I have to agree, not with the title of the story, but with the full post.

To many developers try to be everything to everyone, and nowhere is this more clear then with PvP. If you don't have PvP then you ain't an MMO but so far, almost no MMO has seemed to be able to get it right.

World of Warcraft's PvP is constantly complained about, Eve's is said to be good but that makes it clear, good PvP just doesn't get you subscribers.

That would seem unlikely, so it is more likely that something about Eve just doesn't get the punters.

In Lotro you can see a LOT of talk about PvP and the PvMP section of the forum is the most active, but when you actually visit the PvMP area, you will find only a handful of people there, a fraction of the total number of people logged into a server.

Yet, PvP is what must be done. Imagine other games had gone that route. Doom started with multi-player enabled therefor EVERY fps has to have multi-player. No Deus-Ex.

It is important that developers listen to their audience, but it is also vital they make a clear decision as to who their audience is going to be.

It avoids disasters like Age of Conan where it seemed clear that apart from the bugs, a lot of people quit because it wasn't what they expected.

Tell us what your game is going to be. It is amusing to see the devs of both SWTOR and TSW not being able to do this so far. Their message so far is "don\'t worry, no matter what you like, you will find it in our game." Unlikely. 

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Developers need to ditch the publishers. they're not needed. Developers need full control to meet their customers expectations.

Not that many developers can afford to ditch publishers.  Publishers tend to be the ones with the money, experience and contacts.  Its slowly evolving away from that, but for the time being thats the reality.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Developers need to ditch the publishers. they're not needed. Developers need full control to meet their customers expectations.

 

Not that many developers can afford to ditch publishers.  Publishers tend to be the ones with the money, experience and contacts.  Its slowly evolving away from that, but for the time being thats the reality.

By that time there will only be 2-3 publishers left and the cost will be inflated to 500 mil plus to make a playable mmo. Developers can afford to ditch them. Start small. Make a decent living with job security.

What the article says is right. There is a sort of gap that is not often bridged between players and developers and so the only way to get the changes and quality you desire is to become a developer yourself.

I am hoping in the future there is more focus testing and serious consideration of suggestions for solutions to problems.

Net Devil has said that they are doing focus testing and adjusting instead of assuming that as developers they know it all. Hopefully this kind of attitude spreads because honestly the game developers as a whole have been mostly failing to create anything fun. 

Hopefully ND's Jumpgate Evolution will break the cycle of fail and more developers will wake up to the fact that there is a better way.

I have to be honest I stopped reading this article when a supposed "lack of accountability" in the MMO world for devs came up.  Go talk to the guys that spent years working on Tabula Rasa or Auto Assault about that.  Its called speaking with your dollars.

Wanna know how devs view us?  A guy named Scott Hartsman, a dev who has worked for many different MMOs as well as social game sites, told this joke on a recent podcast.  How many devs does it take to screw in a light bulb?  You wouldn't know, you never made one.  Pretty sad that anyone who says much of anything anymore is viewed that way.

There is too much of this us vs them attitude that permates the game industry.  Somehow the industry is viewed as this giant genie that is supposed to give each and everyone of us exactly what we want, when we want it, how we want it.  Not to mention everything that can beat us in a game is OP, plus we should be able to withstand any amount of dmg during an attack and be able to overcome any obstacle. 

I could go on and on but my view is the most vocal part of any game community are the whiners that want, what they want, when they want it.  And if you don't give it to them right then, they get louder and louder until mommy and daddy apply the Kmart method of discipline.  A good slap across the face and a nice big cup of shut the hell up, which rarely happens.  If people would be reasonable in their complaints and wishes maybe the devs would not view us with such a harsh eye.

Bottom line, don't like the way things go in a game, quit playing.  Quit posting on their boards as well.  Instead people play a game and continue to PAY for it and post on the respective boards until its absolutely absurd.  Just quit playing.  Its certainly your right to speak with your dollars.  Make the companies accountable by not paying for what you view as their trash or lack of customer service.  Ive done it over and over.  Its not hard.  Just quit playing.

Originally posted by grimslarcat

I have to be honest I stopped reading this article when a supposed "lack of accountability" in the MMO world for devs came up.  Go talk to the guys that spent years working on Tabula Rasa or Auto Assault about that.  Its called speaking with your dollars.

 

Wanna know how devs view us?  A guy named Scott Hartsman, a dev who has worked for many different MMOs as well as social game sites, told this joke on a recent podcast.  How many devs does it take to screw in a light bulb?  You wouldn't know, you never made one.  Pretty sad that anyone who says much of anything anymore is viewed that way.

 

There is too much of this us vs them attitude that permates the game industry.  Somehow the industry is viewed as this giant genie that is supposed to give each and everyone of us exactly what we want, when we want it, how we want it.  Not to mention everything that can beat us in a game is OP, plus we should be able to withstand any amount of dmg during an attack and be able to overcome any obstacle. 

 

I could go on and on but my view is the most vocal part of any game community are the whiners that want, what they want, when they want it.  And if you don't give it to them right then, they get louder and louder until mommy and daddy apply the Kmart method of discipline.  A good slap across the face and a nice big cup of shut the hell up, which rarely happens.  If people would be reasonable in their complaints and wishes maybe the devs would not view us with such a harsh eye.

 

Bottom line, don't like the way things go in a game, quit playing.  Quit posting on their boards as well.  Instead people play a game and continue to PAY for it and post on the respective boards until its absolutely absurd.  Just quit playing.  Its certainly your right to speak with your dollars.  Make the companies accountable by not paying for what you view as their trash or lack of customer service.  Ive done it over and over.  Its not hard.  Just quit playing.

 

 

 

Sorry. I quit reading after the first paragraph. If you can't be bothered to read the entire article before you post, I can't take your post seriously enough to read.

I'd like to draw an analogy with popular music to explain my thoughts on this...

Too much player input gives you an X-Factor style game. Fun for 10 seconds, but ultimately a rehashed pile of crap or something thats so niche market that only a handful of weird people sub before it folds.

Get a phenomenal production team together, mix in some genius, luck and inspiration and you'll end up with a massively successful classic - like the Beatles - or alternatively, a cult classic that never achieves big numbers but still pwns for a certain audience - like Engelbert Humperdinck .

Thing with MMOs is this. Almost everyone wants the next WoW - period. But love it or hate it, if you liken WoW to a masterpiece like the Mona Lisa, stuff like that just doesn't get pumped out every 5 minutes. You could listen to every dude with a PC from here to Timbuktu and back and no-one may have the key to the next big thing, not for years.

Even one tiny event can change everything, which is why the desires of millions of players will not bring an uber-game into existence. I think the best bet of a new, superstar MMO is from a developer - large or small - who isn't under a ton of financial pressure, is lead by some kind of tyrant and does their own thang, totally ignoring the players wants. Simply because wants and needs are often two very different things. Chances are these people will make a load more Darkfalls, but eventually I think kind of outfit will produce the next biggy.

My experience of Alphas is this:

I go and look for bugs in a game but rapidly develop a dislike for it because the unfinished product is exactly what it is - not ready - and that tarnishes the whole thing. I also offer a load of feedback on design, gameplay, etc and NONE OF IT gets addressed. Not that I mind a developer sticking to their concept and not being swayed by some random Joe, but don't ask for feedback you're not going to take on board at all.

My experience of Beta is this:

I like betas because even though I'm only REALLY playing to look for bugs, I do get to find out whether or not I should bother subbing. Unless it's an open beta for pre-order people, in which case you're sometimes feel like you're only getting to find out early how badly you've been fisted by the developer.

Aryas

I think people take for granted what the developers are doing. I see this a LOT on the WoW forums, with people crying about what's broken, what needs to be buffed/nerfed, and how that would help them. Some of them even come in with great, valid arguments and solid data to back up their claims.

The problem comes in when you actually make that tweak. That one, tiny tweak can change the entirety of the game in so many ways, it's mind boggling! It can change the way your class is played for every character in the game. It can change the mob/boss encounters of the game in drastic ways. And that's just ONE class! Think if you made these minor tweaks to EVERY class! What would you end up with? Truthfully, a pile of burning rubble. Your great game would suddenly come crashing down because you made those changes before the end of the month.

These things, even when they DO want to make changes, take a lot of time, a lot of balancing, a lot of planning for the future, and a lot of iteration, over and over testing it to make sure it's just right, AND that it will scale well with better gear. It's not a simple process, and most people assume that because it wasn't finished 2 days, much less 2 months after they made the comment, that the developers just don't care and don't want to fix the class.

Give the devs time to do what's right. Give them time to test it. Give them time to analyze the situation, make the changes, balance, and everything. Give them time to do what they're trained to do, what they're paid to do, but most importantly, what they WANT to do, because I have faith that the devs want one thing first and foremost -- for you to have fun. It may not come instantly, but fortunately, MMOs are around for a long time, so we can still see the games come into full fruition.

Mmoprg should be more directed towards a Social Democracy rather and a Capitalism Senate. There i said it. Too a degree you can find similar government  structure in many mmorpgs. Take World of Warcraft of example. In it's truest form it is by all mean a form of Capitalism. I am not saying Capitalism is a bad thing by any means but, in a mmorpg reflecting this kind of government structure is bad for the gamer. Take Arena for example. When Wotlk newest seassion started off everyone was at a equal playing field. However as time wore on only the better and stronger class/spec and players that play well together progressed, while the rest bleed and clawed to get every bit of progression items they could get to say in competitive range. Now with the session seven just out now for a few weeks. Anyone that couldn't keep up or wanting to start off is at a mile of  a disadvantage.

The only means beyond Arena to progress with a alt starting off is Bg gear that is at least 2 session old. This is hardly a sturdy stepping stone for most players and one i find very difficult to overcome with my other 5 level 80s I have. The stronger more resillianced out players with stronger weapons i cannot even come close to touching. It will take at least 2 full session to catch up to these titans. The rich get richer and i get pwned.

Another aspect is the different tiers of raiding. At first is was enjoyable and i could pug and interactwith new players. In some cases it was wonderful. In a whole bunch of other ways it was a nightmare. For example, if grouped with some people that didn't want to finish the full raid that day or night, I was locked into of the instance for a week and any attempts of finding a group that choice was made for me. There is a few problems with this

- Getting everyone to getter the next day to finishing the raid.

- Some player would go ahead and finishes the raid without the group that was there.

Just to name 2. The alternative to this is join a guild but, It still doesn't change the problem I would be faced with later as an officer.

When my guild packed it in on a Uladar run one night. I encounter a few member trying to put together a pug and finish that Uladar run the guild was working on. Now right then and there i should of kicked them but, then i would be down hardcore members that are on all the time.

My main problem is the lockouts. They give too much power to 1 player over another. My other problem not related above is how loot is handled in World of Warcraft givng the power of 1 player over many because, loot isn't assigned to the individual and rather the group.

Players have too much power to be a responsible mature players. We all know that so, why does company implore this kind of standard in their games ?

I highly doubt anything i have said here will be agreed with and I am o.k with that but, these are just my feeling  concerning mmorpg and not just Wow. I have seen this in a few games. Truthful as a person that spends the most part of his free time gaming I'm getting turned off of Mmorpgs altogether because, what they are standing for. When i started playing mmorpgs way back when. I thought to myself "hey this is great, I can play a game and i can progress in it at the same time" Before that i was a Fps Rts gamer with a heavy console back round. This is not at all what I imagined when i started playing.

I agree with Garrett Fuller. There needs to be revolution or F it what's the point anymore ? We should all just go back to what we where doing before we started playing mmorpgs. At least there I know what to expect from other players and I have to power to do something about it.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Developers need to ditch the publishers. they're not needed.

That was a  joke, right? 

Create a physical boxed product, make the deals necessary to get it on store shelves and efficiently handle the global distribution.

When you're done, stop back here and let us know if you still think publishers are not needed.  :) 

Originally posted by Cypryss

Mmoprg should be more directed towards a Social Democracy rather and a Capitalism Senate. There i said it. Too a degree you can find similar government  structure in many mmorpgs. Take World of Warcraft of example. In it's truest form it is by all mean a form of Capitalism. I am not saying Capitalism is a bad thing by any means but, in a mmorpg reflecting this kind of government structure is bad for the gamer. Take Arena for example. When Wotlk newest seassion started off everyone was at a equal playing field. However as time wore on only the better and stronger class/spec and players that play well together progressed, while the rest bleed and clawed to get every bit of progression items they could get to say in competitive range. Now with the session seven just out now for a few weeks. Anyone that couldn't keep up or wanting to start off is at a mile of  a disadvantage.

The only means beyond Arena to progress with a alt starting off is Bg gear that is at least 2 session old. This is hardly a sturdy stepping stone for most players and one i find very difficult to overcome with my other 5 level 80s I have. The stronger more resillianced out players with stronger weapons i cannot even come close to touching. It will take at least 2 full session to catch up to these titans. The rich get richer and i get pwned.

 

Another aspect is the different tiers of raiding. At first is was enjoyable and i could pug and interactwith new players. In some cases it was wonderful. In a whole bunch of other ways it was a nightmare. For example, if grouped with some people that didn't want to finish the full raid that day or night, I was locked into of the instance for a week and any attempts of finding a group that choice was made for me. There is a few problems with this

- Getting everyone to getter the next day to finishing the raid.

- Some player would go ahead and finishes the raid without the group that was there.

Just to name 2. The alternative to this is join a guild but, It still doesn't change the problem I would be faced with later as an officer.

When my guild packed it in on a Uladar run one night. I encounter a few member trying to put together a pug and finish that Uladar run the guild was working on. Now right then and there i should of kicked them but, then i would be down hardcore members that are on all the time.

My main problem is the lockouts. They give too much power to 1 player over another. My other problem not related above is how loot is handled in World of Warcraft givng the power of 1 player over many because, loot isn't assigned to the individual and rather the group.

Players have too much power to be a responsible mature players. We all know that so, why does company implore this kind of standard in their games ?

I highly doubt anything i have said here will be agreed with and I am o.k with that but, these are just my feeling  concerning mmorpg and not just Wow. I have seen this in a few games. Truthful as a person that spends the most part of his free time gaming I'm getting turned off of Mmorpgs altogether because, what they are standing for. When i started playing mmorpgs way back when. I thought to myself "hey this is great, I can play a game and i can progress in it at the same time" Before that i was a Fps Rts gamer with a heavy console back round. This is not at all what I imagined when i started playing.

I agree with Garrett Fuller. There needs to be revolution or F it what's the point anymore ? We should all just go back to what we where doing before we started playing mmorpgs. At least there I know what to expect from other players and I have to power to do something about it.

 

 

Social Democracy?? You do realize thats an even bigger farce than what we have now? You would be exchanging the Few Who Rule(those who own the banks/corps and thus the politicians) for The Party. Its simply a subset of the same Boss class.  At least in WoW, everyone has a chance to do the best they are capable of.  Its all a matter of how much time/talent/focus and imagination you are willing to invest.

Sure there are dues to pay. You can't expect to start out on the same level as people who have invested hundreds or thousands of hours over the last almost 5 years. But if you are willing to invest the time/talent and focus, you can get your own "piece of the action" if thats what you want.  With Blizzards on going patches, content gets easier and thus more accessible to larger numbers of people as time goes on.

As for "players have too much power to be responsible mature players" thats been the perspective of those behind The Party since the concept began.  What people forget is that The Party is made up of people, the same as anyone else.  In fact, history demonstrates that those who make up The Party, tend to be much more sociopathic than one normally sees in the general population(power systems self select for such types).

One of the major reasons that WoW is so popular is that its open to such a wide range of people. It will run on *long* out dated hardware, and its easy to get in to and continue with.  After all these years its fairly polished, and it  has a LOT of content. Its all a matter of what a player is willing to invest in their play sessions.

Originally posted by grimslarcat

I have to be honest I stopped reading this article when a supposed "lack of accountability" in the MMO world for devs came up.  Go talk to the guys that spent years working on Tabula Rasa or Auto Assault about that.  Its called speaking with your dollars...

...Bottom line, don't like the way things go in a game, quit playing.  Quit posting on their boards as well.  Instead people play a game and continue to PAY for it and post on the respective boards until its absolutely absurd.  Just quit playing.  Its certainly your right to speak with your dollars.  Make the companies accountable by not paying for what you view as their trash or lack of customer service.  Ive done it over and over.  Its not hard.  Just quit playing.

"Voting with the wallet" is and always will be the least preferable alternative for a player.  It's like the nuclear bomb of customer service: the only way I can save the thing I enjoy is to annihilate it.  It implies writing off the significant amount of money (sometimes in the hundreds of dollars) a player has already put into the game, foregoing all future enjoyment of it or the investment required to enjoy it to that point.  It only voices the displeasure by foregoing all constructive channels to voice the displeasure.  Furthermore, it holds the developer accountable only by cutting off the things it needs to be accountable: funds and information.

Cancelling only makes sense if you like nothing in the game, because then there's no loss.  But for people who like the game, they want to enjoy the things that drew them to purchase the game in the first place.  How does cancelling help them get the things they want?

Because all that will happen is that they won't be able to enjoy the things they enjoy.  In the worst case scenario, the game will close, and then nothing can be done to get the things the player enjoyed back.  Cancelling is the last hope of a desperate playerbase to evoke some change.  It is also, at that point, too late for a developer to become accountable.

The failures of Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault are not evidence that the developers are accountable.  They never had the opportunity to be accountable, or show they were accountable.  And now all the players: those who loved AA and TR as they were, those who liked them but wanted changes, and those (like me) who always wanted to try them, but never got a chance to; will now not be able to play.

That's why it is in both our interest and the developers' interest to demand greater accountability.  Because when the /cancel button is the only way to hold devs accountable, and the only way a player can voice his displeasure, all we get are cancelled games and a lot of wasted money.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Cypryss

Mmoprg should be more directed towards a Social Democracy rather and a Capitalism Senate. There i said it. Too a degree you can find similar government  structure in many mmorpgs. Take World of Warcraft of example. In it's truest form it is by all mean a form of Capitalism. I am not saying Capitalism is a bad thing by any means but, in a mmorpg reflecting this kind of government structure is bad for the gamer. Take Arena for example. When Wotlk newest seassion started off everyone was at a equal playing field. However as time wore on only the better and stronger class/spec and players that play well together progressed, while the rest bleed and clawed to get every bit of progression items they could get to say in competitive range. Now with the session seven just out now for a few weeks. Anyone that couldn't keep up or wanting to start off is at a mile of  a disadvantage.

The only means beyond Arena to progress with a alt starting off is Bg gear that is at least 2 session old. This is hardly a sturdy stepping stone for most players and one i find very difficult to overcome with my other 5 level 80s I have. The stronger more resillianced out players with stronger weapons i cannot even come close to touching. It will take at least 2 full session to catch up to these titans. The rich get richer and i get pwned.

 

Another aspect is the different tiers of raiding. At first is was enjoyable and i could pug and interactwith new players. In some cases it was wonderful. In a whole bunch of other ways it was a nightmare. For example, if grouped with some people that didn't want to finish the full raid that day or night, I was locked into of the instance for a week and any attempts of finding a group that choice was made for me. There is a few problems with this

- Getting everyone to getter the next day to finishing the raid.

- Some player would go ahead and finishes the raid without the group that was there.

Just to name 2. The alternative to this is join a guild but, It still doesn't change the problem I would be faced with later as an officer.

When my guild packed it in on a Uladar run one night. I encounter a few member trying to put together a pug and finish that Uladar run the guild was working on. Now right then and there i should of kicked them but, then i would be down hardcore members that are on all the time.

My main problem is the lockouts. They give too much power to 1 player over another. My other problem not related above is how loot is handled in World of Warcraft givng the power of 1 player over many because, loot isn't assigned to the individual and rather the group.

Players have too much power to be a responsible mature players. We all know that so, why does company implore this kind of standard in their games ?

I highly doubt anything i have said here will be agreed with and I am o.k with that but, these are just my feeling  concerning mmorpg and not just Wow. I have seen this in a few games. Truthful as a person that spends the most part of his free time gaming I'm getting turned off of Mmorpgs altogether because, what they are standing for. When i started playing mmorpgs way back when. I thought to myself "hey this is great, I can play a game and i can progress in it at the same time" Before that i was a Fps Rts gamer with a heavy console back round. This is not at all what I imagined when i started playing.

I agree with Garrett Fuller. There needs to be revolution or F it what's the point anymore ? We should all just go back to what we where doing before we started playing mmorpgs. At least there I know what to expect from other players and I have to power to do something about it.

 

 

 

Social Democracy?? You do realize thats an even bigger farce than what we have now? You would be exchanging the Few Who Rule(those who own the banks/corps and thus the politicians) for The Party. Its simply a subset of the same Boss class.  At least in WoW, everyone has a chance to do the best they are capable of.  Its all a matter of how much time/talent/focus and imagination you are willing to invest.

Sure there are dues to pay. You can't expect to start out on the same level as people who have invested hundreds or thousands of hours over the last almost 5 years. But if you are willing to invest the time/talent and focus, you can get your own "piece of the action" if thats what you want.  With Blizzards on going patches, content gets easier and thus more accessible to larger numbers of people as time goes on.

As for "players have too much power to be responsible mature players" thats been the perspective of those behind The Party since the concept began.  What people forget is that The Party is made up of people, the same as anyone else.  In fact, history demonstrates that those who make up The Party, tend to be much more sociopathic than one normally sees in the general population(power systems self select for such types).

One of the major reasons that WoW is so popular is that its open to such a wide range of people. It will run on *long* out dated hardware, and its easy to get in to and continue with.  After all these years its fairly polished, and it  has a LOT of content. Its all a matter of what a player is willing to invest in their play sessions.

 If you look at Canadian politics it's pretty much what we go up here and it seems to work very well. Free heath care, programs that help people find jobs ect. All free of charge.

As for the "players have too much power to be responsible mature players" the only real answer you gave clearly directed toward that is. "Those people are crazy", i know. It's not the players fault for being that way. You give a player a way to hold something over someones head It's like giving a bully that hurts animals a stake to dangle of the head of a starving dog and you implore it. This is suppose to be fun ?

Originally posted by Cypryss

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Cypryss

Mmoprg should be more directed towards a Social Democracy rather and a Capitalism Senate. There i said it. Too a degree you can find similar government  structure in many mmorpgs. Take World of Warcraft of example. In it's truest form it is by all mean a form of Capitalism. I am not saying Capitalism is a bad thing by any means but, in a mmorpg reflecting this kind of government structure is bad for the gamer. Take Arena for example. When Wotlk newest seassion started off everyone was at a equal playing field. However as time wore on only the better and stronger class/spec and players that play well together progressed, while the rest bleed and clawed to get every bit of progression items they could get to say in competitive range. Now with the session seven just out now for a few weeks. Anyone that couldn't keep up or wanting to start off is at a mile of  a disadvantage.

The only means beyond Arena to progress with a alt starting off is Bg gear that is at least 2 session old. This is hardly a sturdy stepping stone for most players and one i find very difficult to overcome with my other 5 level 80s I have. The stronger more resillianced out players with stronger weapons i cannot even come close to touching. It will take at least 2 full session to catch up to these titans. The rich get richer and i get pwned.

 

Another aspect is the different tiers of raiding. At first is was enjoyable and i could pug and interactwith new players. In some cases it was wonderful. In a whole bunch of other ways it was a nightmare. For example, if grouped with some people that didn't want to finish the full raid that day or night, I was locked into of the instance for a week and any attempts of finding a group that choice was made for me. There is a few problems with this

- Getting everyone to getter the next day to finishing the raid.

- Some player would go ahead and finishes the raid without the group that was there.

Just to name 2. The alternative to this is join a guild but, It still doesn't change the problem I would be faced with later as an officer.

When my guild packed it in on a Uladar run one night. I encounter a few member trying to put together a pug and finish that Uladar run the guild was working on. Now right then and there i should of kicked them but, then i would be down hardcore members that are on all the time.

My main problem is the lockouts. They give too much power to 1 player over another. My other problem not related above is how loot is handled in World of Warcraft givng the power of 1 player over many because, loot isn't assigned to the individual and rather the group.

Players have too much power to be a responsible mature players. We all know that so, why does company implore this kind of standard in their games ?

I highly doubt anything i have said here will be agreed with and I am o.k with that but, these are just my feeling  concerning mmorpg and not just Wow. I have seen this in a few games. Truthful as a person that spends the most part of his free time gaming I'm getting turned off of Mmorpgs altogether because, what they are standing for. When i started playing mmorpgs way back when. I thought to myself "hey this is great, I can play a game and i can progress in it at the same time" Before that i was a Fps Rts gamer with a heavy console back round. This is not at all what I imagined when i started playing.

I agree with Garrett Fuller. There needs to be revolution or F it what's the point anymore ? We should all just go back to what we where doing before we started playing mmorpgs. At least there I know what to expect from other players and I have to power to do something about it.

 

 

 

Social Democracy?? You do realize thats an even bigger farce than what we have now? You would be exchanging the Few Who Rule(those who own the banks/corps and thus the politicians) for The Party. Its simply a subset of the same Boss class.  At least in WoW, everyone has a chance to do the best they are capable of.  Its all a matter of how much time/talent/focus and imagination you are willing to invest.

Sure there are dues to pay. You can't expect to start out on the same level as people who have invested hundreds or thousands of hours over the last almost 5 years. But if you are willing to invest the time/talent and focus, you can get your own "piece of the action" if thats what you want.  With Blizzards on going patches, content gets easier and thus more accessible to larger numbers of people as time goes on.

As for "players have too much power to be responsible mature players" thats been the perspective of those behind The Party since the concept began.  What people forget is that The Party is made up of people, the same as anyone else.  In fact, history demonstrates that those who make up The Party, tend to be much more sociopathic than one normally sees in the general population(power systems self select for such types).

One of the major reasons that WoW is so popular is that its open to such a wide range of people. It will run on *long* out dated hardware, and its easy to get in to and continue with.  After all these years its fairly polished, and it  has a LOT of content. Its all a matter of what a player is willing to invest in their play sessions.

 

 If you look at Canadian politics it's pretty much what we go up here and it seems to work very well. Free heath care, programs that help people find jobs ect. All free of charge.

 

As for the "players have too much power to be responsible mature players" the only real answer you gave clearly directed toward that is. "Those people are crazy", i know. It's not the players fault for being that way. You give a player a way to hold something over someones head It's like giving a bully that hurts animals a stake to dangle of the head of a starving dog and you implore it. This is suppose to be fun ?

 

 

The Canadian system is ANYTHING but "free". Its ALL paid for from taxes, and is much less effective than a true free market system would be. One of the great failings of the American system is that so much of it is mired in government intervention. Its ANYTHING but a free market.

As for the other, you are describing systems that pander to gankers and griefers. Look at all too many of the Asian games as an example.  Power corrupts and the more concentrated it is, the faster and more deeply it corrupts.  Thats also why systems of power self select for sociopaths.  After awhile people get tired of playing those types of games. I suspect thats why so many people in the west prefer PvE games.

Wow. You guys successfully turned an MMORPG discussion into a political debate. Bravo! I'll partake.

When you either want or don't want a law to pass, what do you do? Most people write their representative of congress or senate. Now, imagine yourself in the representative's shoes for a moment. Your office is FLOODED with letters regarding a new law that will be voted on in 3 months. About 99% of those letters say something along the lines of, "Please don't pass this law because it sucks," or "Please pass this law because I like it." And that's it. Not a lot to go on as to how it would really effect their lives. That last 1% actually has hard data in their letter, displaying how this law can positively and negatively impact the average citizen on a wide scale. Now you have some good data, and idea of how you're going to vote for the best possible outcome for those you represent. So now what do you do?

Nothing. You're swamped with other work to do, the law won't come up for 3 months, not to mention you DO have a personal life of your own to worry about. Astonishing!

Why is a game developer any different? Just because they don't immediately respond to you or immediately make the changes you and thousands of others are crying for doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't listening. They've got WORK to do, LIVES to live, and when they have the capability to work on your specific issue (which, as I mentioned in my previous post, takes a significant amount of time) they WILL.

I'm not saying there aren't problems. The community managers and developers can be more transparent as to what they're doing to fix issues, and possibly even how long it will take to fix issues. But because they don't suddenly drop everything they're doing to talk to everyone doesn't mean they aren't listening and fixing. Have a little faith.

Originally posted by Unibrow

Wow. You guys successfully turned an MMORPG discussion into a political debate. Bravo! I'll partake.

When you either want or don't want a law to pass, what do you do? Most people write their representative of congress or senate. Now, imagine yourself in the representative's shoes for a moment. Your office is FLOODED with letters regarding a new law that will be voted on in 3 months. About 99% of those letters say something along the lines of, "Please don't pass this law because it sucks," or "Please pass this law because I like it." And that's it. Not a lot to go on as to how it would really effect their lives. That last 1% actually has hard data in their letter, displaying how this law can positively and negatively impact the average citizen on a wide scale. Now you have some good data, and idea of how you're going to vote for the best possible outcome for those you represent. So now what do you do?

Nothing. You're swamped with other work to do, the law won't come up for 3 months, not to mention you DO have a personal life of your own to worry about. Astonishing!

Why is a game developer any different? Just because they don't immediately respond to you or immediately make the changes you and thousands of others are crying for doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't listening. They've got WORK to do, LIVES to live, and when they have the capability to work on your specific issue (which, as I mentioned in my previous post, takes a significant amount of time) they WILL.

I'm not saying there aren't problems. The community managers and developers can be more transparent as to what they're doing to fix issues, and possibly even how long it will take to fix issues. But because they don't suddenly drop everything they're doing to talk to everyone doesn't mean they aren't listening and fixing. Have a little faith.

Well, unlike developers, politicians spend most of their time working on funding for their next "election".  If you've ever had experience with them, you know what I mean. Its one fund raiser after another. Not to mention the various lobbyists who are such Good Citizens that they send you large "contributions", and are so helpful in crafting pieces of legislation. You don't actually believe that most politicians bother to read most of those massive bills do you? They "vote" the way their party leader tells them.  Developers on the other hand(the live team) are actually involved in the day to day operations of their game. Good ones are keeping track of feed back from the CM's and from the members of their team.  Unlike politics(whose impact can take years and years to show up) game changes tend to be watched more closely. Look at the uproar over SWG's NGE for example.

That has cost SOE *dearly* over the years. Its one of the most glaring examples of quickly outraging a huge part of ones player base in modern memory. It was even worse than Turbines closing down Asherons Call 2 just two months or so after releasing their new expansion for it. Politicians have it easier. Remember them passing the Bail Out for Bankers just before the last "election"? Even with 70% to 80%(or more in some districts) opposed to it? Yet most of them *still* got re "elected".  Any game company that pulled stunts like that would be long since out of business.

Originally posted by Unibrow

Wow. You guys successfully turned an MMORPG discussion into a political debate. Bravo! I'll partake.

When you either want or don't want a law to pass, what do you do? Most people write their representative of congress or senate. Now, imagine yourself in the representative's shoes for a moment. Your office is FLOODED with letters regarding a new law that will be voted on in 3 months. About 99% of those letters say something along the lines of, "Please don't pass this law because it sucks," or "Please pass this law because I like it." And that's it. Not a lot to go on as to how it would really effect their lives. That last 1% actually has hard data in their letter, displaying how this law can positively and negatively impact the average citizen on a wide scale. Now you have some good data, and idea of how you're going to vote for the best possible outcome for those you represent. So now what do you do?

Nothing. You're swamped with other work to do, the law won't come up for 3 months, not to mention you DO have a personal life of your own to worry about. Astonishing!

Why is a game developer any different? Just because they don't immediately respond to you or immediately make the changes you and thousands of others are crying for doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't listening. They've got WORK to do, LIVES to live, and when they have the capability to work on your specific issue (which, as I mentioned in my previous post, takes a significant amount of time) they WILL.

I'm not saying there aren't problems. The community managers and developers can be more transparent as to what they're doing to fix issues, and possibly even how long it will take to fix issues. But because they don't suddenly drop everything they're doing to talk to everyone doesn't mean they aren't listening and fixing. Have a little faith.

Let me start by saying, your post was wonderful to read. It's sound and logical. However we are talking about mmorgs here not the person calling the shots. I guess it was sort of my fault from relating government to a mmorpg but, that's how i view it. I am sorry i shared my opinion regarding that outlook.

Secondly i do not condone ganking or griefing. Those actions are responsibly on the heads of those players. The game does not invite this kind of attitude.

I am talking about useless rule in the structures and foundation in mmorgs. World of Warcraft is a good example to this and one most mmorpers can relate too. The game clearly invites juvenile actions from the player. Giving means and tools such as lockouts to be exploitable and wrecking havoc on other players. There are other forms like this in World of Warcraft but, I'll just  keep it simple and stick with just  the one for now.

Now don't get me wrong. Lockout server a good purpose. It slows down progression. It reduces exploits tactics used by RMT (real money traders aka gold farmers) and it give the development team more time designing new raiding content. Which we all can agree is a good thing.

However sometime the bad far way outs the good and the end goal has be lost in simple rules that have been put in place for protection. Personally I am one of those people that play many classes in Wow. I don't have just one character I stick to all the time. I am always looking to better gear out each of them given the time between upgrade development cycles but, fail every time to do so because of many factors. One being lockouts. The other are simply BoP items. I have 3 very good weapons on my Paladin that i can give to my Death Knight and Hunter. The Black Ice and Armageddon but, since they are BoP and not BoA (bind on account). Those items go to waste in my Paladin's bank.

Pretty much the point i am getting at is mmorpg for the most part are road blocking the player. Forcing them down 1 kind of play style and using gear. The very fundamental building blocks a mmorpg stands for.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't want easy content but, i don't want impossible options either.

I'll leave off on this point for now and wait for micro payments debate to kick in and come back have give my opinions on that subject.

Customers = 95 % of the times are crybabys begging for things to get easier, that's not the right way.

This is a great article and the author is perfectly right on everything.
Many companies should read and this article.The ones I have in mind right now are Acclaim Inc and NCSoft.

In any case,developers dont listen to the community and community managers are only trying to protect the devs from the community

Originally posted by Trunkoso

Customers = 95 % of the times are crybabys begging for things to get easier, that's not the right way.

CUSTOMERS equal $ MONEY $ If the majority of ones CUSTOMERS want it "easier" then there is money to be made.  Set up a different server or some such for the "hard core" or for the ones who want it "easier". Calling ones CUSTOMERS "crybabies" is MOST unwise.  For all of its faults(which are legion...) Blizzard makes more money than some nation state governments because of its approach.