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Originally posted by alecbr
 I don't think these are details what the we are discussing here and in other forums.
 
Take for example first person shooter games (FPS). There is a very clear definition what they are: they are first person games and shooter games. Now let's imagine that these games would be extremely popular and they would make huge revenues. A lot of game companies would for marketing purposes put the label FPS on their games even if it weren't exactly FPS games by definition. So you would get third person shooters or fighting games sold as FPS. The genre FPS would be diluted and there would be heavy discussions on the forums what FPS genre is and what it is not. And you would say then that because genres are a loose set of criteria for a category of composition that we shouldn't discuss such unimportant details as if third person shooters are FPS or if sword fighting is FPS.
 
The same happened with MMORPG genre.

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Yes, but FPS is much more of a descriptive term than RPG. FPS: First Person Shooter, so it has to be in first person and it has to have ranged weapons. RPG: Role Playing Game isn't nearly as defined and actually can be filled by just about any game where a icon represents you, though it's widely accepted that to be a true RPG your character must progress in some way through play.

Originally posted by xaldraxius

 

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Originally posted by alecbr
 I don't think these are details what the we are discussing here and in other forums.
 
Take for example first person shooter games (FPS). There is a very clear definition what they are: they are first person games and shooter games. Now let's imagine that these games would be extremely popular and they would make huge revenues. A lot of game companies would for marketing purposes put the label FPS on their games even if it weren't exactly FPS games by definition. So you would get third person shooters or fighting games sold as FPS. The genre FPS would be diluted and there would be heavy discussions on the forums what FPS genre is and what it is not. And you would say then that because genres are a loose set of criteria for a category of composition that we shouldn't discuss such unimportant details as if third person shooters are FPS or if sword fighting is FPS.
 
The same happened with MMORPG genre.

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Yes, but FPS is very more of a descriptive term than RPG. FPS: First Person Shooter, so it has to be in first person and it has to have ranged weapons. RPG: Role Playing Game isn't nearly as defined and actually can be filled by just about any game where a icon represents you, though it's widely accepted that to be a true RPG your character must progress in some way through play.

Isn't that just because there have been  little or no mmorpg's with no levels? A character in a mmorpg doesn't need to be able to progress, it's just that it's more fun I think....

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Originally posted by ferdie4

Isn't that just because there have been  little or no mmorpg's with no levels? A character in a mmorpg doesn't need to be able to progress, it's just that it's more fun I think....

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Well, level progression is only one kind of progression. There's skill progression too, where as your character doesn't gain anything specific after they get a certain amount of xp, rather they can use their xp as they see fit to boost stats and skills at any time.

This is the old Level/Skill debate, which changed into the Class/Skill debate after a while as Class based games are generally level based as well and it was easier to explain. People began to mistake Level vs Skill as being about whether character advancement or personal skill made the difference in PvP, but in truth in order for personal skill to be the deciding factor character advancement has to be so minute as to be irrelevant and then you've taken the RPG out of the game pretty much entirely.

But I digress.

One could say that getting better equipment is a form of progression, but that opens the door to saying that most FPSs are in fact RPGs, so, as not to muddy the already convoluted understanding of the term RPG, it's an unwritten law that the character itself must change in some positive manner due to experience.

That's why it's so hard to nail down terms like MMO and RPG, and why I say it's 'widely accepted' that your character must progress to be an RPG. If you got 100 PnP gamers together and asked them what makes a game an RPG at least 70% of them are going to agree.

No there are NOT an MMORPG.

Not role playing, because you play yourself.

Not Massive because its 8 people to a table.

It's a Multiplayer Online Game.

Originally posted by Czzarre

The answer is no

They are not MMORPGs, since its not a roleplaying game

Also they are not massive (>500 players in one enviornment at one time).

 

Roleplaying is a subjective term really. Playing poker, when you're not a pro, can be to some, considered a type of roleplaying. It's silly, yes, but nonetheless roleplaying in a sense.

Originally posted by Czzarre

The answer is no

They are not MMORPGs, since its not a roleplaying game

Also they are not massive (>500 players in one enviornment at one time).

 

The number is debateable, and 500 seems arbitrary. I would say 128 (2x64) since it is more than the typical shooter game is capable of, which makes an MMORPG "massive".

But in any case I agree, not enough players in the same environment at one time. It's a lobby game, not massive.

 Nope, they are not MMO's.  You suck.

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Originally posted by CDCosta
No there are NOT an MMORPG.
Not role playing, because you play yourself.
Not Massive because its 8 people to a table.
It's a Multiplayer Online Game.

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I usually play with 10 people at a table with as many as 100+ tables in a single tournament. Given the sharding in CO and instancing in AoC it's not much of a stretch to include these poker tournys as being 'Massive'.

A wise reed bends in the wind. You can't nail down terminology that's as vague as MMO or RPG, trying to just makes you look ignorant.

 Are online poker games MMORPGS?

No. MMOG yes MMORPG no.

Originally posted by xaldraxius

 

 

People began to mistake Level vs Skill as being about whether character advancement or personal skill made the difference in PvP, but in truth in order for personal skill to be the deciding factor character advancement has to be so minute as to be irrelevant and then you've taken the RPG out of the game pretty much entirely.

One could say that getting better equipment is a form of progression, but that opens the door to saying that most FPSs are in fact RPGs, so, as not to muddy the already convoluted understanding of the term RPG, it's an unwritten law that the character itself must change in some positive manner due to experience.

That's why it's so hard to nail down terms like MMO and RPG, and why I say it's 'widely accepted' that your character must progress to be an RPG. If you got 100 PnP gamers together and asked them what makes a game an RPG at least 70% of them are going to agree.

Well "victory" is a composite of a lot of factors (like skill, advancement, and gear.)  And while it's hard to figure out exactly what percentage each contributes to victory (33% skill, 33% advancement, 33% gear?) there is definitely granularity to it.  A game with the 33/33/33 split which decides to make gear less important (for example, having it contribute less to DPS) might end up with a 40/40/20 split.

Gear is progression.  It's just that for FPS games "FPS" defines them so much better so that's what they call themselves (although some opt for even less specific definitions like "Shooter" or "Action".)  Heck, I want to say "but FPSes don't have gear progression choices" to differentiate them, but even that isn't accurate because a lot of FPSes force you to choose between weapons.

Anything that features more than two people playing a game together online seems to have a chance of making it to MMORPG.com’s game list. So hang in there and this may come true :)

Originally posted by Scot

Anything that features more than two people playing a game together online seems to have a chance of making it to MMORPG.com’s game list. So hang in there and this may come true :)

Very true Scot I was going to ask if Madden is a MMORPG now? It has a lobby can be played online and you can roleplay an NFL QB or any other NFL player :)

Originally posted by alecbr

 I know it sounds absurd. For me online poker games could never, not even in my wildest dreams, be MMORPGs. But I tried to apply the most current definitions of a MMORPG game to online poker games and to my surprise I found out that by these definitions online poker games are MMORPGs.

 

Applying the definitions of a MMORPG game to online poker games:

 

1. They are massive (no doubt about that).

No they are not massive, the amount of people into OPG is massive indeed, but you can not play with a massive amount of people similtaniosly on one server at the same time. There for they aren't massive.

 

2. They are multiplayer (no doubt about that).

 True. But then again should we call all multiplayer games MMO's?

3. They are online (no doubt about that).

True but like 2 should we call every online game a MMO, obviously we do not.

 

4. If killing mobs with other players in an instance is role playing, then playing poker with other players in a room is also role playing.

Killing mobs is just a very minor feature in roleplaying, so sure you could consider playing poker could involve some roleplaying, again very minor, but then again we can role-play what ever we want with what ever we want.

5. They have persistent worlds. At first this sounds crazy, but let me explain it. Online poker games have a lobby (main world) and then they have rooms in which players are playing poker (instanced dungeons). The lobby and the rooms are persistent because every time you log into the game the lobby and the rooms are completely the same (of course inside the same version of the game). It's the same in WOW - every time you log into WOW the world and the instances are completely the same (of course inside the same version of the game).

 Rooms or Lobby's are not worlds for me to explore/discover.

6. Your character in the game is persistent. Whatever you win or loose in a poker game its permanent for your character. Next time you log into the game you will have the same amount of money as when you logged out of the game.

Doesn't that logic applies to just about every game?

 

7. You are developing your character over time. This is even a sandbox element. You don't have levels but you are developing the poker skills of your character by using the skills. After one year of playing your character is better in playing poker then he was at the beginning.

You're only developing your own personal skills, nothing changes with the avatar you using by playing poker, in a MMORPG it's your character (the one you are controling) that due to lvl/skills/gear/loot/crafting etc. aquires his skills. With poker only you personaly aquire skills, example let someone ( a newb) enter YOUR MMORPG and play with your maxed out character, fair change he or she will survive many things not as good as YOU who has build that character but he/she will manage many things, now let someone (a newb) enter a high rollers room with very experianced players in it but let that person use your online character, that person will fail ( unless the newb is actualy very good at poker of course) cause the character people see in the poker room, might look like YOU but doesn't play like YOU because it's someone else, with MMORPG maxed out characters are often clones of eachother, wearing the same gear, using mostly the same or similar tactics.

 

8. Another sandbox element. In online poker games you have full PvP and you can loot other characters.

Never knew full-loot was considered a sandbox element as to me full-loot can fit into any type of game style, may it be sandbox or themepark/linear.

9. You have also PvE in online poker games, because some type of games can be played with NPCs.

Then with your point 9 we should consider allot more different game genre's to be MMO's? sorry doesn't work for me.

There has to be a mistake somewhere. My reasoning could be wrong or there could be something wrong with the definitions of a MMORPG game.

MMORPG a game genre that when entering one I want to be immersed with the "game" world, I want to explore things/area's/settings I am not able to explore in rl, I want to craft/harvest things I never ever will be able to make in rl, I want to discover creature's/sightings I could never see in rl, I want to have a home in the far reaches of space/another dimension/a fantasy setting which is so different from rl but still feels somewhat familiar.

These elements I do not get from poker games or online poker games.

Originally posted by Reklaw

MMORPG a game genre that when entering one I want to be immersed with the "game" world, I want to explore things/area's/settings I am not able to explore in rl, I want to craft/harvest things I never ever will be able to make in rl, I want to discover creature's/sightings I could never see in rl, I want to have a home in the far reaches of space/another dimension/a fantasy setting which is so different from rl but still feels somewhat familiar.

These elements I do not get from poker games or online poker games.

Eh? Whether you "want" it in your game is pretty inconsequential to a discussion of what MMORPGs are defined as.

As we've all covered, Poker isn't an RPG.  But if Poker was an RPG (and it could easily be,) online Poker could be called an MMORPG.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a Poker RPG out there somewhere.  Stuff like Puzzle Pirates and Puzzle Quest has been around for years showing people that attaching RPG elements to unusual types of games is fun.

To me an MMORPG has to include some key elements such as killing things (most important) , crafting, have an online economy of trading goods and services (adding cash to your account doesn't count), gear that improves your stats and of course, progression of character skills independent of the person behind it.

No one will ever add those elements to poker, so it stays as an MMOG.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Reklaw

MMORPG a game genre that when entering one I want to be immersed with the "game" world, I want to explore things/area's/settings I am not able to explore in rl, I want to craft/harvest things I never ever will be able to make in rl, I want to discover creature's/sightings I could never see in rl, I want to have a home in the far reaches of space/another dimension/a fantasy setting which is so different from rl but still feels somewhat familiar.

These elements I do not get from poker games or online poker games.

 

Eh? Whether you "want" it in your game is pretty inconsequential to a discussion of what MMORPGs are defined as.

Kinda the reason why I just explained what it is I want, sorry for sharing my opinion on forums like this.

As we've all covered, Poker isn't an RPG.  But if Poker was an RPG (and it could easily be,) online Poker could be called an MMORPG.

Yeah kinda logical aint it?

To be honest, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a Poker RPG out there somewhere.  Stuff like Puzzle Pirates and Puzzle Quest has been around for years showing people that attaching RPG elements to unusual types of games is fun.

Looking for this? >  http://pokerrpg.com/

But as you might have noticed the topic was not about some hybrid type of poker game but pure about "online poker Games" and I gave my opinion on that topic.

Originally posted by Reklaw

But as you might have noticed the topic was not about some hybrid type of poker game but pure about "online poker Games" and I gave my opinion on that topic.

And as you apparently didn't notice, the thread moved beyond that into whether a Poker RPG was an MMORPG. :P

I don't get you guys, RPG literally means roleplayinggame i.e. playing a role in a game. What ever that role is, is up to you and what the game has to offer. Online poker games are by no means a RPG game as you can't even control your character. If there was a lobby where you can move your character and interact with other people then you should be able to call it a RPG.

P.S.

Axehilt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 559

How can this be?

Not real sure how rank works here.  Sort of prefer Allakhazam's rated-post system.  Encourages people to make quality posts (in a way that's very MMO-like even. (: )

Poker could be an mmorpg if all of the rooms/tables were in an open world environment that allowed other players to walk up to the table (without seeing all the hands of course) and interact.  Basically like a casino, but isn't there an mmo like this in the works? Otherwise it is basically like a big chat room of viewers, each game somewhat of a sandbox in relation to the poker game's community as a whole.