Originally posted by Quirhid

All the excitement that some seem to think that comes with harsh death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. Your excitement comes from the same source as where gamblers get their rush. In my opinion, harsh death penalty only gets people to wimp out on many things, in essence miss out on stuff. Furthermore, when people take no risks they learn very little.

 

Lets say its a level-based game. You only kill mobs that are lower than you because you don't want to take the risk of dying. Battle is easy, and no doubt you'll soon be bored out of your mind. Is this how you like it?

 

I wont deny that extra excitement would be welcome, but it is onlyl CPR for the game if the gameplay doesn't seem all that good. When you see past the gambler's rush, you don't want to see just "harsh death penalties" but actually great games with great gameplay.

I get what you're saying but having done naked corpse runs or bank armor corpse runs (anyone that's played EQ 1 know's what i'm talking about) have their entertainment.  Especially on a raid.  It does add immersion and also adds skill.  One poster above said they'd be more cautious with a harsh penelty... That's a bad thing?  Isn't the point to test gain skill and figure things  out?

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.
Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.
Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.
For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).
While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

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Says you. I don't need harsh penalty to be excited or have fun. NO downing the boss and wasting 20 min is harsh enough. I have a life. Frustration is not for games, but for real life.
Sure you like frustration. Thank god that MOST players & developers agree with me.

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I do not think most developers agree with you, they simply develop the game they have been told to make. A game that in this day and age is the fruit of what ta sad MMO community has created. One day many players will wake up from the coma and realise that for a game to be fun it needs tougher options.

Originally posted by Palebane

I get what you are saying. But I have to admit, that even a 5 min. corpse run is enough of an inconvenience for me to play more carefully.

I agree with you and the OP. Death must have pain to make survival have meaning, and I hate corpse runs. I would like the option of ressing in place (for an xp cost).

I would also prefer to get rid of WoW's repair bills, since they discourage casual grouping for instances and raids. Let the rewards match the performance of the group.

If you want immersion... have permideath... anything less isn't immersive.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by tyorke

i remember i was doing a group quests in lotro and we were dying to come back to the city fast,
i was hunter so i didnt need that much but i used it even in solo play. i didnt play other classes.

also i was fighting careless, i was never worry to die.

so i think something was missing.

 

i dont have much time to play now, so i wouldnt like to have a big penalty, but a little exp lost should be a must imo.

 

That is simple. Just make the cost in gold for dying higher than the travel cost. No one dies intentionally in WOW because of repair costs (the time you saved is not enough to grind back the gold) and not too hard so people will stop trying out new bosses, or new tactics.

That will never happen. EQ showed us that. Infact people will try even harder because there will be more prestige in downing one of those bosses that not many others can. In the end there will be a proven tactic on the web and everyone will get a shot at it

I have no problems with games being fun and entertaining but they should never cater to people that want instant gratification. I have to agree with the OP, death has to sting for you to feel something within the game. Unfortunally the new generation of gamers agrees with you. They have voted with their wallets and they voted World of Warcraft

Originally posted by Ybiter

I get what you're saying but having done naked corpse runs or bank armor corpse runs (anyone that's played EQ 1 know's what i'm talking about) have their entertainment.  Especially on a raid.  It does add immersion and also adds skill.  One poster above said they'd be more cautious with a harsh penelty... That's a bad thing?  Isn't the point to test gain skill and figure things  out?

Not for most players.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by tyorke

i remember i was doing a group quests in lotro and we were dying to come back to the city fast,
i was hunter so i didnt need that much but i used it even in solo play. i didnt play other classes.

also i was fighting careless, i was never worry to die.

so i think something was missing.

 

i dont have much time to play now, so i wouldnt like to have a big penalty, but a little exp lost should be a must imo.

 

That is simple. Just make the cost in gold for dying higher than the travel cost. No one dies intentionally in WOW because of repair costs (the time you saved is not enough to grind back the gold) and not too hard so people will stop trying out new bosses, or new tactics.

In wow just remove all gear and go suicide simple no repair cost that way.

Originally posted by Quirhid

All the excitement that some seem to think that comes with harsh death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay. Your excitement comes from the same source as where gamblers get their rush. In my opinion, harsh death penalty only gets people to wimp out on many things, in essence miss out on stuff. Furthermore, when people take no risks they learn very little.

 

Lets say its a level-based game. You only kill mobs that are lower than you because you don't want to take the risk of dying. Battle is easy, and no doubt you'll soon be bored out of your mind. Is this how you like it?

 

I wont deny that extra excitement would be welcome, but it is onlyl CPR for the game if the gameplay doesn't seem all that good. When you see past the gambler's rush, you don't want to see just "harsh death penalties" but actually great games with great gameplay.

The sense of risk is what makes things exciting.  Just because gambling involves risk, and because gambling is "bad," it doesn't mean that everything involving risk is "bad."  You're commiting the fallacy of the undistributed middle.  And when you say "when people take no risks they learn very little" you're speaking as if you take more risks when there's no risk, which is a contradiction.

The problem with WoW is that there's very little tangible risk.  The risk in WoW comes from spending time doing something that won't result in advancing your character (e.g., raiding with a bunch of losers).  So it has a temporal risk, which is essentially the same as every other type of risk, but the only difference is that you don't feel the risk in WoW.  For example, when you die in another game and lose an item, you essentially risk the time it takes to get that item again.  Almost all risk in games can be given in terms of time lost.  What I'm proposing is simply that that risk is more tangible (e.g., item loss).  

What this kind of tangible risk means is that your character can actually go backward in effectiveness if you make bad decisions, but it also means that you can go forward quickly with the right decisions.  The net result should be that if you aren't a complete idiot, you will progress.  It shouldn't be exactly a zero sum game, but instead slightly in favor of the player at all times.  This is sufficient for exciting gameplay.

I see in your signature that you're playing EVE.  That game has a good risk vs reward system, IMO.  What's your opinion on that one?

Originally posted by bloodaxes

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by tyorke

i remember i was doing a group quests in lotro and we were dying to come back to the city fast,
i was hunter so i didnt need that much but i used it even in solo play. i didnt play other classes.

also i was fighting careless, i was never worry to die.

so i think something was missing.

 

i dont have much time to play now, so i wouldnt like to have a big penalty, but a little exp lost should be a must imo.

 

That is simple. Just make the cost in gold for dying higher than the travel cost. No one dies intentionally in WOW because of repair costs (the time you saved is not enough to grind back the gold) and not too hard so people will stop trying out new bosses, or new tactics.

In wow just remove all gear and go suicide simple no repair cost that way.

That only removes the initial gear damage on death.  If you res at a spirit healer all the gear in your bags will be damaged. 

WoW did not eliminate 'death travel' but these days it makes very little sense to do it.  I actually had a guildy do it yesterday and all the officers were wondering why he bothered to do it the hard way when just following the road would get him there faster and with minimal risk. 

bleh - not a fan of harsh death penalties

My internet has been popping off lately and I take many deaths I can't control until this all gets solved - I'm tired of dying in vanguard and being punished for it.

Times ppl don't deserve a penalty.

- Being trained - how were you to know someone would run past you in desperation?

- Connection breaks - how were you to know the internet was going to be a wad right now?

- Server problems - how can you plan for the server to stop responding quickly because some yahoo is flooding the server with /emotes?

The code tho to distribute a penalty never factors in any of the above!

I don't lose immersion - I lose interest when I get penalized for problems I couldn't control. There should be a limit on how many penalties there are - this IS a game we are talking about right? A GAME. Retarding my progress artificially sounds like something they are doing because their content isn't good enough to extend my playtime.

Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.

Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.

Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.

For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).

While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

Um... OP. When you played WoW... what server(s) did you play on? PvE... or PVP?

WoW has more potential once you don't pussyfoot around in PvE servers... So does Everquest... or any MMO for that fact. Massive death penalty? Nooo... you don't need that to feel "immersed". Being hunted, and hunting others makes you feel adrenaline pump when you ambush someone just for the sole purpose of ganking them, or fight back an invading force.

Fear immerses you more than a stupid re-grind your level time sink... sorry.

sting? like hp lower over time? debuff?

i hate debuff penalty

debuff is anoying and easy.

dungeon runners spawn back and mob hp  is same as it left off. die and spawn die and spawn too easy make it boring.

exp loss and item loss is great. it make player caustion.

I'm too busy playing Aion to say much, but just wanted to say I agree with the OP.

I rather like the way it is done in TCoS, where you get rewarded for not dying with a permanent buff, well at least until you DO die. It had the same effect of making you careful.

I'm not really fond of corpse runs. I prefer XP loss, and item loss or degrade.

I dont like being beaten by the game so I rarely die in any PVE. I dont need a death penalty for that, but I also dont mind if there is one. The ppl who I play MMO's with usually think the same.

Ppl who keep dieing simply because a death doesnt have much influence are not gamers imo. In my experience those also usually play dps toons and play bad because they let go of the basic group stuff, not being aware of possible adds from patrols, or not keeping an eye on the healer in the group for example. Simply said, they are bad teamplayers.

So I can have immersion in any game, as long as I team up with likeminded players. Dont get me wrong though,  this doesnt mean Im a cookiecutter fan. We usually make a sport out of beating an opponent in an unusual way. But we do with care and preperation if needed.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.

Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.

Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.

For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).

While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

 

Says you. I don't need harsh penalty to be excited or have fun. NO downing the boss and wasting 20 min is harsh enough. I have a life. Frustration is not for games, but for real life.

Sure you like frustration. Thank god that MOST players & developers agree with me.

All I will say on this matter is that without a harsh death penalty, you cannot feel the rush that comes when you are facing mortal danger.  I'm not saying one is better than the other, just saying that it is 100% fact that you cannot experience that same rush in a game without a harsh death penalty.  It's up to you whether or not you prefer it.  In some people's opinion, that rush makes up for all the other annoyances.  It's all about gimme now versus long term rewards.

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.

Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.

Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.

For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).

While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

 

Says you. I don't need harsh penalty to be excited or have fun. NO downing the boss and wasting 20 min is harsh enough. I have a life. Frustration is not for games, but for real life.

Sure you like frustration. Thank god that MOST players & developers agree with me.

 

All I will say on this matter is that without a harsh death penalty, you cannot feel the rush that comes when you are facing mortal danger.  I'm not saying one is better than the other, just saying that it is 100% fact that you cannot experience that same rush in a game without a harsh death penalty.  It's up to you whether or not you prefer it.  In some people's opinion, that rush makes up for all the other annoyances.  It's all about gimme now versus long term rewards.

All I will say on this is that I speak for everyone on the subject of.... Okay.

Personally, harsh death penalty? What are we talking about here? People should really be a bit more specific on what they mean. Character deletion? A three hour trek back to where you were? Lose of level? A very good chance of losing all of a characters gear (and variations)? Loose a pvp rank?

I've played them all and the only thing that gives me the rush is when a game is slow enough that everything isn't instant death for small errors (headshot LOL. Wooo, boss hits for 3/4 tank life total every swing) or the continuous build up of relatively easy goals that is bound to have an eventual mistake that leads to death and starting it again. The penalty for death ,specifically, was meaningless. The struggle to stay alive( or not die) and accomplish the goal is what matters to me for that rush feeling.

Some of my favorite experiences in gaming come from times (or games) that had very light pentalties for death. These were the "rule" breaking moments. Defeating the status quo. Defeating what was thought to be unbeatable. If there is no challenge and significant meaning to the encounter itself, death holds no meaning for me even when the penalty is harsh.

Ridiculous, how is that part of immersion.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 Penalties are okay, but overly harsh penalties are no good.  Item decay, ok.  Loss of non binded items at random. ok.  Running back to your corpse to pick up items. Ok.

One thing I hated was CoXs debt system.. ich.. it slowed progression to a crawl and really made me not even want to keep playing. Too harsh of costs just make me not even want to play due to the fact, part of the gameplay is dying.. and if I know I'm gunna die at some point, I already know if the penalty is too harsh then I just won't have a good time getting back to the "fun".

 

So stinging penalties, okay.. crippling penalties... no dice

Red by me.

I agree with this sentiment as far as death penalties go.  Corpse runs were some of the best time my friends, even strangers and I had back in AC1.

So count me in the item decay, loss of non-bound/not covered items, corpse runs, money loss catagory.

Going too far is extreme loss of  XP and loss of levels. 

If a developer wants to institute this I suggest the AC1 type of XP penalty upon death.  When you died, you received a "vitae" penalty where by you suffered a 5% skill reduction penalty that had a small XP amount associated with it that you needed to burn off to burn of the 5% penalty.  You could die successive times and accumulate up to a max 40% vitae penalty.  The nice thing about this was that even though you had to XP to get rid of this reduction of skill penalty, the XP still counted towards your next level so you were never moving backwards XP wise.  I thought that was a good compromise between XP/level loss and lame death penalties.

Of course you had item loss, money loss, and corpse runs in addition to the vitae penalty.  AC1 for me felt like they had it right as far as death penalties were concerned.  Bad enough that you wanted to avoid it, but not so bad that you dreaded the game because of it.

Harsh death penalties definitely contribute to the excitement factor of a game, (and make it more worthwhile in my opinion) however it is not a factor of immersion.

DAOC had pretty light death penalties yet I really felt part of that world in a way few games ever have. WOW was pretty good,and EVE so far is the best IMO, but thats because its easier to envision myself as a human corp raider/pod pilot than a kobold or elf.

Originally posted by pencilrick

If you want to treasure your rewards, know relief upon making it safely to a town or village, and feel the hair on the back of your neck prickle when you pass through a dark forest or traverse a dangerous dungeon, then there MUST be a death penalty with some "sting" to it.

Otherwise, no rewards are valued much, making it to a town or village feels no different than being in the dark forest or dank dungeon, and the overall gaming experience is bland.

Some will say, "there is no fun in dying and being penalized".  I counter this by saying there is no fun in enduring lame, lifeless gameplay.  I'd rather spend 97% of my time feeling exicted (and the other 3% feeling frustrated), than all 100% feeling bored out of my mind.

For an MMO to feel "alive", there must be consequences for careless gameplay, and even the occasional consequence for excellent gameplay (who can tell when a wandering giant or griffin comes along and smacks you down).

While "polish" has its merits (i.e. WOW), no game will be loved without "immersion," and immersion comes from feeling.

all the feeling youask for happen in only one way

first the game have first person view servers locked in fpv

2 then death penalty ,why?

imagine theres a rogue in wow you see him way before he can jump you 

but if your first person view and view gets blry because of sin

can you say major adrenalin rush,on top your scared of dying because 

of dp

but since its not for everybody 

you dedicate a server to hardcore 

imagine an eq1 server in fpv

hell ya now we re talking