Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

This sounds like something coming from someone who never experienced them and knows gaming time in only WoW. EQ and UO were MASSIVELY popular then. They were the first of their kind. Sorry to burst your bubble, but do you think ANY MMO you play now ISN'T a grindfest? Even your beloved WoW is.

 

So, thank you for proving that the WoW players are ravenous and ignorant as to the whole history of MMO's. If you spent more time actually dwelving into near as many games as I have (Been playing since before you were born I'm betting), you'd see the good and bad points in all of them, and what combination makes great games, instead of wearing blinders and focusing on one you like.

 At least all of this is helping me study the player market before I graduate and enter the field. Hopefully someday though, I can get together...even a small team, and prove that a big company with a big game that follows the trends isn't the only way to make success. Hell, look at EVE Online. Still going strong after 6 years, and it hasn't conformed to be like Freelancer, etc.

 

 

I bought UO the first day it came out.  I picked AC over EQ and fought the Web board wars.  Live AC or Die EQ.  I then played WoW and EQ2 the first day they came out.  EQ2 failed back then.  Then I played WAR, Anarchy Online, AoC, EQ2 again.  Frankly the grind in UO and AC was a grind of pointlessly killing monsters in an area till you dinged and moved to a new area.  In WoW the "grind" is doing quests and in my opinion multitudes of happiness better in speed, different activites done, and moving around.  Does it effect community...yeah...but in my opinion if you wanted a chat room to do a boring grind so you could just talk go play Second Life.  I want to join a group to accomplish a purpose not just grind mobs and talk.

So if you were playing games before I was born then you must mean games from the pre-pc era...did they have punch card computer games in the 60's?

I am not a crazed fan of WoW, but of the new assertion that grinding mobs is a failed and uninspired game model.  WoW has proven this.  A quest driven game will beat a grind mob driven game any time.

Well, my apologies if  I offended you. I did come off a bit, er, standoffish. Sadly, I am getting use to that from ravenous WoW fans if you dare bring up a negative fact of the game, or promote ideas outside of it.

As for the last part of your post...I agree...to a point. Some of the most fun of my EQ days was finding a nice quiet area to grind mobs. Simply for the excitement of what could drop off of them next. Mobs didn't always drop the same 3 pieces of gear. I guess it depends on the players preference...but most MMO's now make everything a rush to get to the top. Again, that is what console games are for. MMORPG...the last part is most important...Role Playing Game...meaning "longer story driven game".

WoW was NOT quest driven. Well, it WAS, but NOT in a good way. Most of the quests were "Collect/Kill X amount of X" quests. Lazily done quests to fill up space, not drive an ongoing story. Hopefully, SWTOR will hold true and have it's entire NPC collection voiced over and have truly epic Star Wars story driven quests and break the trend of Korean style collection quests.

Originally posted by todeswulf

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Eben

Originally posted by templarga

 Maybe, just maybe if those companies and those developers and those investors would show a little innovation and create something unique then it might succeed.

 

Funny, Blizzard did neither, and they seem to be succeeding rather well.  What gives?

 

Mass advertisement. Especially using celebrities who probably never even heard of WoW or knew of online gaming before Blizzard waved cash in their face to say they play it. Which in turn made the kids go "Ew ew! Ozzy plays WoW, it must be cool!"

Ummm Kids aren't exactly huge fans of Ozzy's...Kids maybe in 1979 were. Out of all the people who did the Commericals the only ones who actually play were Mini Me and Ozzy, Mini me has alwasy been a huge gamer I have seen him at Dragon Con, Gen Con and Quake Con and not as a celeb he was there checking out the games and there has been a lot written about Ozzys WoW obsession...he approached Blizzard to do the Commerical after he saw the Shatner one.
 

 

There you have it, the secret to success. Make a game so dumbed down and simplistic that even Ozzy can play it.

Last time i checked no current game on the market is hard to play so i fail to see your point.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys.

IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.

First off, I played WoW (unfortunately) from release until just before release of LoTK, so this isn't completely one sided. Yes, their were some good things that came from WoW, although few and far between. It was so easy that it wasn't fun. Unless you enjoyed ganking/griefing low levels all day, which was never in short supply in WoW.

Now, almost every company out there tries to mirror WoW to some degree...and fails miserably. They need to STOP trying to be WoW and be original...or at least more creative and look beyond that game. Every company has lost sight of what MMO's were about in the beginning (EQ/UO era). Then, they were about quests with meaning and real story behind them (Not a billion meaningless "Kill/Collect X amount of X" quests), they were about adventure and grouping with meaning...that led to long term friendships and a great community, etc. People were helpful, friendly, and even generous...helping new players with directions (There was no MMO GPS), obtaining gear, etc. Playing those games didn't feel like a console game, they  took you to another world where you could be another person in another time. No, I am not a RP'er, but when I started playing EQ in 99', that is what it made me feel like personally, because I had been a console player to that point. It was a unique and exciting change that I didn't look back from for many years. It was like playing a living,breathing, fantasy book.

 

Now?....I'm mainly back to playing console games. Why? Because almost everything I mentioned above is gone. When WoW made MMO's mainstream and brought massive attention to them, it brought with it a new generation of MMO players that to me shouldn't be here. They are mainly console FPS players (IMO) that are simply looking to whore stats and smack talk/grief/gank everyone and anyone. The communities are greedy and rude for the most part, only thinking of themselves unless their is something in it for them. It's near impossible to find groups, people ninja gear everyone worked hard for, players will leave in the middle of a dungeon if things aren't going well quickly enough for them and leave you stranded, or leave once they get what they want. Don't ask a question...because then you will be called names and mocked. How does that make a new player feel? Does it make them want to stay? I say no.

Quests are bland and meaningless...they give you no real feeling of accomplishment. They consist of mainly the types I mentioned above. And even worse, usually give meaningless rewards. Mobs are too predictable and in most cases easy. WAY TOO GEAR BASED! This was WoW's main flaw IMO. If you didn't have purples, you didn't stand a chance...unless faced with other blue/green wearers, which was rare. Everything is about stats and reputation now...FPS elements. And this doesn't just go for WoW. I can name countless MMO's that now have most of these things.

 

I'm blathering now. Anyway, to sum things up, I feel WoW changed MMO's for the worse personally. Every company does the same cookie cutter technique and stagnates the MMO market with the same boring crap trying to BE WoW. Star Wars: The Old Republic will be my last hope more than likely. IDK, keeping my eye on Everquest Next as well to see where that goes, although I don't hold much hope in Sony anymore either.

 

P.S. Personally I think PvP should of been left in console games. It is another reason communities lack any real bond and sense of actual community. Been playing EVE on and off for a bit over 2 years. It is the ONLY MMO that I have seen exciting PvP, and done right. Long character progression to become decent, hence, small community...but a decent one.

You, my friend, are what I like to call a "True Mmo Player". You, like myself, are sick of the "collect X kill Y" quests. You miss the old quests that had meaning. I once played a game and did a quest that wasnt "Kill X amount of X"...It was "theres a dragon named XXXXX whos slaughtered nearly all of my men. Even my bravest warriors fear his might. I need a hero...I need you to kill the dragon. Kill the dragon and I will reward you. Do not fail...the fate of the kingdom rests in your hands..." - that is a quest with meaning...I am a hero now...I have to kill this dragon or he will continue to ravage the kingdom. I know my duty and my purpose unlike the "kill X" quests. Why am I killing X? what did X ever do to you?

I too miss these games. I miss MMO's as they were. WoW has changed the market of MMO's...and to the guy that was complaining about this post saying that he was blaming it on blizzard...I'm sorry, but it is blizzards fault. If they hadn't brought all the console FPS players then other companies wouldn't have to meet thier expectations. If it was just the hardcore MMO players then companies could make true MMO's...and not have to worry about wether or not they have enough quests to keep the children with attention spans of 5 seconds interested.

This is the main reason that I'm in college studying game design, because I want to start a company to make a true MMO. Not these fluffy meaningless patched up clients that we play. I want to make an MMO that doesn't try to be like WoW and is uniqe. Some thing to bring back the good old days.

Hopefully I wont fail at it.

I love how there is so much shit talking about ones maturity or age in MMOs, especially when people differ from your own opinions.

 Okay, I guess I'll bite the troll's foot. Here's my WoW vs Everything post:

World of Warcraft - Bright graphics that look like a lollipop paradise, although they do fit the game's setting and lore. The music is repeatitive to say the least. Half the continents are only available by purchasing two expansion packs, at 20 dollars a piece, as are 3 of the classes. In other words, it's 60 bucks just to experience the whole game. The game is full of a horrible community, and the assets for guilds, friends, and handling the ignore list (which is going to grow REALLY big... in your first day) are very barebone. The Open World PvP is only available to very well geared 80's (or whatever they jack the level cap to by the time I post this). Battlegrounds are dominated by Twinks, meaning normal players aren't able to go in and have much fun. The game is entirely gear and really just a grind to the max level to inch out any little bit of fun. All in all, 3/10 . It has a decent sized world, quite a nice one if you pay 60 bucks to get the whole game, but the graphics are very blocky and outdated (and yes, they can update their engine, EVE did it, Planet Calypso went from a crappy engine to CryENGINE 2, don't tell me WoW can't) and the community delivers the killing blow. Again I say, 3/10.

Lord of the Rings Online - VERY good graphics, they've taken the time to incorporate DX10 as well. The world is a decent size, enough to keep someone exploring to their max level but you won't be going back to find more at all, as the storyline leads you to most iconic spots and you'll probably end up finding the rest if you explore at all. The PvE really is some of the best, with the book quests. It actually KEEPS everyone pretty on spot with their level, although you can go off and do as you wish. It's always easy to find a group. The PvP is rather medicore, although PvMP is really quite fun, and the teamwork required is very awesome. It's also nice to see such a fleshed out monster side for the mode. All in all, I give this a 8/10 because the PvE content will keep you very entertained to the cap, and the dungeons are fairly well made. There's plenty to keep you entertained, not to mention the solid, friendly userbase and price point of 10 bucks. Again, 8/10

DDO - Fun game, although the dungeons get tiring after a while. No exploration is a downfall. Graphics are fairly medicore, but I love the combat. All in all, 6/10 for combat and the traps and puzzles in dungeons, it keeps you entertained until you hit the level cap of 20, being free helps.

CO - I have not played, I will not judge.

City of Heroes - The best MMORPG character creation to date (excluding CO, which probably steals the title) and a fleshed out universe. The quests are fairly boring, and there's not much for the instance interiors, about 7 - 12 different themes. It doesn't really make you feel like a superhero, although the idea is neat. Flying is fun... :P The city and various areas are fun to explore and offer neat little things. The graphics are really quite nice for an MMO it's age, the physics system is a REALLY nice touch. 7/10

Darkfall - I am buying it soon, but otherwise, have not played, will not judge.

Warhammer Online - I love the game, the PvP is pretty intense, especially the higher level keep taking. The graphics are superb, although the PvE is pretty bad. There's good ideas like the Public Quest system that just isn't used enough. It supports a good bit of land for exploration. It also offers 6 races (it counts it's Goblins and Orcs as "greenskins" so, technically 7) and 18 classes. The character customization lacks depth, on par with a game like WoW's. All in all, it offers great entertainment if you like the PvP, and the art style and graphics are pretty awesome, 8/10.

EVE Online - The graphics are great, and nearly everything is player run. Because of this, I have never seen something more immersive. For some people, it's like a true second life, I am one of those people. I am constantly staying on top of it with things like EVEMON and EFT. Very dynamic game with in-depth.. .well... everything. Tons of skills, great character creation (even if it is just a picture). 9/10 (not 10 for lack of better PvE stuff)

I choose not to list F2P games, as there's quite a number of them and each has it's merits.

Thank You,

 - Eric

Originally posted by Zorndorf

The OP sums up what most people feel about this industry.

But I would widen the gap between WOW and the rest even more. WOW 9/10 and the rest around 5-ish.

Everything else simply lacks the resources of a Blizzard game.

Resources as in manpower.

Just one example? Look at the itemisation in the games.

Just one tiny (but important) part of any fantasy mmorpg with gear.

The OP is not telling something new. He just confirmed what we already all knew.

 

 

First off I love WoW but In trying out other games on the market I've come to respect games that try to be different.

As a WoW player I want other companies to release a different experience. I would totally agree with what you're saying if you didn't rate every other game a 5.  Games like Eve and even Ryzom are different enough that they give a WoW player like myself something else to play while WoW gets a bit tedious (farming gear that wont drop or when queues are slow).

So no not every game on the market is sub par besides WoW.

Is WoW the best? yeah. Is it the only quality MMO? Eve is the other one if I only had to pick two.

@nickelpat
 

http://www.planetcalypso.com/media/screenshots/index.xml?startFolder=/media/screenshots/screens/Calypso Preview/
 

Oh my god!!! O.O 

so...beautiful...i just registered for this game and am going to play it...just because it looks so good!

The only reason wow is the highest on your list is because you never played Eve.

Lets see here,

Eve

Great Economy

Great Missions

Tactical PvP

And thats just the surface

Wow...

decent pvp

good raiding, it has its fun moments

but really theres not much more to it.

so you cant say WoW vs all mmo's when u havnt even played eve...

my 2 isk

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Last time i checked no current game on the market is hard to play so i fail to see your point.

I agree.  The only time I typically died in WoW was in an instance or a bg, and that was usually all the way to level cap.  Never in pve questing.  Same in WAR, and I don't think I've yet died in EVE.  Actually, now that I think about it, I rarely died in any mmo.  Usually I've gotten bored and quit long before ever dying.  Well, other than Aion, when my flight timer ran out and I fell.  Most MMOs are brain-dead easy. 

Originally posted by MMO_REVIEWER

@nickelpat
 

http://www.planetcalypso.com/media/screenshots/index.xml?startFolder=/media/screenshots/screens/Calypso Preview/
 

Oh my god!!! O.O 

so...beautiful...i just registered for this game and am going to play it...just because it looks so good!

While it looks pretty..just keep in mind that game mechanics is what truly makes or breaks a game.

Originally posted by MMO_REVIEWER

@nickelpat
 

http://www.planetcalypso.com/media/screenshots/index.xml?startFolder=/media/screenshots/screens/Calypso Preview/
 

Oh my god!!! O.O 

so...beautiful...i just registered for this game and am going to play it...just because it looks so good!

Darned right, and that's all remodeled and textured and overall, redone from a very old, crappy looking engine.

That gameplay is fun, but you can't do much without sinking real money into the game, or A LOT of time. It's somewhat hard to explain, I would look over the site.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys.

IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.

I didn't even BOTHER to re-post the rest of your rant, because it's just so ridiculous. You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.

If you want to BLAME someone...blame all the gamers that LOVE WoW. Blame EVERYONE that ever played WoW....because all of those people are what made WoW successful. Apparently WoW had (and may still have) something that a LOT of people like. Just because SOME don't like it, does not take away from the millions that DO like it. And for this....you blame Blizzard for making a game that did all the things everyone apparently wanted and many STILL want?

LOL

The GREED of other game developers MIGHT be at fault.  The gamers that enjoyed the game in the past and present MIGHT be at fault. But WoW ITSELF is not to be faulted for anything, in my opinion.  All Blizzard did is give people what they APPARENTLY wanted. And that....is good business, whether you LIKE it, or approve of it, or not.

Logic.

Originally posted by IceShadeX2

The only reason wow is the highest on your list is because you never played Eve.

Lets see here,

Eve

Great Economy

Great Missions

Tactical PvP

And thats just the surface

Wow...

decent pvp

good raiding, it has its fun moments

but really theres not much more to it.

 

so you cant say WoW vs all mmo's when u havnt even played eve...

my 2 isk

I've played EVE.  The "problem" with EVE, is that it's not going to suit everyone's taste.  I played it long enough to make millions of isk and have finally gotten my HULK. But to be entirely honest.....I found it EVERY BIT as boring as any other MMO eventually. Now, that MIGHT be because I'm not a big PvP maniac.  I suppose if I was out in 0.0 space getting blown to bits by people with far better ships than me it would be more fun?  I don't think so, but I can see where some might.

In short....just because YOU think EVE is better than WoW, EQ2, or any other MMO you'd like to name, doesn't mean that people are going to agree with you, other than the EVE fan base. EVE is definitely UNIQUE among that list of games, I'll grant you that. It's not LIKE any other MMO, for sure. But that doesn't necessarily mean everyone will think it's BETTER.  Ya know?

I'm not sure why no one seems to get that not everyone loves the SAME games.....it seems like that's just common sense to me. We all have different personalities and time constraints and many other things that factor into our choice in games. Play what you LIKE....and leave the rest. Go MAKE the game you want to play. Go to school....learn to do it....and make it.  Put your money where your mouth is and..... quit relying on other game developers to risk THEIR money to build a game that YOU personally like.

(The last paragraph here is directed at the Blame Game bunch that were posting prior to you, btw.)

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Goatgod76

*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys.

IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.

You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.

The funniest thing is how he compared Ever Quest II to WoW. First of all i still play Ever Quest II, and its still amazing! Second Ever Quest II came out before WoW, so im just wondering how it failed to wow

Ever Quest II: November 8, 2004

World of Warcraft: November 23, 2004

He's Right. WOW changed MMOs and for the worse IMO. Did they mean to...no.
 

MMOs use to be more fun as he stated, they use to strive to add more stuff and make the game more challenging. UO / EQ pretty much started it and then the next step was FFXI / SWG. If you played them before WoW hit you can see how difficult both of those were compared to anything else out now. When kids tried those games they cried endlessly about being de-leveled, having to have a perfect group, decay and of course the Jedi issue.
 

Then WoW came and made it mainstream, as stated. It changed everything b/c of the crowd it brought. Since WoW, no games have been made that cause you put time and effort in your toon. It’s all "look I’m 60 already" in a week time frame. Instant gratification is WoWs tool. It works but even now.....WoW fans are looking placing and seeing "clones". That’s b/c the market changed to what they all flocked too. WoW fans are bored with the same crap but you reap what you sow. You want easy so everyone makes it.
 

If someone made a game like FFXI/SWG now and people tried it, they would flame the hell out of it. Simply b/c it’s to hard for them. They complain that they don’t have icons on maps to show them where a quest is. GOD forbid you have to read and explore the land to find something. They think every class should somehow be a solo class. Everyone even "healers" can solo. Everyone is a crafter. There is no challenge in that. Then we get stuck with 800 man raids not worth the time simply b/c you never get your loot you wanted. There are plenty of ways around that issue but nobody changes it. "That’s just a RPG with Networking" (SWTOR). Sounds just like any other MMO with their raids, but they bitch.
To end this without writing hundreds of examples.
 

Depending on what you are looking for in a game or if you’re a console kiddie. WoW can only compete against the new MMOs. Once you place it against all the older MMOs that were before it.....WoW fails. And IMO if you disagree, its b/c of 2 things: You have only played MMOs since WoW has been out or you’re just a console kid who doesn’t know any better.

Quick lets all get together and cry about how great we think our favorite games are and how bad the rest suck! I've got an idea, how about instead of telling me how fricken great WOW is, you just go and play the damn thing. I played WOW when it came out, I played when they added content, I stopped playing because i don't want to play games with little kids. I did that when I was a little kid, I don't need to now. I played EQ2, I liked it for a while before the community turned into rabid morons. I played AoC, I have never been more disappointed with anything in my life including my divorce. I played City of Heroes till I couldn't stomach it anymore. I tried CO, it was cool looking....and that's it. Hell I even played UO and spent five hours of my life cutting down trees to push up my cutting down trees skill, woo ha. All of these statements are my opinion, don't act like I butt raped you because you didn't like what I've said. I'm not telling you that any of these games may not be great for what you want or expect from an MMO. But I am getting seriously tired of reading page after page of "my dogs better than your dog, or who's dad is the toughest. Play your games people. If you don't like Blizzard, don't play WOW, don't like Sony, don't play EQ2. Is hopping up and down about the games you lust over really that damned important? You are not going to convince someone that your opinion is fact, period. So lets all have a beer, simmer down and simply love what we love to play. You need no justification for playing something you love, but stop expecting everyone else to do the same thing.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Josexph

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Goatgod76

*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys.

IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.

You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.

 

The funniest thing is how he compared Ever Quest II to WoW. First of all i still play Ever Quest II, and its still amazing! Second Ever Quest II came out before WoW, so im just wondering how it failed to wow

 

Ever Quest II: November 8, 2004

World of Warcraft: November 23, 2004

I hope your not referring to one of my posts, because nowhere did I compare WoW to EQ2.

And again..Girlgeek misses my point. And I believe like others, saw the first lines, stopped there, and started writing her WoW defense  post before taking it all in. BTW, I AM in school for Game Art & Design. And I WILL be making a game, or at least pitching it, that I have been dreaming up for several years now.

Look, WoW has it's merits...but it isn't the "Christ" of MMO's by a long shot. I haven't seen one that is since EQ. Although, EQ was my first MMO, and one of the first (UO was actually first), so it had nothing really to compare to, or live up to because the MMO genre was still being written.

Simply, companies need to stop trying to copy WoW...end of story. Companies need to get out of the tunnel vision of just cash becasue of the potential they saw from WoW's success and be brave to use what MMO's started with again, or should have even.  Get back to meaningful story driven quests, good UI, vast open ended world, plenty of classes/races, great crafting system (Vanguard's was very interesting) that has purpose for the economy and players (No crafting fodder. Everything is useful from the start), more emphasis on skill than gear, intelligent AI (Less predictable), and (IMO) no PvP. PvP in MMO's ruins class balancing for PvP AND PvE. Plus, never really gets balanced and is constantly tinkered with due to the onslaught of whiners...which are almost always the PvP'ers, go figure. Also draws in the worse crowd (See WoW or most any other PvP MMO server).

But saying WoW vs' all other MMO's? Ridiculous. It is first based on subscriptions, which is due to the ease of learning and play (1 to 80 in a couple of weeks?!?!??). NOT because it is so great or something. As someone else mentioned, they did nothing innovative or different from any other MMO, just polished things up. I have yet to see a truly innovative MMO produced.

Originally posted by Xziled

Actually your mistaken.

First Off, I didn't spit on WoW, I still have an active account. I just don't log into it.

Secondly, Ive probably got more titles from High end content than you think. So I do understand that gear is only a means to an end. But when your raiding Ulduar and you only have a boss or 2 that you havent beat on hard mode, it gets boring fast. I have all the tiitles and max faction from Wrath that I care to. I have every recipe in Inscription and LW prior to 3.2. There isnt much left. Sad thing is, none of it was hard.  There is absolutely no challenge in wow at this point. Its Boring.. Its for a casual gamer who is there to epeen and dance around dalaran in all his Epic Glory... who gives a f***... I get sick of the tells.. hey, where did that weapon come from, can i have 1g, hey let me link my old world orange sword in trade, let me start making up sentences using the word ANAL so i can get a laugh.... the whole wow experience has become more a giant children's chat room than an MMO game.

The term grind most certainly started during the EQ era.  Even before people were calling it a grind, it was coined as a treadmill.  I remember that very well, because it was very accurate and I thought it funny.  

Lets be honest, mmos were new and fresh back then.  They were also primative and unrefined.  Those that stuck around and played the early games didn't so much mind the huge time sinks.  That is just how things were as there was nothing to compare it to.  I enjoyed it and have some of my best mmo memories from back then, but do not kid myself for one second to think it was the pinnacle of mmo design.  I would never, ever want to go through that again and I think the masses of people have to agree with that. 

The demographic of mmo players back then might was rather linear, because the appeal was so damn narrow.   The specification of the side of the game box might as well have said: requires Pentium processor, 512mb ram, direct3d video card and males in their mid 20's with techincal backgrounds.

The market started rather niche and has since evolved.  The problem is that no one has evolved a more indepth hardcore experience that is the modern equivelant of what was offered 10 years ago.  I just don't think companies are willing to back the few people who might be able to pull it off.  That really isn't the fault of anyone, but the companies who are afraid to take a risk.