*sigh*

I've been looking for it ever since UO. I've played several theme-park style MMOs as well as the occasional attempt at a sandbox world since 2001, but nothing has been what I'm seeking. I want freedom; I don't want the next "new" MMO that looks eerily similar to World of Warcraft and the multitude of games that are using it's simple, effective and restricting design. That doesn't mean adding flashy new graphics, a few new mechanics, RvR or even a deep story. I want a game I can enjoy from the beginning, not something I have to grind all the way through to "endgame" to really start playing. If I have to work for a couple weeks/months before I can enjoy what I'm spending money on, why? Why would I do that? How do I even know if the endgame is worth it? If it takes me two months to finally get to the endgame, not only have I spent the $50 bucks for the product code and the first month of play, I've also spent an additional $15 for the second month. If I haven't really enjoyed playing the game, have I really gotten $65 worth of entertainment? I've wasted more than my share the past few years on games that simply did not live up to my desires, and I don't intend to waste anymore of my hard-earned cash on something that makes me regret.

The thing is, I'm not really concerned so much with questlines, levels, classes, or the latest and greatest gear. I want a world where YOU as the player create your own story, and not just for an advertising statement. One of the things I miss most about UO is the books; there were literally authors writing short stories and articles and whatnot there. Player-built towns and cities were thriving commercial districts, complete with festivals and events. People would play together for hours, yet not the first word was mentioned about, "Hey, have you heard that the next expansion is coming out? That means we'll have to re-grind for more gear. Lovely." I know, I know. UO isn't "dead." The game is still running, so some may ask why I don't just go back. Well, for the same reason so many of you won't return to SWG. It's just not the same game anymore. The community, which was the whole reason to play, has splintered and scattered all over.

As far as PvP, I prefer it. I can live without it so long as the community and general gameplay are engaging, but it is one of my favorite things about this genre. There's nothing like testing your skill against an opponent with an equal desire and superior ability to defeat you. Plus there's always a new challenge awaiting you here even if you have nothing else to pursue. I'm not particular about the depth of this level of combat, though I must say full loot is a realistic approach that I enjoy. However, this specifically draws a crowd of undesirables, so I can take it or leave it. If the sandbox has PvP, though, it better have purpose. There should be a reason to go to war; war itself is an insufficient motivation. Give me something to defend, something to capture, something to disrupt. Battles should not be fought just for the sake of fighting.

Okay, so here's the summary:

1) OPEN WORLD - Most important, and really the only game-breaker. I'm not a dog needing to be led around on a leash.

2) PLAYER DRIVEN WORLD - City building, economy, crafting, lore, etc.

3) SKILL BASED - No classes/great variety of classes. Ultimately, your skills should define your capabilities.

4) MATURE COMMUNITY - There's always a bad apple or three, but the majority should know what responsibility is.

5) DECENT GRAPHICS - I'm not expecting Crysis here, but if you bring me South Park we'll have words. Full-on realism.

6) LORE - I'm a roleplayer at heart, and I need something to get me started. Show me that your world has life.

7) PvP - As I said, this is not a game-breaker, so long as the rest of the game holds up remarkably.

MO is probably the closest thing to what you're looking for. Or at least as it's promised, it's closest. It's in beta atm.

Ryzom has most of what you're looking for except it might be light on PvP. It has it, it's just much more focused on PvE. For PvP, there are outpost wars which are basically battles over resources. Guilds control the various outposts. Your guild or group of guilds can declare war on an outpost, and the defending guild has a certain number of hours before the siege begins. The defenders can also have other guilds help defend. And any neutral passers-by are asked if they want to attack or defend or just watch. If the attackers have defeated the defenders, they must then successfully defend it against the former defenders. If they can do that, then the attackers now control the OP. Otherwise the OP stays under the control of the defenders. Sounds a little complicated, but it's not.

You can also fight other players anywhere in the world if you and they are PvP flagged.

Also, I'm not sure what exactly you're wanting graphics-wise. Ryzom is 5 years old, but it's graphics still look decent on high settings. It's no AoC or LotRO, but it's not bad either.

And with a 3 week trial, it's at least worth kicking the tires.

You should check out Fallen Earth.

Okay, so here's the summary:

1) OPEN WORLD - Most important, and really the only game-breaker. I'm not a dog needing to be led around on a leash.

In Wurm Online, you arrive at the starting town, their is a guide to help you with basics on how to play the game, but if you want (and most people do) you can just go out in to the other side of the world, but watch out for bears ;))

2) PLAYER DRIVEN WORLD - City building, economy, crafting, lore, etc.

In Wurm Online, the roads and the earth you stand on is decided by players (Players can build roads and terraform land), you can make a little house for yourself, or join a massive village with many players doing crazy projects! EVERYTHING, and I mean everything, is decided by players, from the shape of the earth, to where roads go, and to what items are made.

3) SKILL BASED - No classes/great variety of classes. Ultimately, your skills should define your capabilities.

In Wurm Online, you have no classes. You have a list of skills, and if you want, you can max them all (Good luck, its impossible maxing even one). You can become a dedicated woodcutter, a more versatile smith practicing all of the different smiths (Weaponsmith, Blacksmith, Jewelsmith, Locksmith), to simply a Jack of All Trades!

4) MATURE COMMUNITY - There's always a bad apple or three, but the majority should know what responsibility is.

Wurm Online hosts the most maturest community I have played, in ANY Game. The players are usually adults, although children are also playing, ie, me. And any question/request will be solved in seconds!

5) DECENT GRAPHICS - I'm not expecting Crysis here, but if you bring me South Park we'll have words. Full-on realism.

The game is realistic theme, no WoW. IF your computer can handle it, you can get draw distances that reach miles away, making it hours just to reach a place you see. i38.photobucket.com/albums/e149/thesneakster/wurm200907151950.png To reach a mountain in the backround, expect a ~2 hours journey.

6) LORE - I'm a roleplayer at heart, and I need something to get me started. Show me that your world has life.

People have events, coming together and doing alot of stuff, however, as I'm not a roleplayer, I didnt do much, so I cant go into detail. The wild server, people can raid each other, and create hystory, and is ALL judged by players!

7) PvP - As I said, this is not a game-breaker, so long as the rest of the game holds up remarkably.

Wurm Online has 3 servers, soon to be 4. Golden Valley (F2P server, to get started and feel the game, no PVP.) Freedom (P2P server, No PVP, mainly for crafters and hunters who like to build and make stuff and live peacefully.) and Wild (P2P server, PVP, for warriors, who like to have wars and love PVP. Kingdoms fights are not judges by the creator saying "Fight starts Wednsday 10:00PM GMT", but the players of each kingdom discuss themselves when to launch a suprise attack.

Honestly mate, you had the EXACT same request that I had, word to word, and since I fell in love with Wurm So much, im sure you will! If you need any help, PM me!

Originally posted by XredemptionX

Okay, so here's the summary:

1) OPEN WORLD - Most important, and really the only game-breaker. I'm not a dog needing to be led around on a leash.

In Wurm Online, you arrive at the starting town, their is a guide to help you with basics on how to play the game, but if you want (and most people do) you can just go out in to the other side of the world, but watch out for bears ;))

2) PLAYER DRIVEN WORLD - City building, economy, crafting, lore, etc.

In Wurm Online, the roads and the earth you stand on is decided by players (Players can build roads and terraform land), you can make a little house for yourself, or join a massive village with many players doing crazy projects! EVERYTHING, and I mean everything, is decided by players, from the shape of the earth, to where roads go, and to what items are made.

3) SKILL BASED - No classes/great variety of classes. Ultimately, your skills should define your capabilities.

In Wurm Online, you have no classes. You have a list of skills, and if you want, you can max them all (Good luck, its impossible maxing even one). You can become a dedicated woodcutter, a more versatile smith practicing all of the different smiths (Weaponsmith, Blacksmith, Jewelsmith, Locksmith), to simply a Jack of All Trades!

4) MATURE COMMUNITY - There's always a bad apple or three, but the majority should know what responsibility is.

Wurm Online hosts the most maturest community I have played, in ANY Game. The players are usually adults, although children are also playing, ie, me. And any question/request will be solved in seconds!

5) DECENT GRAPHICS - I'm not expecting Crysis here, but if you bring me South Park we'll have words. Full-on realism.

The game is realistic theme, no WoW. IF your computer can handle it, you can get draw distances that reach miles away, making it hours just to reach a place you see. i38.photobucket.com/albums/e149/thesneakster/wurm200907151950.png To reach a mountain in the backround, expect a ~2 hours journey.

6) LORE - I'm a roleplayer at heart, and I need something to get me started. Show me that your world has life.

People have events, coming together and doing alot of stuff, however, as I'm not a roleplayer, I didnt do much, so I cant go into detail. The wild server, people can raid each other, and create hystory, and is ALL judged by players!

7) PvP - As I said, this is not a game-breaker, so long as the rest of the game holds up remarkably.

Wurm Online has 3 servers, soon to be 4. Golden Valley (F2P server, to get started and feel the game, no PVP.) Freedom (P2P server, No PVP, mainly for crafters and hunters who like to build and make stuff and live peacefully.) and Wild (P2P server, PVP, for warriors, who like to have wars and love PVP. Kingdoms fights are not judges by the creator saying "Fight starts Wednsday 10:00PM GMT", but the players of each kingdom discuss themselves when to launch a suprise attack.

Honestly mate, you had the EXACT same request that I had, word to word, and since I fell in love with Wurm So much, im sure you will! If you need any help, PM me!

Looks like an interesting game.   How long has this game been on the market and what does it cost?   I know it says you can play for free, but I cant find any costs associated with this game for a premium membership on their site.

Is this a web based game?  Graphics look really blocky.

Edit:  NM, I found it.  $7.70 per month

---

Originally posted by Whitetree
 
Okay, so here's the summary:
1) OPEN WORLD - Most important, and really the only game-breaker. I'm not a dog needing to be led around on a leash.
2) PLAYER DRIVEN WORLD - City building, economy, crafting, lore, etc.
3) SKILL BASED - No classes/great variety of classes. Ultimately, your skills should define your capabilities.
4) MATURE COMMUNITY - There's always a bad apple or three, but the majority should know what responsibility is.
5) DECENT GRAPHICS - I'm not expecting Crysis here, but if you bring me South Park we'll have words. Full-on realism.
6) LORE - I'm a roleplayer at heart, and I need something to get me started. Show me that your world has life.
7) PvP - As I said, this is not a game-breaker, so long as the rest of the game holds up remarkably.

---

You kind of missed the most important part - what is the game supposed to be about? What should be the point of the game?

Have you already given EVE a try?  It has pretty much everything on your list, and I could elaborate, but not if you've already written it off.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Have you already given EVE a try?  It has pretty much everything on your list, and I could elaborate, but not if you've already written it off.

I agree, EVE Is definitely a game for you to look at. It's about the best sandbox right now. Entire player run economy, player made courier missions, players set bounties, big political system, mercs make thriving business, the lore is very deep and you'll find a decent roleplaying crowd. It's all skill based too and looks very good.

Entripia Universe might be one for you to check out, it's not subscription based but uses a Real Cash Economy, which means you buy the in game currency with real world currency, although it's definitely not a cash shop. A lot of people only put 10-15 dollars in a month, 10 bucks is definitely enough to get you started with a set of armor, a weapon, and ammunition (yes, you get money from things you kill, ore you mine, or things you craft. There's only one currency, so if you sell or buy something to another player it's using the same currency. This makes the game have a very tight, solid economy). I don't believe you can build a town (I may be wrong here) but players do run the economy (only very basic gear and ammo is available from an NPC), the game is also entirely skill based, very realistic sci-fi, no flashy spells... well, no spells at all. And it's beautiful, actually, if you don't want Crysis don't play this.... It uses CryENGINE 2, the same engine as Crysis. And it shows.

I have tried EVE, and it seems like a game I could like... but I would need a major boost at the beginning. Not as in, "Hey, can I has a free Battleship??" I mean, I need a corp. that will mentor me. It's economy is definitely top-notch, and the amazing variety in what you can do is unbelievable. Getting started is extremely overwhelming, though. Plus, high security space is nearly dead, and that seems like where you have to start until you get some skills built up.

There were a couple of drawbacks to EVE, too. Although its universe is absolutely HUGE, somehow it still felt linear. There is no free movement that I saw. You pick a destination, and then you fly to that destination. When you're doing the quests, you open your journal and select your destination then sit and wait until you arrive. Not exactly an engaging mechanic. Despite the variety of things to do, it felt like I was just jumping from station to station like I was jumping from quest hub to quest hub in any MMO out there.

There's also little immersion for an old-school RPGer like me. I missed having a character rather than a ship. I know for a lot of folks that doesn't make any difference at all, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Even though you get to pick a portrait in the beginning, it feels pointless. You might as well just design a robot, since there's no interaction between a player and his character at all.

I say all this having never had the opportunity to witness some of the massive-scale warfare you read in the headlines (which I thought were awesome. Having player events make the ticker news is an amazing feature.). I didn't even get the opportunity to try out the PvP. The crafting was a very complex system that I didn't get very deep into, but it seemed promising. All in all, it seemed like a very solid game and one I expect to outlive most, if not all, of the current MMOs. Sadly, though, I think I would get bored. I need immersion, vibrance, life, and a galaxy filled with space dust and lifeless spheres just doesn't seem to be elixir I seek. I really wish it was, because as you guys have said, EVE has most of what I'm looking for; it's just not bringing it all together in a way that I feel like I could enjoy. Maybe I'm just too picky...

Wurm Online sounds like it could be interesting, as does Ryzom. I've heard some mixed reviews about both, but I will definitely give these two a looksee. At the very least I'll visit the homesites and do a little research. Entropia is one I've heard very, very little about but I'll give it a peek too. Mortal Online is definitely holding my interest. It's oozing potential through my speakers, but how the devs manage to pull it off will determine everything. If a couple months after release (which I'm not expecting until 1st QTR 2010) shows MO to be the spiritual successor to UO, I'm totally there.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Whitetree
 
Okay, so here's the summary:
1) OPEN WORLD - Most important, and really the only game-breaker. I'm not a dog needing to be led around on a leash.
2) PLAYER DRIVEN WORLD - City building, economy, crafting, lore, etc.
3) SKILL BASED - No classes/great variety of classes. Ultimately, your skills should define your capabilities.
4) MATURE COMMUNITY - There's always a bad apple or three, but the majority should know what responsibility is.
5) DECENT GRAPHICS - I'm not expecting Crysis here, but if you bring me South Park we'll have words. Full-on realism.
6) LORE - I'm a roleplayer at heart, and I need something to get me started. Show me that your world has life.
7) PvP - As I said, this is not a game-breaker, so long as the rest of the game holds up remarkably.

---

 

You kind of missed the most important part - what is the game supposed to be about? What should be the point of the game?

This is the beautiful part of a truly open world; the players decide what the game is about. I don't need a big bad wolf (aka Lich King, Sauron, Shadow Lord, Demon King, etc.) that I MUST defeat or else the world will be destroyed. Haven't you had enough of saving the world? Give me real conflict, where Clan "%!&#" is taking over our forest and mines and my clan have to defend it or else lose gathering rights. Or how about a smaller scale, where these two player crafters have to deliver their resources to their home city so they can arm their militants, but need protection along the way. Or even bigger scale, where if we take control of that fortress overlooking the pass we can safely travel through these lands because the NPC guards will no longer be aggressive.

The game is supposed to be about me; at least as far as I'm concerned. It's my tale, the story of my character's life.

The point of the game is to have fun. And creating a rich, gritty epic about my character in digital glory is the pinnacle of fun. To me.

Originally posted by Nizur

MO is probably the closest thing to what you're looking for. Or at least as it's promised, it's closest. It's in beta atm.

Ryzom has most of what you're looking for except it might be light on PvP. It has it, it's just much more focused on PvE. For PvP, there are outpost wars which are basically battles over resources. Guilds control the various outposts. Your guild or group of guilds can declare war on an outpost, and the defending guild has a certain number of hours before the siege begins. The defenders can also have other guilds help defend. And any neutral passers-by are asked if they want to attack or defend or just watch. If the attackers have defeated the defenders, they must then successfully defend it against the former defenders. If they can do that, then the attackers now control the OP. Otherwise the OP stays under the control of the defenders. Sounds a little complicated, but it's not.

You can also fight other players anywhere in the world if you and they are PvP flagged.

Also, I'm not sure what exactly you're wanting graphics-wise. Ryzom is 5 years old, but it's graphics still look decent on high settings. It's no AoC or LotRO, but it's not bad either.

And with a 3 week trial, it's at least worth kicking the tires.

What is MO ??
 

Originally posted by Nicrox

Originally posted by Nizur

MO is probably the closest thing to what you're looking for. Or at least as it's promised, it's closest. It's in beta atm.

Ryzom has most of what you're looking for except it might be light on PvP. It has it, it's just much more focused on PvE. For PvP, there are outpost wars which are basically battles over resources. Guilds control the various outposts. Your guild or group of guilds can declare war on an outpost, and the defending guild has a certain number of hours before the siege begins. The defenders can also have other guilds help defend. And any neutral passers-by are asked if they want to attack or defend or just watch. If the attackers have defeated the defenders, they must then successfully defend it against the former defenders. If they can do that, then the attackers now control the OP. Otherwise the OP stays under the control of the defenders. Sounds a little complicated, but it's not.

You can also fight other players anywhere in the world if you and they are PvP flagged.

Also, I'm not sure what exactly you're wanting graphics-wise. Ryzom is 5 years old, but it's graphics still look decent on high settings. It's no AoC or LotRO, but it's not bad either.

And with a 3 week trial, it's at least worth kicking the tires.

What is MO ??
 

Mortal Online. It's being developed out of... Norway, or is it Sweden? 

It won't be out for several months at least, but Earthrise is promising all of those features.

1) OPEN WORLD - Earthrise will have no instances or even load screens between areas. Theoretically you could go anywhere at any point in your development, but obviously some areas are much more dangerous than others.

2) PLAYER DRIVEN WORLD - Economy is completely player driven. Advanced materials are available only through territories which must be captured and developed by a guild. Crafting is going to very in depth with no preset recipes that must be followed.

3) SKILL BASED - Yup.

4) MATURE COMMUNITY - So far so good.

5) DECENT GRAPHICS - Very good graphics, check out the screenshots on this site.

6) LORE - Plenty of lore already released, with more getting released all the time.

7) PvP - Big PvP focus. The territories as mentioned above will be a huge source of PvP as guilds fight for control of resources. Further, only the two large cities are completely safe from PvP. Other parts may have npc guards, but PvP is still certainly possible. Of course, the conflict territories are guard free.

Originally posted by Whitetree

Mortal Online. It's being developed out of... Norway, or is it Sweden? 

Malmö. Sweden *mumbles something about norway*

Earthrise looks promising as well. Thanks for the heads-up on that one. I had seen some info about it a while back but had forgotten about it. I'll keep my eye on it, too.

Loke, sorry for the honest mistake on Mortal Online's origins. I look forward to seeing what they can do with it, though.

Ive been thinking about going back to AC so dont worry ,your not alone.The game has everything you listed but ( 99'  era graphics and is low populated)

there is a certain swg game out right now that is as sandbox as you will find... best ever imo

Was looking for a sandbox game to,so I tried Wurm.It has a first person view setup so you don't see your avatar.Which I found very annoying.
Then I talk to the first NPC,she tells me to go cut a tree down and collect some logs.Simple right?
I walk around till I find a tree to chop,get some logs and head back to NPC..but wait where is she?No map,no way to tell where she is.I wonder around for 20 minutes trying to find her,give up,log out,never play again.
It's browser based so at least I didn't have to install/uninstall anything.

 I will admit, Wurm is not very user friendly, however, you are also quiet... in the wrong frame of mind. You want 'everything given to you' ie, gimmeh map go here do this etc. Thats not what Wurm, or Sandbox is about, and if thats the mentality you have, I do not believe you truly are into Sandboxes.

Mortal online is in beta. If there are any copies of the pre-order left you can prolly get into beta. However if you are looking for a game to 'play' right now, go take a look at wurm online.

....and there is always darkfall