoW and replace it with a skill system, and it'd still just be a themepark, wouldn't it?  The old SWG was more sandbox than themepark, and it used more of a dual class system than a skill system.  Asheron's Call used skills instead of classes, and it wasnt a sandbox at all.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by metalhead980

The crafting, skill system and large open world are enough to call this a sandbox but some of the other features are more Hybrid.

 

What is it about the crafting that's more like sandbox games than the crafting in most themepark games?  

How is the world any more large or open than other themepark games?  

Granted, it is a skill-based game, and that is usually an element of sandbox games, but it's not what makes them sandbox games.  You could replace the class system in WoW and replace it with a skill system, and it'd just be a themepark, wouldn't it?  The old SWG was more sandbox than themepark, and it used more of a dual class system than a skill system.  Asheron's Call used skills instead of classes, and it wasnt a sandbox at all.

 

Its not the mechanic of crafting its the affect crafting has on a game. In the themepark game Crafting is just a small peice of it. As you progress raid and dungeon drops become superior and crafting takes a back seat. In a sandbox game crafting is nearly everything. I beliebe 90-95% of all items in fallen earth are craftable.

Fallen earth is a very large game, it could honestly take you days to see everything. In a sandbox game the world means more than anything else. We have roaming bosses, non-instanced dungeons and more. In a themepark while they may also have roaming bosses the focus is on "endgame" once you get to endgame the mmo is no longer about the world. It turns into a Raid or instanced pvp meta game.

In a sandbox game the world is important on day one until you finally stop playing. Something not even the loyal fans of Vanguard could say about their game.

As far as skill systems go theres a difference between a total class system in a themepark and one in a sandbox. In a themepark you usually progress on a preset path to end level with little choice other than a talent spec.

While certain sandbox games and Hybrids (AO, AC) have classes those classes all have skill systems under the hood something no themepark has. these skill systems give you much more flexability with your character than a basic themepark would give you.

You seem to think certain Hybrid games are themeparks and that's not right. The popular Hybrids on the market are AO and AC atm. while sandbox games are UO,Eve,DF,FE,Ryzom, Worm and a few others.

A hybrid is a mix of both where the complete features of the game keep that all important scale dead in the middle.

GJ metalhead90..

This about sums it up.

Sandbox = constant fighting in a persistent world for control and everything you do in game has a outcome.

Theme park = Get to end game and do raid bosses and grind out BG's for gear and weapons as well. There is no persistent open world outcome that effects the game.

Thanks y'all. I've been mistaken before, and it seems I am again. =)

Originally posted by metalhead980

While certain sandbox games and Hybrids (AO, AC) have classes those classes all have skill systems under the hood something no themepark has. these skill systems give you much more flexability with your character than a basic themepark would give you.

I don't exactly buy that. I played AO, AC and WoW and I felt there was more customization in WoW than there was in either AC or AO. Talent specs alone made far more difference in "day to day" combat and play style than whether or not you, for instance, put more points into one skill or another as a Doctor in AO.

I'm not arguing about what is a sandbox. I just wanted to say I don't buy the argument that a skill system makes a sandbox because you have "more choice" - when I see almost the exact opposite. I've done PvP in UO and WoW. I see hundreds of varieties of opponents in WoW (class specs plus their trade skill like engineering) while PvP in UO involved fighting maybe 5-6 different types of opponents.

sandbox was about the talents, skills. Games like

AC, SWG you could put points into whatever talent you wanted, an unarmed  lifemage. Many of todays  games give you very little choice as to what your character will do.  you level you get skill A, or A1, then you get an option to modify this a bit.

Originally posted by TekDragon

Originally posted by metalhead980

While certain sandbox games and Hybrids (AO, AC) have classes those classes all have skill systems under the hood something no themepark has. these skill systems give you much more flexibility with your character than a basic themepark would give you.

 

I don't exactly buy that. I played AO, AC and WoW and I felt there was more customization in WoW than there was in either AC or AO. Talent specs alone made far more difference in "day to day" combat and play style than whether or not you, for instance, put more points into one skill or another as a Doctor in AO.

I'm not arguing about what is a sandbox. I just wanted to say I don't buy the argument that a skill system makes a sandbox because you have "more choice" - when I see almost the exact opposite. I've done PvP in UO and WoW. I see hundreds of varieties of opponents in WoW (class specs plus their trade skill like engineering) while PvP in UO involved fighting maybe 5-6 different types of opponents.

Ok, In WoW i pick one class with three possible specs. If WoW was a hybrid or Sandbox game I would basically have every spell and ability overtime to create a mash up of the 10 classes and hundreds of skills with only one character.

If you don't see the flexibility in a sandbox or hybrid system I don't know what to tell you.

Even a game like AO with a simple skill system under the hood gave you way more than three hardcoded options with one class.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Ok, In WoW i pick one class with three possible specs. If WoW was a hybrid or Sandbox game I would basically have every spell and ability overtime to create a mash up of the 10 classes and hundreds of skills with only one character.

If you don't see the flexibility in a sandbox or hybrid system I don't know what to tell you.

Even a game like AO with a simple skill system under the hood gave you way more than three hardcoded options with one class.

most skill systems don't offer the variety of distinctive interesting mechanics that class systems do.  so skill based games usually feel like everyone is just slight variations of the same zerging character type.  like in fallen earth, pistols vs rifles aren't as much of a difference as, say, rangers vs wizards.

which isn't a limitation of skill system vs class system, so much as devs just not being very creative.

Originally posted by Preta

Originally posted by metalhead980

Ok, In WoW i pick one class with three possible specs. If WoW was a hybrid or Sandbox game I would basically have every spell and ability overtime to create a mash up of the 10 classes and hundreds of skills with only one character.

If you don't see the flexibility in a sandbox or hybrid system I don't know what to tell you.

Even a game like AO with a simple skill system under the hood gave you way more than three hardcoded options with one class.

 

most skill systems don't offer the variety of distinctive interesting mechanics that class systems do.  so skill based games usually feel like everyone is just slight variations of the same zerging character type.  like in fallen earth, pistols vs rifles aren't as much of a difference as, say, rangers vs wizards.

which isn't a limitation of skill system vs class system, so much as devs just not being very creative.

You're right. Like in Fallen Earth, a full mutant vs a rfileman isn't the same thing as say... wizard vs ranger.

Oh wait nvm.... it is!

Well, except the wizard is just a wizard, but the mutant can be a rifleman, crafter, group buffer, pistoleer, tank, range healer, combat medic, or melee guy too. You really can't tell for sure till he pops off that first flashy skill that gives him away............ but most of the flashy skills are mutant skills.......... so ummm.......... you're SoL I guess?

Originally posted by TheHatter

You're right. Like in Fallen Earth, a full mutant vs a rfileman isn't the same thing as say... wizard vs ranger.

 

Oh wait nvm.... it is!

Well, except the wizard is just a wizard, but the mutant can be a rifleman, crafter, group buffer, pistoleer, tank, range healer, combat medic, or melee guy too. You really can't tell for sure till he pops off that first flashy skill that gives him away............ but most of the flashy skills are mutant skills.......... so ummm.......... you're SoL I guess?

you got me, i dont really know the character system that well.  just the early levels, where mutant skills dont really enter into it, yet.  maybe thats part of the problem.  goes back to first impression fe makes being so weak.

so some characters will specialize in mutations, others in weapon skills, others in crafting, and that sort of thing?  or it more like, everyone will dabble in everything?

Originally posted by Preta

Originally posted by TheHatter

You're right. Like in Fallen Earth, a full mutant vs a rfileman isn't the same thing as say... wizard vs ranger.

 

Oh wait nvm.... it is!

Well, except the wizard is just a wizard, but the mutant can be a rifleman, crafter, group buffer, pistoleer, tank, range healer, combat medic, or melee guy too. You really can't tell for sure till he pops off that first flashy skill that gives him away............ but most of the flashy skills are mutant skills.......... so ummm.......... you're SoL I guess?

 

you got me, i dont really know the character system that well.  just the early levels, where mutant skills dont really enter into it, yet.  maybe thats part of the problem.  goes back to first impression fe makes being so weak.

 

so some characters will specialize in mutations, others in weapon skills, others in crafting, and that sort of thing?  or it more like, everyone will dabble in everything?

 

You were actually partially right, I just didn't like your comparison :). I think of FE as being a classless class based system. You COULD dabble in everything, but you're just going to suck at everything. The way I've figured it to be, if you make 45 with 100 or so extra AP you can specialize in 2.5 classes.

Such as me, I'm Pistoleer/Crafter/PVP, the PVP is the .5 because I can't get all my tanking abilities up as far as they can go, but it should give me the edge and I'll still be able to stay alive. I'm also throwing a few points into a single Mutation (I have all but Patho & Primal though), but only 6 or 8 (I forget) points into Wisdom, so I can't max out my mutation. So, maybe it would be 2.75 classes?

Idk, it's a little complicated. Which imho is great. I love seeing "How's my build?" posts on the FE Forums.

www.globaltechplanner.info/

 ^You need that, if you haven't seen it yet.

You could probably compare it to GW before the expansions I guess. When you could still build your own class by combining 2 classes, but usually only 2 classes worked really well together... but every once and awhile someone found a mix that just rocked. Granted, you simply PICKED your 2 classes there and didn't build them up, but in the end it's fairly close.

The only link to sandbox that FE has is that it's set in the sand. Other than that, it has classes, levels and an overarching quest line to guide the player from subscription to cancellation. It's theme all the way. There is no element where the player can just wing it and be successful. You visit a 3rd party character planer, and grind your GPS, voice guided path to glory. Big don't make sandbox.

Originally posted by Timzilla

The only link to sandbox that FE has is that it's set in the sand. Other than that, it has classes, levels and an overarching quest line to guide the player from subscription to cancellation. It's theme all the way. There is no element where the player can just wing it and be successful. You visit a 3rd party character planer, and grind your GPS, voice guided path to glory. Big don't make sandbox.

You sure you're talking about FE?

Theme Park games lead you from A to B, from starting area to final raid boss.

FE gives you the option of following a quest chain, but you really dont have to follow it if you wish not to. Sandbox games can and do have quests. Quests are not just part of the Theme Park MMO.

Sandbox does not mean 'Cannot share anything with a theme park style game'

Originally posted by Timzilla

There is no element where the player can just wing it and be successful.

Name one thing in the entire world where you can "Wing it and be successful" & still fits a sandbox setting (IRL Included). Seriously. Please do. I want to hear it.

Sure, you can roll a pair of dice and get 12 and win a million bucks. That's not "winging it" that's luck. And by that, you could most certainly do that in FE.

You know what games work well at "just winging it" with the ability to be successful? Themeparks.

You're a horrible trolling.

Originally posted by Timzilla

The only link to sandbox that FE has is that it's set in the sand. Other than that, it has classes, levels and an overarching quest line to guide the player from subscription to cancellation. It's theme all the way. There is no element where the player can just wing it and be successful. You visit a 3rd party character planer, and grind your GPS, voice guided path to glory. Big don't make sandbox.

you have zero idea what you are talking about....zero. I know you re on the troll crusade to stir as much shite as possible but just find a new game to troll or at least one you played

Because compared to any of the other damn crappy piss poor excuses for a decent mmo that has been released lately it's the nearest thing we can get for now.