The game has always been for casual players. Adding all that top end raid content seems to me to be their way of catering to hardcore players.

however, of all the mmo players I know (in real life) they only play WoW and they play casually with friends, family, etc. WoW is huge BECAUSE of casual players.

Mr. Grucza:
“most would agree that in order to have an MMORPG be successful and sustain a healthy player base, it must cater to every type of player that comes its way.”

It is only a ridiculous marketing attitude that wants us to believe that one MMO can attract all types of players. It does not matter what your preferences are; perma death or no death penatly, casual or hardcore crafting, family rating or mature rating, housing or no housing.

They want your money so they have to appeal to us all. Even when what we want is diametricaly opposed. This can only lead to staid formula MMO’s which end up pleasing no one and being no more than bearable to the majority.

So it is in the interests of MMO companies to convince us that what they see as the avergae fit, is the best fit for us all. That is why the mediocre, middle of the road model is perpetualy being trumpeted as what we want, no matter how many of us say it is not.

As a casual player that has his life guided by work, family and other things, it was always frustrating for me not that I can't get the best gear - never cared much about that, but that I couldn't see half of the game storyline-wise. 

I'm one of the players that reads every quest text and enjoys discovering things about history, conecting overarching story into more or less one whole and then it suddenly stops half way

I think it is a step into a right dirrection definitely. Give me a possibility to do some quests that wrap up the storyline for the expansion, even though I don't have to be the one to kill the hardest bosses, give everyone a possibility to interact with them and the overall story, give everyone some decent quest rewards from those that they can feel they acchieved something. Reserve the best gear for the people who can and are whilling to invest time and energy, but don't leave everyone else halfway - I did not buy half of the expansion, I bought the entire thing.

There could be a quest for example that you can let's say your goal is to go into the dungeon, find some thing and your goal is to run away from some boss instead of killing it ... that would be fun, and have some adrenaline involved :)

I think they are doing the right thing for everyone involved.

Originally posted by Sovrath

The game has always been for casual players. Adding all that top end raid content seems to me to be their way of catering to hardcore players.

however, of all the mmo players I know (in real life) they only play WoW and they play casually with friends, family, etc. WoW is huge BECAUSE of casual players.

Actually, I would say it was originially for the semi-hardcore. They tried to bring the hardcore 'feel' of EQ and the "I don't feel like killing myself to wait for a spawn that has a 7day timer"-mentality together. In the beginning it worked...but now they are leaning more towards the latter half; and taken it to the extreme.

They've also gotten lazy and still haven't changed their minds on what certain classes should do. Go to Heroisim vendor and Dressing Room one of the boots (like the plate healing), now find the matching tier 7 set; yep that's right the ONLY set that matches the boots is holy paladin. Go look at the tanking boots; only set that matches is the warrior set....just some suttle hints as to what role your class is suppose to play.

[i]BBL: Farming ToC(5R) for more purples[/i]

you wanna keep a mmo always fresh and healthy? never raise the level cap, ever. do that and you will always have three times the content you would if you raised the cap and had to make higher level content.

Imagine a wow at level 60 right now. not only you would still have northrend instances and raids, but all TBC, all vanilla azeroth. the amount of content available would be amazing and all the continents would be flourishing. outland now lives up to the legend, its a barren, deserted, dead place and like azeroth, is now only a bus stop.

Taking bullshitting around epics apart, most of WoW players know what high-end epics sound like. Furious, and now full Rentless with T2 weapons geared players will still have that "awe of epicness", as people with Mirmiron's head mount for example. Yogg-Saron 0K on 25 was the hardest encounter in WoW, next to C'Thun, a lil' bit harder than M'uru pre-nerfs. Now they nerfed it, but it's still a very hard encounter.

Here's a fact however: the time WoW had the most hardcore raiding dungeons was TBC.

From Karazhan to Sunwell(all pre-nerfs) your average guild took weeks to progress, including how gearing up from heroics was mandatory and those heroics couldn't be accessed without a key gained at revered reputation with the specific faction. Nightbane in Karazhan was harder than OS 3D 10 man and some Ulduar hardmodes.
Not to mention, the beautiful music and art in Karazhan, Black Temple and such, made TBC a trully epic expansion(You honestly can't call yourself a serious WoW raiderif you didn't do Black Temple and Karazhan pre-nerfs).

The 2 big problems with BC was:
1. Casuals: Casuals couldn't even see Hyjal, BT and some of them not even TK and SSC, because of attunement chains. Blizzard eventually removed these and made them give titles. You suddenly see casual guilds do all bosses till SSC/TK, 3/4 SSC, 3/4 TK and first bosses from Hyjal/BT(these had some blocks for unexperienced guilds like Gorefiend).
2. Raid stacking: While casual problem was semi, if not fully fixed, this was the big problem: raid stacking. You couldn't tank Illidan without a warrior(prot palas did it with BiS sunwell gear, and BiS sunwell gear is sometimes better than level 80 blues). You needed a shitload of shamans for Sunwell. Removing raid stacking, they also nerfed tanking by a lot, making it far easier for new people(hated this change).

Did they make the right choice with WOTLK? God knows, because even by keeping the "hardcore raids" with attunements that wouldn't allow average guilds to see more than 2-3 raids, WoW's subs would have stayed the same. But when someone starts a MMORPG, it should treat it as such. WoW isn't like TF2, where you jump in and have fun in a matter of seconds. MMOs (used to) were always designed as serious hobbies for gamers who had a lot fo time.

I really don't like the way WoW's going to. Heroics are easier than normal dungeons, and only 3-4 hardmodes are remotely hard. Raiding close to tank-and-spank normal modes isn't exactly fun nor "a choice". It's like hitting a loot pinata, not even giving a reason for "casual" raiders to improve their gameplay and try hardmodes since the ilvl difference is extremely low.

No idea if "money took their brains"(lol) but they didn't work as hard on WoW as they did in BC.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

The future of MMO's? Just look at how Blizzard implements things and you are right on target.

The good thing is : you can play WOW hardcore (highest difficulty in Raids, competition PvP and just wait till they introduce the BG's ratings again) and you can play WOW casual.

It just depends on you - the player - you choose. Choice.

But around 90% of WOW players are the guys who play for 2  hours a day.

WotlK made EVERYONE go to do Raids. (before that was a very small percentage). That in itself was a great achievement.

Patch 3.2 made EVERYONE go to do (heroic) dungeons.

Patch 3.3 will make everyone finding a group to do ALL dungeons while leveling up (thank you clustered dungeon servers).

CAT (or patch 4.0) will get EVERYONE in on the new Azeroth "destroyed" and this time WITH the new added features active players of WOW know (phasing , big rvr zone, real time destruction, mounted combat, sieges and dual specs).

--------------------------------

So the bottom line for WOW 2010 is .....playing 24/7....

You have 1 hour playing time: you hop in , do the LFG with tons of people to do a particular dungeon, you do it and still have time to help defend the rvr zone (if active) and do a BG.

A few minutes left? Do crafting or a solo quest to gain money.

You got 3 nights a week time for Raiding? No problem you can do that too... You want to have a prestigious PvP title in the BG's. No problem you can fight for 10 hours non stop each day to gain that title.

CHOICE is not casual.

Offering CHOICE means simply having 60%+ of the MMO market.

****IMPORTANT ****

Oh and BTW: to be succesful as a GROUP based  game mechanic you need to have a 80% success rate in doing group base stuff on YOUR level (meaning the level against your gear) AND to be assured you find enough people the next time to ... dare to play with throughout the stuff.

Video games always failed when you bumped into another level you couldn't possibly beat (you simply stopped playing).

So on average I think the Raids must have a "suces rate" of around 8 to 10 whipes or else the raid just stops.

Be it is easy mode or the optional hard mode (gear wise checked).

 Those are facts everyone knows alright, but keep on dreaming about stuff.

Blizzard delivers the above ... that's the difference.

And they do it IN STYLE

I wish people here could actually comprehend what is being said here^ because it is so very correct and very true...sadly the only logic in this thread will be drowed out by the constant hair pulling.

I was in a raid guild for about 6 months.  It was fun at first, but soon became a real grind.  I was putting my life on hold to do multiple raids in a week.  I won't ever do that again.  I play games to have fun, not to let it become work, which is exactly what a raiding guild is.

Blizzard knows that only about 5% of it's players are serious raiders, hence they throw them a bone or two once in a while, but the game is not geared towards them.

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by googajoob7

I ve often felt the point when the game started to go downhill was when Blizzard introduced faster leveling .I found it interesting the mmorpg.com also decided to run an article on a topic which many past and present WOW players are voicing concern . The game has become far to easy and aimed at the casual and younger player in general . It why a lot of long term players have left or are thinking about leaving . Blizzard will have to address this sooner or later because they cant just rely on the subs of casual players .

Then who should have cater too? The 2% hardcore audience that grow bored in 2 months because they breeze through any and all content and then unsubscribe? The FFA PVP crowd?

Sorry the game's base is casual, it will continue to be casual and WOW will do fine relying just on casual players.

And by the way, casual players are not always younger and vice versa. The most casual players are the 30 somethings like myself that have been in the market for years and do not have the 10-12 hours a day to play anymore because we have kids, homes, jobs, etc.... We are the real casual player and by no means a "younger player".

Agreed. I just don't think the 2% hardcore audience unsubscribed, because they are too addicted to wow for leaving, and they don't have nothing better to do.

Looking at what Blizz is doing now, i think they are slowly turning casuals into a more hardcore group of players, not in terms of hours play, but play style, raiders.

By making raids more accessible to more and more players, slowly holding their hands from easy raiding, easily doable from 30mins and up. And thereby slowly converting more and more players to become raiders, soon i believe we will start to cater to raid time schedule here and there...

Than there's the harder raid, but still can be break down into parts (wing) to complete, longer and harder, yet not too hard so players is able to continue to progress.

If Blizz is successful in doing this (looking at the instances full message, i believe they are going in the right direction), not only will they will have the 2% of hardcore players, but also 90% of the rest of casuals will also continue to stay with WoW.

This is a good method for a company, a good strategy, casual and yet successful...

Originally posted by Toquio3

you wanna keep a mmo always fresh and healthy? never raise the level cap, ever. do that and you will always have three times the content you would if you raised the cap and had to make higher level content.

Imagine a wow at level 60 right now. not only you would still have northrend instances and raids, but all TBC, all vanilla azeroth. the amount of content available would be amazing and all the continents would be flourishing. outland now lives up to the legend, its a barren, deserted, dead place and like azeroth, is now only a bus stop.

Mudflation, google this term, there are plenty of opinions on it. They would have done better to have implemented their new path of the titans character progression in vanilla rather increasing levels for subsequent expacks.

The next expansion looks like they are trying to meet some middle ground on that score, we all know that the real reason they went half way on levels though, plenty of milk in the cow yet $$$$$

Makes me wonder what they have in store for their top secret next gen mmo, maybe do away with level progression approach?

 Seven months ago when I started playing WOW I thought that WOW was a MMORPG with some raiding. I heard about raiding but I thought that raiding was just one of several things that you could do in WOW. How I was wrong.

Now I know better. WOW is a multiplayer online raiding game. Raids are the main and only purpose of the game. Leveling to 80 is just a tutorial or a nuisance. The huge beautiful world of WOW is just a bus stop for leveling. I suggest that they should remove the leveling. Every new player would start at level 80. They should remove the whole world outside the instances. You would log into a chatroom, group with some friends and then together you would go directly to an instance for raiding.

Let me tell how I'm playing WOW. I'm playing WOW from monday to friday about 3 hours every day, during the weekend about 6 hours every day. Now the list how I like playing WOW starting with the most fun things:

1. Exploring the huge and beautiful world of WOW. I like just riding through the world. I like exploring the small hidden valleys, exploring what's behind the hills. One of the most fun moments I had was when I found the hidden passage from Burning steps into the hidden valley above Nortshire Abbey.

2. Killing the monsters. I'm a warrior and I love fighting with a sword. For me fighting with ranged weapons is dull. I have my camera stationed just behind my character - almost first person view. The feel of fighting in WOW is great and also the monsters look fantastic. I'm fighting the monsters not because of the drop or XP but just for the fun of it. Several times I'm attacking some camps even If I don't have missions for it and even if I don't get any drop or XP.

3. Doing missions. I love doing missions. I agree that they could be much more interesting. I'm level 63 and I'm still doing missions at much lover levels if I find them, even If I get only 40 XP for them.

4. Studying the history and lore of WOW. I have read o lot about it and the lore is just amazing.

And yes I still didn't do any instance. I will soon start with the low level instances with the purpose of exploring them because the instances are very beautiful and they look fantastic.

And what kind of player am I? Casual or hardcore. I think that most WOW players will say that I'm a stupid player.

Originally posted by arctarus

Looking at what Blizz is doing now, i think they are slowly turning casuals into a more hardcore group of players, not in terms of hours play, but play style, raiders.

By making raids more accessible to more and more players, slowly holding their hands from easy raiding, easily doable from 30mins and up. And thereby slowly converting more and more players to become raiders, soon i believe we will start to cater to raid time schedule here and there...

Than there's the harder raid, but still can be break down into parts (wing) to complete, longer and harder, yet not too hard so players is able to continue to progress.

If Blizz is successful in doing this (looking at the instances full message, i believe they are going in the right direction), not only will they will have the 2% of hardcore players, but also 90% of the rest of casuals will also continue to stay with WoW.

This is a good method for a company, a good strategy, casual and yet successful...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

agreed

Originally posted by zpassenger

Originally posted by arctarus

Looking at what Blizz is doing now, i think they are slowly turning casuals into a more hardcore group of players, not in terms of hours play, but play style, raiders.

By making raids more accessible to more and more players, slowly holding their hands from easy raiding, easily doable from 30mins and up. And thereby slowly converting more and more players to become raiders, soon i believe we will start to cater to raid time schedule here and there...

Than there's the harder raid, but still can be break down into parts (wing) to complete, longer and harder, yet not too hard so players is able to continue to progress.

If Blizz is successful in doing this (looking at the instances full message, i believe they are going in the right direction), not only will they will have the 2% of hardcore players, but also 90% of the rest of casuals will also continue to stay with WoW.

This is a good method for a company, a good strategy, casual and yet successful...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

agreed

I completely agree.  When I was in college, I had time to raid 3 nights a week for multiple hours at a time.  Now that I have a job and am married, I still want to play, but I don't want to spend that many hours playing.  The new system is wonderful.  The only people that seem opposed to it are those that argue about "putting the time in" to get epics.  From the bitterness displayed here and elsewhere by these individuals, I have a feeling that this isn't the true issue to most of them, whethere or not they want/can admit it.  It seems more like an issue of wanting to stand out for their accomplishments (IE: epic gear).

Blizzard is doing a fine job integrating 10 man, 10 man heroic, 25 man, and 25 man heroic raids.  With this many options, the hardcore raiders will still be above the casual raiders, but now the casual raiders are within a stone's throw, which seems very upsetting to some!

I dig their system. I have been having more fun in WoW lately than ever before. Because I don't have to log in for 4 hours a night. Some nights 1 hour, some 2 and on raid nights 4-5 ok. But the daily grind of every night play...have ended. Happy that it takes less time to do things, other MMOs should take a serious look at these changes. They are overall for the better. It allows hardcore and casual alike to enjoy the game.

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

AMEN BROTHA! or SISTA!!!

Originally posted by garrett

I dig their system. I have been having more fun in WoW lately than ever before. Because I don't have to log in for 4 hours a night. Some nights 1 hour, some 2 and on raid nights 4-5 ok. But the daily grind of every night play...have ended. Happy that it takes less time to do things, other MMOs should take a serious look at these changes. They are overall for the better. It allows hardcore and casual alike to enjoy the game.

Couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by remixedcat

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

 

AMEN BROTHA! or SISTA!!!

"its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality" - I think you are wrong, its more an indicative of I WANT TO HAVE FUN achieving it over I WANT TO GRIND FOR IT AND HOPE NOBODY GRINDS AS MUCH AS I DO. If I where you I would concentrate in "I WANT TO WORK FOR IT" in real life because that's the "sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession". If you are so worried with economy, I would like to tell you that having someone loosing time in a virtual world for more than 5 hours a day is really bad for economy, you will earn less and spend less, you will also wont have a family and  children that will help to pay the taxes that will cover your retirement :P

Originally posted by googajoob7

Why should a casual player have similar gear to someone thats not . Whats gone is the investment in a character . Its only a game but its indicative of the I WANT IT NOW over I WANT TO WORK FOR IT mentality . The sort of thing that led to borrowing which led to the credit crunch which led to the global recession . If someone has time and is willing to put in the work they should have superior items , armor and weapons . This does nt happen in WOW anymore . Its why the game has lost its edge and is dull and boring these days . A Cataclysm needs to happen but not just to Warcraft but to Blizzards attitude to the game .Otherwise its just more of the same . A con job .

This is exactly why some of us hate this casual approach. If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise. It doesn't matter that this is a game the mentality that "I Worked Hard for This" is still there.

BTW: I do find it funny that I (along with others) said the Lazy Casuals (ie those who want it all for nothing; even the Casuals hate them) would still complain that the game was to hard and how they couldn't devote 4hrs twice a week to raid (even though they probably play 6hrs a day) and that Blizzard would cave again and make epics even easier to get. This was when 10mans were first announced. I also brought it up again when 10man versions of 25mans were announced. And I'll bring it up now that 5man versions of 10mans ( ToC[5NR]); epics should never drop like candy in 5mans.

I suppose the main reason I get irritated over this is because I started this game back in 2006 and I didn't start raiding until Mid-TBC; I CHOOSE to take the time to learn my class and the raids. I'm just as busy as any employed person, yet I still make time to raid; you should too.

Originally posted by Dyner

 If I put more work into something I expect to get more than the person who doesn't. Take for example you work in an office and you bust your arse every day but the slacker in the next room, who barely does any work..shows up late...etc. gets the promotion or the raise.

 

Do you REALLY want to judge your recreational activity by the same standard as your job? REALLY? Because that's the last thing I want to do.