Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by ChinaCat

 

lol   A prophet.

Tell you what, if DFO folds, you can post this and it will make sense.  At the moment is is alive, actively being worked upon, great fun, and more folks are subscribing every day.      I realize this may not sit well with you, but those are the facts.   Your post is a prediction, which honestly, means a lot to you, but nothing to any one playing DFO.

Let me know what the lottery number in CA wil be this weekend please.   I can use the money.

-CC

 

There's none so blind as they that won't see.
~Swift, Jonathan

Darkfall may survive, barely,  but it's unlikely it will never be a success. No the population is not increasing significantly. Your "facts" have no basis in reality.

 

You on the other hand have no facts at all.

 

 

I don't need any "facts" to point out the obvious do I? Are the servers so overcrowded they need to open no ones? No? Then Obviously the population isn't increasing significantly. Are there more than two full servers? No? Then Obviously the game is not a success because there are at most 25k subscribers and that's a ludicrous overstatement based on all available information. Can you understand what that means? No? Then Obviously you are willfully blind.

 

You know that DarkFall was a low budget production ? No ? You know them being very carefully with not open too much servers at first ? No ? Its just 2 months they opened a new second server ? No ? even self published ? No ? 

 

Dude, You're wasting your time posting to this guy.

It's obvious that the haters of DF don't give a shit and continue to spew bullshit left and right.

DF is stable right now, were on the verge of recieving a kick ass patch. thats all that matters right now.

We should be excited not bitching at haters.

Originally posted by metalhead980

 

I'm sure AV is doing just fine with the 10-15k subs they have across two servers. Stop the hate already and realize that these small indy games don't need large amount of subs to survive.

 

 

Not hate. Just reality. Now go back and read what I wrote. What PvP games need to survive is a steady rollover of subscriptions. people burn out, get bored, move on. It happens with every game. What you have to have is a large enough player base that these fluctuations aren't noticible. If you don't have enough existing subscribers and new suscrbers coming in to account for that you get big empty world syndrome and the game dies. Darkfall hasn't reached that point yet. It may never reach that point. It probably makes enough money to cover the costs with a little left over to pay off the debt it's racked up but it will take a long time before it earns enough to pay back it's investors. It's not a success by any reasonable measure.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

 

You know that DarkFall was a low budget production ? No ? You know them being very carefully with not open too much servers at first ? No ? Its just 2 months they opened a new second server ? No ? even self published ? No ? 

I see all cities have players and the PvE hotspots have to be shared or get raided often. Then our clan gets bigger and bigger. I experience something raises and not declines.

 

18-20 million is not "low budget". Korean MMOs spend half that in development and make a much higher return. They didn't open too many servers because they have neither the subscibers not the money to do so. Self publishing is more of a curse than a cost savings. You can't spin a low number of subscribers as a good thing. Eventually investors expect a return on their investment. They bungled the lauch and it will limit any future potential earnings the game has. Like Isaid thegame may survive, barely, it won't be a success.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by daveospice

Yes I love pvp and don't mind them anymore.  I remember when I did, it was back in UO when I got killed and my house key was looted off my corpse.  THAT SUCKED!  I quit for a few days from playing I was so pissed.  Then I did it to someone else I was so pissed and man it was a great feeling.  I was 14 and stupid then.  Still a little stupid now.

LOL. I love that. This is a one-paragraph explanation of Human behavior. Exerting power over someone else reduces our own fear. That's why people are cruel.

I call it "big monkey, little monkey". Read the monkey house chapter from 'Stranger in a Strange Land". Great insight into why we do the things we do. It really opened my eyes. Brilliant.

uhm except ofcourse not everyone enjoys hurting others just because they themselves get hurt. There are good people who, once get hurt, would not want to give that feeling to others.

True antis, back in the old days, were like that.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by ChinaCat

 

lol   A prophet.

Tell you what, if DFO folds, you can post this and it will make sense.  At the moment is is alive, actively being worked upon, great fun, and more folks are subscribing every day.      I realize this may not sit well with you, but those are the facts.   Your post is a prediction, which honestly, means a lot to you, but nothing to any one playing DFO.

Let me know what the lottery number in CA wil be this weekend please.   I can use the money.

-CC

 

There's none so blind as they that won't see.
~Swift, Jonathan

Darkfall may survive, barely,  but it's unlikely it will never be a success. No the population is not increasing significantly. Your "facts" have no basis in reality.

 

You on the other hand have no facts at all.

 

 

I don't need any "facts" to point out the obvious do I? Are the servers so overcrowded they need to open new ones? No? Then Obviously the population isn't increasing significantly. Are there more than two full servers? No? Then Obviously the game is not a success because there are at most 25k subscribers and that's a ludicrous overstatement based on all available information. Can you understand what that means? No? Then Obviously you are willfully blind.

Its an indie company so its kind a success that the devs wanted. By developing that game, they named them self indie company. So what do you expect? DF will never die and you mentioned it too. So you may hate the game so you can GTFO. You may like the game and stay and enjoy.

I think there are 2 server. 1 EU and NA. 10 000 subs. in 1 server. Compared to a game with only 2000 player cap in one server, that kind of game would have to add 5 server for both EU and NA and i think this is what AOC did. 5 server. Some pvp, pve, RP, RPpvp and a last one.

I was in the darkfall forum and i heard that there might be an other EU server or NA. Meaning that DF is really growing.

BTW, Darkfall have only 30 devs. Its small to develope an mmorpg and they do their job so well anyway.

Originally posted by Yamota 

uhm except ofcourse not everyone enjoys hurting others just because they themselves get hurt. There are good people who, once get hurt, would not want to give that feeling to others.

True antis, back in the old days, were like that.

Absolutely. There are some of us who are above that sort of behaviour. I'm not excusing it, just explaining it.
 

"Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above."

Originally posted by WillClarke

"Yes I love pvp and don't mind them anymore. I remember when I did, it was back in UO when I got killed and my house key was looted off my corpse. THAT SUCKED! I quit for a few days from playing I was so pissed. Then I did it to someone else I was so pissed and man it was a great feeling."

Throughout your post i got the vibe that you like being on top and having an advantage over everyone else and you hate that someone is more skilled than you at a different sort of game.  Darkfall is survival of the fittest (by fittest i mean first, eariest, fanbois who watched its development) The game is meant to be hard, what do you expect from a full loot full pvp game?  To be left alone for 5 seconds and be able to do pve without getting ambushed?  It won't happen

When you get a break in this game you will enjoy pking 'noobies' but you don't enjoy being a noobie.  Get used to it or go play a different game.

 

Wow, you just painted an ugly picture of this game - I'm looking for a new mmorpg or mmorts... This post almost makes me check this game off as crap.

I'm not sure how it would be fun to start up a game that gives that kind of advantage to the no lifers and no break to let people figure out the game first before the ganking starts.. This doesn't seem to make sense...

Is it really like that? Is there a free trial at least?

Yes the game world is that harsh.  As soon as you walk out in the world.... the newbie area next to your town is the hottest spot for PKS.  You will get pked over and over as groups of people come on horseback with sword and shield, or archers and mages shoot you from afar and you being too low level and under geared to do anything about it will get killed at least 20 times before you finally can move to another destination.  At least that's how it was for me.

As far as this game failing, it is failing.

Why you think they're worried about the new player experience?  After all they built this game up to be a "hardcore" game why not live up to it's reputation?  The hardcore players are a niche market.  A small group of people I would say no more than 10,000 but probably more like two to five thousand.  I've ran across the world several times now to explore the graphics (some places look pretty neat like the middle of the map and the dark elves).  I've seen the cities.  My entire time running across the map I saw maybe 20-30 people.  It is a very empty world.

Newbie area for Wolves, all three areas have maybe 1-3 people on in the area at a time.   I don't know how it is for the other races but the newbie areas spawns are real slow for a reason...  Usually only 1 or 2 people at the spawns. 

 I completely agree with the OP.

Hit the nail right on the head.

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by daarco

 

No!

"High level" characters should help noobs from other high level characters that wants to kill them. 

Pretty simple actually : )

 

Should, but won't. If they wanted a fair fight, they wouldn't be killing the other side's noobs.

 

So its the players that are stupid. Not the game itself : )

And as a noob you must seek out protection. Just as in jail! You will be someones bitch, even if you dont like it. Or maybe people today would not endure prison? Yes they do.

This was a bit of sarcasm. Im pretty tired and maybe you understand what i mean.  As an adult you need to do thing that is not always funny. You just have to do it.

Yes... it's human behavior, ultimately... but the game allows it to happen and, yes, it does have a net negative affect on the game. Funny, I recall predicting this exact thing - more powerful characters stalking the starting areas, picking off the new players since they were easy prey. When I said it, though, I was told I didn't know what I was talking about, that I obviously didn't understand how DF would be set up because it wouldn't allow that to happen and so on... When I pointed out that no matter what system was put in place, those determined to grief/harass new players would find a way, I was called a "n00b" and a "carebear" and a "troll" and a "hater".

Yet, here we are now with that exact behavior being discussed. And, please, anyone tempted to try and spin this into "it's a PvP game you should expect that lolololol", don't bother. The point is I *did* expect it. Months before its launch, I predicted it would happen with any MMO that allowed FFA, unrestricted PvP because there's a subset of the PvP crowd who specifically seek that kind of thing out. I was told I didn't know what I was talking about.

This following is the example I gave back when I was told I didn't know what I was talking about, but I'll share it again as it's now more relevant and, obviously, true even in Darkfall.

When Lineage 2 first came out, it was wide-open, FFA PvP, no restrictions no interference by the GMs, etc. As long as someone wasn't using derogatory or inflammatory language at you, making RL threats, etc... they would not get involved. You would lose xp and/or levels, you had a very high chance of dropping some valuable items - including gear, by being killed by another player, or a mob (which resulted in a lot of griefing in the form of mob trains). 

Even as a brand-new, level 1 character you were expected to fend for yourself against the level 30+ who would hang around there to pick you off and then call you a n00b; Something I always found pretty pathetic. It would be like a 20 year-old punching a 2 year old in the face. laughing and calling them a "child". Never quite understood that mentality, but still there are plenty of people in the MMO scene who wear it like a badge.

People complained about it, clearly acknowledging that even in a PvP MMO, there's such a thing as griefing and at level one, as a brand-new player who doesn't know anyone, it's kinda difficult to find backup. At the time, in the beginning, most players had the attitude of "sink or swim"... you're either going to tough it out or you're not going to last. Sounds good on paper, sure. But the reality of it steadily began to become apparent, and it's very similar to what's been described in this thread already.

As time went on, players who had been there from the start leveled up and became more powerful. Among them were the inevitable griefers/gankers running around ganking brand-new players/characters to prove how uber they are as a level 30+.

This is when it started to become a problem.

The existing players continued to progress, but not much new blood was coming into the game - too many were being turned away by the griefers/gankers stalking the starting areas. Even those who enjoy PvP gets sick of wasting time dealing with some idiot whose only goal in the game is to make others' experiences as miserable as possible. So, the game began to become top-heavy.

I came back to L2 during Chronicle 3 and this is when I saw the big difference. The long-time players themselves started asking the griefers/gankers to leave the new players be... that the game was top-heavy and needed more new players to keep it fresh and interesting. This couldn't happen if they were being turned away. NC Soft got the hint as well and placed more restrictions on PvP, while still leaving it open. 

Well... telling someone with the mindset of a typical lowbie griefer/ganker that what they're doing is causing people to leave the game is like giving them a reward. The idea that they're causing *so* much misery that it makes players leave is the ultimate boost to their pathetic egos. So, of course, they continued doing it.

This is when the higher level players began what they would come to call as "Red Hunts", so termed because when you PK someone who hasn't flagged back, your name goes red which means you're "chaotic" or an "outlaw" and there are various penalties that go with it. Many griefers/gankers also prided themselves on being red all the time as a sign of their juvenile sense "uberness".  

The higher level players would now ask those new players who were being griefed/ganked to let them know who was doing it, when and where. Then they would show up and hang around the area to wait for the griefers to show up and deal with them in turn.  Predictably, the griefers/gankers would run away or force-log at the sign of anyone anywhere near their own level.. See, "hardcore" to them means "being able to beat people 30+ levels lower than you". Actual competitive PvP against people similarly leveled, skilled or equipped is not what they're looking for... because they typically suck and they know it.

The Red hunters would often follow-up by hanging out with the new player(s) for a few hours, show them around, give them some tips, perhaps some coin to help them get better gear, etc... They would give them a preview of what awaited them if they stuck around. Those people ultimately made the experience far more enjoyable and tolerable for the new players and, so, L2 saw a bit of an increase in new players sticking around. I say this from first-hand experience as that's what happened with me.

In any case... this is a great example of why FFA, wide-open PvP with no restrictions and full loot, etc. sounds wonderful on paper. However, because you have assholes out there like the lowbie greifers/gankers...it will never work.

It's another great example of how more experienced players learning to understand the difference between "PvP" and "pointless ganking/griefing", promoting the former and discouraging the latter, can help improve not only the experience for the individual players, but can result in a much better community overall.  

It's not "carebear" to promote and nurture a solid community - even one fighting against each other on a daily basis. It's called "sportsmanship". Watch some Lineage 2 PvP vids. You'll often see people say "GF" at the end of an encounter. That obviously stands for "Good Fight". Many times you'll see it show up in Hero chat after some Heroes have had some PvP against each other, etc. Sure there's smack-talk, but it's typically all in good fun. The benefit that kind of maturity and sportsmanship brings to a game's community overall cannot be overstated.

There are still griefers/gankers in L2 to be sure... but they're not nearly as prevalent and nowhere near the problem they were for the first couple Chronicles. 

Excellent post, WSIMike.

Read 'Stranger in a Strange Land'. The segment about the trip to the zoo will explain why Humans are cruel for no apparent reason.

This is the Darkfall's issue - the lack of content and thought-out mechanics. It pretends to be a 'sandbox' but it is just an empty bottle instead.

Sandbox with no tools to build up anything...

I am aware that they are adding new content and improving the game but as it is now...