Originally posted by beeker255

Originally posted by Golarum

WOW, do you even read before posting? I will try to say it more slowly...

KIS 2010   i s   n o t   t h e   p r o b l e m,   I   n e v e r    h a d   a n y    i s s u e s   r e l a t i n g    t o   k a s p e r s k y.   R e a d   m y   

f i r s t   p o s t   i n   t h i s   t o p i c   a n d   y o u   w i l l   s e e    t h a t   m y    p r o b l e m   h a s   n o t h i n g   t o   d o   w i t h    m y

a n t i - v i r u s.

Stop knitpicking my posts, read the whole post and you'll see that I'm telling you that GG is a piece of sh*t of a program and it is causing ALL SORTS of bugs, not only A V bugs.

D o   y o u   u n d e r s t a n d   m e   n o w   ?

 

If im being honest and remember I have no side on this "debate" but spacing your letters like that actually made it harder for me to read....Just providing you some feedback to your question.

LOL! Thanks for the feedback :) I will know for the next time...

Originally posted by Golarum

WOW, do you even read before posting? I will try to say it more slowly...

KIS 2010   i s   n o t   t h e   p r o b l e m,   I   n e v e r    h a d   a n y    i s s u e s   r e l a t i n g    t o   k a s p e r s k y.   R e a d   m y   

f i r s t   p o s t   i n   t h i s   t o p i c   a n d   y o u   w i l l   s e e    t h a t   m y    p r o b l e m   h a s   n o t h i n g   t o   d o   w i t h    m y

a n t i - v i r u s.

Stop knitpicking my posts, read the whole post and you'll see that I'm telling you that GG is a piece of sh*t of a program and it is causing ALL SORTS of bugs, not only A V bugs.

D o   y o u   u n d e r s t a n d   m e   n o w   ?

 

As I said:

-> KIS 2010 is the problem. This is confirmed on the kaspersky forums.

Because you "n e v e r h a d a n y i s s u e s r e l a t i n g t o k a s p e r s k y" is completely irrelevant (gameguard has to use low level system access to block hacks that use low level access - and once you are in low level problems and conflicts can happen in some circumstances - even more so if an internet security tool has a bug with its rules management, like the *newly released* (aka "not properly tested")  KIS 2010 (KIS 2009 is fine).

That said, if you uninstall KIS 2010 and it still doesn't work, then you probably also have another conflict on your system (or perhaps even a bug with gameguard - everything is possible, remember, we are testing beta software). But until you do, it is really pointless to talk more about this.

Anyway, in my case I had 2 choices:

1. Act and replace KIS 2010 with NOD32 (KIS 2009 would also have been an option). -> and PLAY Aion.     (this took less than 5 minutes)

OR

2. whine and complain on forums refusing to remove KIS 2010 -> and NOT play Aion.

Guess which option I took?

Originally posted by BigMango

Originally posted by Golarum

WOW, do you even read before posting? I will try to say it more slowly...

KIS 2010   i s   n o t   t h e   p r o b l e m,   I   n e v e r    h a d   a n y    i s s u e s   r e l a t i n g    t o   k a s p e r s k y.   R e a d   m y   

f i r s t   p o s t   i n   t h i s   t o p i c   a n d   y o u   w i l l   s e e    t h a t   m y    p r o b l e m   h a s   n o t h i n g   t o   d o   w i t h    m y

a n t i - v i r u s.

Stop knitpicking my posts, read the whole post and you'll see that I'm telling you that GG is a piece of sh*t of a program and it is causing ALL SORTS of bugs, not only A V bugs.

D o   y o u   u n d e r s t a n d   m e   n o w   ?

 

As I said:

-> KIS 2010 is the problem. This is confirmed on the kaspersky forums.

Because you "n e v e r h a d a n y i s s u e s r e l a t i n g t o k a s p e r s k y" is completely irrelevant (gameguard has to use low level system access to block hacks that use low level access - and once you are in low level problems and conflicts can happen in some circumstances - even more so if an internet security tool has a bug with its rules management, like the *newly released* (aka "not properly tested")  KIS 2010 (KIS 2009 is fine).

 

That said, if you uninstall KIS 2010 and it still doesn't work, then you probably also have another conflict on your system (or perhaps even a bug with gameguard - everything is possible, remember, we are testing beta software). But until you do, it is really pointless to talk more about this.

 

Anyway, in my case I had 2 choices:

1. Act and replace KIS 2010 with NOD32 (KIS 2009 would also have been an option). -> and PLAY Aion.     (this took less than 5 minutes)

OR

2. whine and complain on forums refusing to remove KIS 2010 -> and NOT play Aion.

 

Guess which option I took?

 

 

 

So if I understand right, you are saying that the years of GG bugging games and people's computers is all KIS 2010's fault? Even though it didn't even exist back then?

You say if I downgrade to 2009 and continue having problems, it's still not GG, but something else in my computer?

Or maybe all the people who are having problems with GG and who are not using Kaspersky, is that also Kasperskys fault? Kaspersky 2010 is bugging people's computers even though they never had it on their computer?

Everyone who is having problems have ONE thing in common, and it is GG. People have Kaspersky, NOD32, Bitdefender, Norton, McAfee, AVG and other AVs, and they are having problems, but that is not GGs fault, it's kaspersky that is causing everyone to have problems right?

If you actually read people's posts with problems relating to GG, you will notice that not even 5% of the people having problems have Kaspersky.

But like you said, it is pointless to continue to talk about it, because even if I bring all the arguments of the world, you will answer with Kaspersky is the problem. I wouldn't be surprised if I saw you say that WWII happened because of Kaspersky lol.

My choice has been made a while ago like a lot of people, as long as they use GG, I will not play Aion. If it's a F2P game, it wouldn't matter as much, but an ''elite'' game like Aion should have it's own core anti-hack system. When I pay for a Ferrari, I do not want it to be using Oldsmobile parts.

NcSoft is the biggest mmorpg company in the world, they should not be using crap in their games. This is not their first game, they know what they are doing, or at least I hope they do...

Peace

---

Originally posted by Golarum

---

Originally posted by BigMango

 

That said, if you uninstall KIS 2010 and it still doesn't work, then you probably also have another conflict on your system (or perhaps even a bug with gameguard - everything is possible, remember, we are testing beta software). But until you do, it is really pointless to talk more about this.

---

 
So if I understand right, you are saying that the years of GG bugging games and people's computers is all KIS 2010's fault? Even though it didn't even exist back then?

 

You say if I downgrade to 2009 and continue having problems, it's still not GG, but something else in my computer?

---

No, read my post again.

I am saying:

1. If you have KIS 2010 installed we know it is the problem due to a bug in KIS 2010.

2. If KIS 2010 is not installed and you still have problems then it could be something else, or even gameguard -> we are testing beta software, problems can happen. (but to know this you first need to uninstall KIS 2010).

---

Originally posted by Golarum
Everyone who is having problems have ONE thing in common, and it is GG.

---

You see, on one side we have people complaining day long about hackers and botters, and on the other side we have people complaining when a program tries to do something against it.

The issue here is that hacks use low level system calls.

To block them, gameguard has to use low level system access. And when you are in low level space issues and/or conflicts can happen in some circumstances (depending on software, drivers, etc.... installed).

Of course gameguard is not perfect, it doesn't prevent everything. But still, it blocks many hacks which is better than doing nothing.

---

Originally posted by Golarum
My choice has been made a while ago like a lot of people, as long as they use GG, I will not play Aion.

---

You should direct your anger at the hackers and the botters. This is where the problem is. Gameguard is doing a very complicated job in low level system space to fight the hacks. Without the hackers we wouldn't be talking about this problem today.

Anyway, I hope they will fix this issue asap so that the concerned minority can play without trouble. I know how frustrating it can be.

Originally posted by BigMango 

 

---

Originally posted by Golarum
My choice has been made a while ago like a lot of people, as long as they use GG, I will not play Aion.

---

 

You should direct your anger at the hackers and the botters. This is where the problem is. Gameguard is doing a very complicated job in low level system space to fight the hacks. Without the hackers we wouldn't be talking about this problem today. 

Here you could not be more wrong.  Yes, be angry at hackers and cheaters for doing what they do but the responsibility of GameGuard and other such systems from developers rests soley with the developers/publishers as it is they who make the decision to punish legitimate users for the few who act wrongly.  Just like with DRM the problem is not that there are those that are not honest, the problem is that companies pass the burden of those dishonest folks on to the honest folks.  Developers are the ones who allow a program like GameGuard to install without informing the user and without providing a full uninstaller even leaving it installed and active after a game is uninstalled. Developers are the one who focus resources not on writing more secure code that is less hackable but rather on shifting the resources, lesser and cheaper too, to having users have to prove their legitimacy or honesty with their own resources. 

Make no mistake, cheaters and hackers are a problem - but the real problem with these things is the cheap developers who farm out the responsibility of their business challenge to legitimate and responsible users and violate their trust and security in doing so.  And on top of all that, the cheaters and hackers (just like those who steal software and music/movies) are hardly daunted by these measures and in no time can hack/cheat/steal whatever they want while legitimate and honest users are further and further burdened and often denied use of what that paid for.

Originally posted by BigMango

 

---

Originally posted by AgtSmith

 

Gameguard is fairly described as a rootkit so use it at your own peril

---

 

If your AV wrongly flags software as rootkit it doesn't mean it is.

People are using lousy AVs with outdated with/and/or not up to date virus definitions.

Kaspersky is very poor on this one. Gameguard is used in dozens of games, the least they could do is update their defs.

You are simply wrong, GameGuard installs hidden drivers, hidden services, hooks legitimate system processes, and installs without user permission or notification and does not provide an uninstaller - this is the dictionary definition of a rootkit which is a methodology of operation.  Again, whether it does anything malicious is irrelevant and not what I am claiming, the methods it uses to do what it does are, however, quite certainly rightly called dangerous and inappropriate.

A/V programs look for activity that is inappropriate, this is called heuristics, and GameGuard gets so commonly flagged because it is acting as malware does usurping the operating system and user to operate.  Commercial A/V, like many commercial entities, have built in exceptions for other commercial software - the fact that one or two or three A/V programs do not ignore GameGuard doesn't make its methodology valid or secure, it just means that one commercial entity bowed to pressure from another (typically a lawsuit threat) in order to avoid controversy.  GameGuard violates system protocols, flaunts software best practices, and violates the integrity of the operating systems built in security measures.

Originally posted by BigMango 

---

Originally posted by AgtSmith
the methods it employs are most certainly classifiable as rootkit and malware like.

---

 

Of course, what were you thinking?

Gameguard needs to use low level systems calls to catch/block hacks/botting/cheat tools that work on those lower system levels. (of course it doesn't block all of them, but something is better than nothing).

Nothing surprising here. Update your system security tool or use one that works properly. And if I were you I would ask for a refund from kaspersky.

Again, the need or the purpose is irrelevant to the activity.  Cops need to do things to catch bad guys and even staunch advocates of personal freedom would acknowledge the need to have police.  But that doesn't mean we allow cops to usurp constitutional controls and safeguards that, even if usurped with good intentions, are ripe for abuse.  GameGuard first and foremost doesn't stop cheaters as they can easily subvert its detection, so it only affects legitimate and honest users by installing without their consent or knowledge, refusing to uninstall, and usurping the users control of their own system for the purpose of enforcing its programming, whether innocent or not.

Much of this was hashed out in the other thread I cited early on so I won't re hash it all, suffice to say that GameGuard is a major problem, not very effective at stopping cheaters, and highly dubious in its method of operation and hidden installation as well as its lack of an uninstaller - such attributes should by default give a user pause as honest programs do not need to subvert and deceive they very users they are supposed to serve.

I am currently testing it on a virtual machine with Windows 7.  My understanding as I start testing is that Windows 7 restricts GameGuard's ability to hook processes and run its hidden drivers, like Vista enforced a stricter security profile than XP so does Windows 7 verse Vista.  Due to this GameGuard, until recently, would not even run on Windows 7 as the operating system would not allow it to usurp the system.  New versions of GameGuard now work with Windows 7 so I am trying to get a sense of if they have changed the way it works to be more 'legitimate' or simply found other ways to usurp the operating systems security constraints, from what I have read and heard from others I believe they have changed GameGuard on Windows 7 to me less invasive, but that is just based on some initial information and it doesn't to me knowledge change how it works on Vista and XP.  So far, A/V programs that detected GameGuard's illicit behavior in XP/Vista are not detecting it Windows 7 from my testing, I am trying to look deeper though to see if the behavior has stopped or simply is not being detected though really knowing that may be hard to answer.

My best advice is if you are on XP or Vista then run GameGuard at your own risk, particularly if you are not an advanced Windows user capable of finding and removing hidden files/drivers/processes.  Certainly only run GameGuard on a Vista/XP system that is dedicated to gaming as such hidden applications can basically do anything they want on said system.  Again, not saying they are doing illicit things just that the methodology is illicit.  If you have Windows 7, or will be getting it when it comes out, then you can probably run GameGuard and feel less vulnerable but I would still want to at least be capable of checking for the aforementioned hidden behaviors and possibly still run only on a dedicated gaming machine.

I will not be playing Aion due to this (I was on the fence about it before, but GG pushes me to the WNP side firmly).  I have experienced this pos program before and it did nothing good for me forcing to spend the better part of 2 evening rebuilding my computer to get it off of it.

I will never run another game (even if all of them use it) that uses that program again.

Just to be fair here, I am not saying this is a malicious program - it is just a question of the method it uses to accomplish its assigned task being inappropriate at best and illicit, even harmful, at worst.  understand that illicit and harmful doesn't have to mean the program is farming data and CC numbers and shipping them to Kenya, it can simply mean a program is operating in a way that causes issues or interferes with the normal operation of the operating system or other programs.  If you are on the fence, or if you are of the thinking that this is a reason to avoid a game that uses it there is an alternative to just skipping the game (though that is the only way programs like GG will be forced to legitimate methods).  You can setup a dual boot and use that second boot of your operating system to run the game - I would recommend that you remove the drive letters form the main install on the dual booted operating system just to make access to that file system harder, and there are ways to hide it completely if you so choose.

The best way to do this is to not install your other operating system to the same disk rather to install it to a second disk, internal or external and to do it while the main disk is disconnected so that the entirety of the operating system, boot files and all, are on this alternate disk.  Otherwise, if you are just partitioning and installing to a second partition then the main operating system will be a system disk to the alternate operating system requiring it to be available and visible to the alternate operating system.  This is particularly easy if you have remotely modern hardware as all motherboards these days have a simple list in the BIOS that lets you define the main boot disk and they will also let you change that by hitting a key during post and selecting a disk to boot to (typically esc or f12).  Programs like EasyBCD also make this very manageable allowing you a graphical interface for BCD (vista and win 7 boot manager) that will allow you to easily create boot menus but keep in mind if you use something like EasyBCD or VistaBootPro your main operating system will remain a system disk to the alternate system as you would be using the boot files of that main system to load the alternate, even if they are on different physical disks.  That is why I think it is best to maintain the separate installs on separate disks and for this type of purpose (a dedicated gaming machine or other system with which you will use some DRM infected software) use the bios level boot disk selection to keep things very segmented.

I'm not the biggest fan of GG, but if the game simply kicks much ass, I'll endure.

Aion, for me, kicks much ass.

If I could have Aion without GG, I'd take it. But I won't give up an amazing game due to it.

Unfortunately, I know that goes nowhere towards correcting the issue... but I love great games :)

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Just to be fair here, I am not saying this is a malicious program - it is just a question of the method it uses to accomplish its assigned task being inappropriate at best and illicit, even harmful, at worst.  understand that illicit and harmful doesn't have to mean the program is farming data and CC numbers and shipping them to Kenya, it can simply mean a program is operating in a way that causes issues or interferes with the normal operation of the operating system or other programs.  If you are on the fence, or if you are of the thinking that this is a reason to avoid a game that uses it there is an alternative to just skipping the game (though that is the only way programs like GG will be forced to legitimate methods).  You can setup a dual boot and use that second boot of your operating system to run the game - I would recommend that you remove the drive letters form the main install on the dual booted operating system just to make access to that file system harder, and there are ways to hide it completely if you so choose.

 

The best way to do this is to not install your other operating system to the same disk rather to install it to a second disk, internal or external and to do it while the main disk is disconnected so that the entirety of the operating system, boot files and all, are on this alternate disk.  Otherwise, if you are just partitioning and installing to a second partition then the main operating system will be a system disk to the alternate operating system requiring it to be available and visible to the alternate operating system.  This is particularly easy if you have remotely modern hardware as all motherboards these days have a simple list in the BIOS that lets you define the main boot disk and they will also let you change that by hitting a key during post and selecting a disk to boot to (typically esc or f12).  Programs like EasyBCD also make this very manageable allowing you a graphical interface for BCD (vista and win 7 boot manager) that will allow you to easily create boot menus but keep in mind if you use something like EasyBCD or VistaBootPro your main operating system will remain a system disk to the alternate system as you would be using the boot files of that main system to load the alternate, even if they are on different physical disks.  That is why I think it is best to maintain the separate installs on separate disks and for this type of purpose (a dedicated gaming machine or other system with which you will use some DRM infected software) use the bios level boot disk selection to keep things very segmented.

Yah, I don't think their intent is malicious either.  It would be better if they provided a way to uninstall the program (in its entirety) as well as allowing it to be appropriately shut down when you aren't playing a GG game.  But neither of those features are available, thus I won't use it.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Just to be fair here, I am not saying this is a malicious program - it is just a question of the method it uses to accomplish its assigned task being inappropriate at best and illicit, even harmful, at worst.  understand that illicit and harmful doesn't have to mean the program is farming data and CC numbers and shipping them to Kenya, it can simply mean a program is operating in a way that causes issues or interferes with the normal operation of the operating system or other programs.  If you are on the fence, or if you are of the thinking that this is a reason to avoid a game that uses it there is an alternative to just skipping the game (though that is the only way programs like GG will be forced to legitimate methods).  You can setup a dual boot and use that second boot of your operating system to run the game - I would recommend that you remove the drive letters form the main install on the dual booted operating system just to make access to that file system harder, and there are ways to hide it completely if you so choose.

 

The best way to do this is to not install your other operating system to the same disk rather to install it to a second disk, internal or external and to do it while the main disk is disconnected so that the entirety of the operating system, boot files and all, are on this alternate disk.  Otherwise, if you are just partitioning and installing to a second partition then the main operating system will be a system disk to the alternate operating system requiring it to be available and visible to the alternate operating system.  This is particularly easy if you have remotely modern hardware as all motherboards these days have a simple list in the BIOS that lets you define the main boot disk and they will also let you change that by hitting a key during post and selecting a disk to boot to (typically esc or f12).  Programs like EasyBCD also make this very manageable allowing you a graphical interface for BCD (vista and win 7 boot manager) that will allow you to easily create boot menus but keep in mind if you use something like EasyBCD or VistaBootPro your main operating system will remain a system disk to the alternate system as you would be using the boot files of that main system to load the alternate, even if they are on different physical disks.  That is why I think it is best to maintain the separate installs on separate disks and for this type of purpose (a dedicated gaming machine or other system with which you will use some DRM infected software) use the bios level boot disk selection to keep things very segmented.

Thats actually a great idea. I really dislike the way windows handles multi OS booting. Never even considered something so simple. Thanks for posting!

Originally posted by BigMango

 

Gameguard is not the problem.

People are complaining about gameguard when the real problem is their AV / internet security tool.

On my system Aion didn't work with Kaspersky (KIS 2010); I removed and replaced it with NOD32 and now everything is working fine.

 

Bullshit.

So I suppose my antivirus program conflicting with gameguard is what causes my dvd drive to vanish from my system, requiring a reboot to have it usable again?  When I read my system logs, and see that it's a gameguard process that's causing IE 8 to crash when I alt-tab out of Aion, because I'm bored and want to read a forum...that's because I need to switch antivirus.  I guess I must be hallucinating all the Gameguard-related entries, right?

You don't know what you're talking about, so speaking as if you are some authority on the subject.  I'm not going to sit here and say I have all the answers, but even an idiot can see, without Aion/Gameguard, my system runs like a champ.  Install Aion/Gameguard, shit hits the fan.  No game is worth the amount of bullshit swirling around GG. 

Originally posted by Golarum

Originally posted by BigMango

Originally posted by Golarum

WOW, do you even read before posting? I will try to say it more slowly...

KIS 2010   i s   n o t   t h e   p r o b l e m,   I   n e v e r    h a d   a n y    i s s u e s   r e l a t i n g    t o   k a s p e r s k y.   R e a d   m y   

f i r s t   p o s t   i n   t h i s   t o p i c   a n d   y o u   w i l l   s e e    t h a t   m y    p r o b l e m   h a s   n o t h i n g   t o   d o   w i t h    m y

a n t i - v i r u s.

Stop knitpicking my posts, read the whole post and you'll see that I'm telling you that GG is a piece of sh*t of a program and it is causing ALL SORTS of bugs, not only A V bugs.

D o   y o u   u n d e r s t a n d   m e   n o w   ?

 

As I said:

-> KIS 2010 is the problem. This is confirmed on the kaspersky forums.

Because you "n e v e r h a d a n y i s s u e s r e l a t i n g t o k a s p e r s k y" is completely irrelevant (gameguard has to use low level system access to block hacks that use low level access - and once you are in low level problems and conflicts can happen in some circumstances - even more so if an internet security tool has a bug with its rules management, like the *newly released* (aka "not properly tested")  KIS 2010 (KIS 2009 is fine).

 

That said, if you uninstall KIS 2010 and it still doesn't work, then you probably also have another conflict on your system (or perhaps even a bug with gameguard - everything is possible, remember, we are testing beta software). But until you do, it is really pointless to talk more about this.

 

Anyway, in my case I had 2 choices:

1. Act and replace KIS 2010 with NOD32 (KIS 2009 would also have been an option). -> and PLAY Aion.     (this took less than 5 minutes)

OR

2. whine and complain on forums refusing to remove KIS 2010 -> and NOT play Aion.

 

Guess which option I took?

 

 

 

 

So if I understand right, you are saying that the years of GG bugging games and people's computers is all KIS 2010's fault? Even though it didn't even exist back then?

You say if I downgrade to 2009 and continue having problems, it's still not GG, but something else in my computer?

Or maybe all the people who are having problems with GG and who are not using Kaspersky, is that also Kasperskys fault? Kaspersky 2010 is bugging people's computers even though they never had it on their computer?

Everyone who is having problems have ONE thing in common, and it is GG. People have Kaspersky, NOD32, Bitdefender, Norton, McAfee, AVG and other AVs, and they are having problems, but that is not GGs fault, it's kaspersky that is causing everyone to have problems right?

If you actually read people's posts with problems relating to GG, you will notice that not even 5% of the people having problems have Kaspersky.

But like you said, it is pointless to continue to talk about it, because even if I bring all the arguments of the world, you will answer with Kaspersky is the problem. I wouldn't be surprised if I saw you say that WWII happened because of Kaspersky lol.

My choice has been made a while ago like a lot of people, as long as they use GG, I will not play Aion. If it's a F2P game, it wouldn't matter as much, but an ''elite'' game like Aion should have it's own core anti-hack system. When I pay for a Ferrari, I do not want it to be using Oldsmobile parts.

NcSoft is the biggest mmorpg company in the world, they should not be using crap in their games. This is not their first game, they know what they are doing, or at least I hope they do...

Peace

 

Have u even tryed Kaspersky 2009? if you havent u should and stop moaning , i had a few probs with gameguard but i sorted it , and in the end it was my fault , AVG Free works fine no problems , if u want to play Aion do what is needed to be done to get it working stop crying and moaning , if u dont want to , stop posting its as simple as that.

I really do not understand all the hype this game is getting. It does not bring anything new to the table, and there is enough bad about it to really upset anyone who roleplays or cares about their computer. What is the deal with this game?

for people not wanting GG there are 2 simple ways to go about it.

1) not install anything with GG

2) or break down and search the net for one of the Many websites that deal with disabling it, and setting it up to not install period when you install Aion or any game. (granted this is a form of illegal tampering so if you do it.. your choice)

thats the best way to avoid GG. as i dislike/trust GG as it doesnt work period to block hackers and it tried to disable my firewall more then once while i was trying to run a crappy little MMO, pretty sad when an anti-cheat program is flagged by an AV and firewall security system as a hack attempt... (and no, i know for a fact it was GG. my firewall is programmed to tell me exactly where the alert came from. it pointed exactly at the GG folder and the .exe file lol)

no anti-cheat program should be flagged as rootkit or malware... its makes it sound hypocritcal and full of BS when it is