Originally posted by tanoril

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by Ngeldu5t

I see only one thing that can really hurt it bad....GameGuard

 

Half of what is said about Gameguard are usually based on hearsays.  Gameguard do have its share of problems, but all these problems can be traced back by the fact that Gameguard is a commerical software.  Some people only took what are said about GG on the forums to be correct, but half of them were wrong from what I researched.

Gameguard might not be the most compatible software, but it does do what it is meant to do (keep programs that it consider as cheats out).  Even though I think their method of preventing cheats are too over zealous and make people uncomfortable with using it.  Gameguard basically tried to fight fire with fire, but that fire can also burn the players somtimes, and not all are able to solve the problems themselves.

In conclusion, GG is effective in what it does, but the way it does it is rather too forceful and feels invasive to most.  There are those that disable or remove it through great effort in order to cheat, AKA goldfarmers or pure cheaters.  For those that pride themselves in their "clean" system, I have nothing to say to their misconception.

 

I don't understand why it needs to be there though.  The games that are produced in the west don't use that crap, why do asian games feel the need?  I shouldn't have to put a rootkit (which is what gameguard is) and then be told to uninstall my AV and firewall to make it work.  What kind of BS is that? 

That is what I was talking about.  Some of those informations are not current.  Anti-virus issue were a problem because no AV software would include GG since GG was a commerical software.  However, now there are ways for AV and firewall to be excluded from GG's list of programs to try to overwrite.  This have been patched and solved and plenty of reports are positive as it remove the conflict between GG and AV/firewall.  If someone use old version of GG that is just their problems.

I also posted this about GG before on another thread.  Asian games use it due to the dominance of cybercafe in Asia, and the most common cheat form comes in third party tools.  However, with GG active, they cannot use it with the game, and in cybercafe one does not have administrator privilege to do further hacking of the game. Usually GG are bundled with the game that choose to use it, and thus even if there are less cyber cafe in the US, it still works the way it should when stopping hacks and cheats.  The method it use is completely debatable since it have some questionable ways of stopping cheats.

Another big misconception is calling GG the same as a rootkit.  A rootkit is intented to take over your computer, but GG is only using methods SIMILAR to rootkit in order to hide from the process tree so people cannot easily disable it.  However, GG does install stuff without permission and can embed useless files in a system after even uninstall.  Some will claim those file are responsible for their system instability, but without a full diagnostic report I cannot say if GG caused it or if it is unrelated.  GG is not the most friendly software, but it is only half as bad as the rumors make it out to be.

If no one hacks or cheats, then GG would not have become necessary in the first place.  Or you can remove cybercafe from the world if you are capable of doing it.

Basically I just want to separate what people "believe" to be GG's fault and what actually is caused by GG.  Yes, GG cause problems sometimes, but not all of the problem reported.  GG is simply easy to pick on since there are plenty of negative opinions about it, but only half of those were valid and proven.

If Gameguard is only half as bad as claimed, then I don't want it on my system.

If it erases files on its own, I don't want it on my system.

If I can't play Aion without game guard, then I won't play Aion.

For a MMO that came out in late November, it's not a bad playing MMO. They have had 5 patches released in less than a year with bug fixes, class balances and content added which is a lot more than some of the other MMO's i have seen within the last 2-3 years.

GameGuard does have some problems with some AV and firewall software, but most AV programs can circuimvent that problem to work while up, however firewalls do need to come down.

As to the OP's question of whether it will make other companies stop pushing out buggy MMO's, probably not.

Originally posted by neoterrar

Quite frankly I haven't played it yet, nor have I looked into its original launch.

From my experience in MMOs all this hype usually doesn't translate into a good game.

...

The difference is that this time Aion hype comes from a polished released game & not from a suppossedly good game in developpement.

Quite frankly, your experience in MMOs doesn't seem to be translating so well into actual kwonledge of what you're talking about good sir.

Originally posted by Morgaren

AoC and War have been out longer than Aion in the east, and they are no where near as polished as Aion. I hope it does succeed and kills War And AoC, that will send the message the OP is talking about.

 

But how do you kill that which has no life?? @_@

Aion looks really good and appears polished, but i have yet to play until the 22nd. Once i get it ill make the decision. Yes companies need to make sure thier games are good to go and delay the release if it is not or we will get F2P looking games like Darkfall who charge a subscriprion.

I played WoW at release. I remember extremely long queues, daily server crashes/restarts and weekly patches/maintenance. The game itself was fun despite not being completely finished and completely lacking end-game content.

I didn't play Aion when it released in Korea. I don't really care about what happened in Korea. I'm just glad to see a polished game with a decent amount of end-game content releasing in the US. There really isn't anything else worth playing out there (if you've already done everything there is to do in WoW).

I am hoping that SW:ToR, FFXIV and GW2 are as polished when they release. I figure Aion will last me at least a year even if NCSoft doesn't add anything to it... and if they do add content then great. I'll have several games to pick from.


So, ya.. Aion is very polished. It helps that it was released in Korea first. That doesn't take anything away from the West release IMO. It doesn't matter to me if they beta test it in Korea before releasing it to the West.

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by 1niceone1

It's very frustrating to see games like AOC and WAR crumble to pieces because of their unpolished natures. If only more games took it upon themselves to push for the polish of games like WoW, guild wars, FFXI etc. I'm glad Aion is looking to be in the polished cattegory, I'm not sure if it's pressure from the producer that they are releasing these unfinished half arsed games but I hope for the companies that are releasing them and the poor fans that they stop. heres to another fully fledged game hitting the shelves.

 

The issue is in fact more complex, but most suffer from the lack of funds half way through production.  Polish is only doable by company with solid backgrounds or established companies with solid history.

Blizzard:  Warcraft series, Starcraft series, Diabolos series, and then WoW.  Solid and big company with a large following.

NCsoft:  One of the biggest game company in Asia.  Lineage 1 & 2, GW, COH/COV.  Solid online game company.

Square Enix (SE) AKA Square Soft:  Many many console games including FF series, also huge following.  Solid Japanese game company.

All these 3 comapnies have one thing in common, they are all well established and sort of "brand name" company that produce quality game and have the resources to make those with high degree of polish and are able to push games global.

Basically it seems polish comes easier when the devs have more resources to work with.

Yep can add Bioware to that list with millions and millions to fall back on if they hit a snag or 2 with TOR and need that extra 6 month. A smaller company does not have such luxury they are left with 3 options when they hit the wall.

1. Fold it

2. Launch it.

3. Try and raise more capital to see development through

Unfortunately for most companies investor's when it comes to 3 they think hmmmm they need a extra 6 month why wasnt in done on time so no matter how many projection's you show them they are sat with that uncomfortable thought in their head.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

If Gameguard is only half as bad as claimed, then I don't want it on my system.

If it erases files on its own, I don't want it on my system.

If I can't play Aion without game guard, then I won't play Aion.

Game Guard is actually not that bad.  It DOES cause problems, but that's usually because of the user's inability to configure their internet security software correctly to allow Game Guard proper access to their system.

It is VERY invasive and while I've never heard of it deleting any files off of your computer, it does conflict with any type of macro program/hardware you have, such as G15 or programmable mice.  Those macro buttons simply will not work in-game.

Which is a big issue for me considering Aion has a very extensive macro system built into the game, why the hell are they blocking me from using the hardware I paid for.

Anyway, you can play Aion without Game Guard.  Although, it's still up in the air if this can possibly get you banned or not.

Looks like they are fixing the GG error

twitter.com/aion_liv/status/3692109724

"Polish" is a stupid word and most people that vomit it all over internet video-game forums use it rhetorically.  How about these shitty companies start making games with solid gameplay instead of worrying about retarded details like polish and graphics and sound and shooting from the back of a horse.  More people play EQ1 than Darkfall and AoC and maybe even WAR.  There is a reason for that.  It had good gameplay.

Originally posted by OldManFunk

I played WoW at release. I remember extremely long queues, daily server crashes/restarts and weekly patches/maintenance. The game itself was fun despite not being completely finished and completely lacking end-game content.

I'm SO sick and fucking tired of this bullshit. People who obviously didn't play WoW at launch takes ever chance at a crack shot at the game just cause it's the cool thing to do. Molten Core was in the game from the very beginning, don't go around and spew out misinformation please.

Originally posted by boodis

Originally posted by OldManFunk

I played WoW at release. I remember extremely long queues, daily server crashes/restarts and weekly patches/maintenance. The game itself was fun despite not being completely finished and completely lacking end-game content.

 

I'm SO sick and fucking tired of this bullshit. People who obviously didn't play WoW at launch takes ever chance at a crack shot at the game just cause it's the cool thing to do. Molten Core was in the game from the very beginning, don't go around and spew out misinformation please.

 

I was in the wow beta at the very VERY early stage and played it after released he is correct in saying what he said.  The game was buggy and in no way should it of been released how it was, BUT saying that the team at blizzard got there shit together and most people never realized it because they fixed alot of the issues after release and the results speak for themselfs at one time 11 mil people played a p2p game and even if it was only 2 mil in NA that is still very impressive.

I was playing WOW on launch as well and my overriding memories of the first few weeks are it being really really REALLY laggy and some strange bugs which took years to fix (the harvesting bug?).  But as ^ says Blizzard did do something very quickly and even if it took years to fix some at elast there was the impression that they were doing stuff (although when they removed /bug about 6 months or a year or whatever after launch as there were no more bugs to be found in the game, I did think they were taking the piss a tad).

The OP has a good point though.  If you discount WOW then what other MMO would you say has been relatively successul since launch?  One example I would give is LOTRO and this is another game which was relatively polished at launch.  It is irrelevant whether Aion got launched in the East first, to the western market it is new and polished and it will be interesteing to see whether it can sustain interest 1+ months after launch (which after all is the big challenge).  One of the reasons you could argue WOW being so popular in the east is that it was a pretty mature product by the time it launched there due to it being in service in the west, so as I said before I think the people going on about it being in China first are being utterly and totally irrelevant.

Originally posted by schloob

"Polish" is a stupid word and most people that vomit it all over internet video-game forums use it rhetorically.  How about these shitty companies start making games with solid gameplay instead of worrying about retarded details like polish and graphics and sound and shooting from the back of a horse.  More people play EQ1 than Darkfall and AoC and maybe even WAR.  There is a reason for that.  It had good gameplay.

When i vomit the word polish im talking about smooth mechanics and a game that is pretty much bug free. AOC  was a buggy mess at launch at least from what i saw. I had to mess with settings as a work around just to log into the game  Warhammer has crashes in what little RVR that still remains to this day. Someone should have vomited some polish on  both of  them before release.  I dont know how many people play EQ but after 10 yrs of vomiting im sure it is well polished.  Aion runs well and is virtually bug free, polish has nothing to do with the graphics although they are pretty good as well depending on what type art one prefers.  Now im all out of vomit and am heading to the fridge to reload.

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by zazz

Lmao WoW has a horriblle launch , some of you really do come in onto threads and talk ill informed crap.

 

I hope you are not talking about me, cuz I did not say anything about WoW being polished at launch.  i only listed WoW as one of the games Blizzard have made quite a bit of money off of which established their reputation as a solid company that are able to produce games with good degree of polish.

If you were not talking about my replies, then ignore this, but I feel like I need to clear it up since some might interpret my analysis the wrong way.

No worries i wasnt, it was more of a sweeping statement.

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by Ngeldu5t

I see only one thing that can really hurt it bad....GameGuard

 

Half of what is said about Gameguard are usually based on hearsays.  Gameguard do have its share of problems, but all these problems can be traced back by the fact that Gameguard is a commerical software.  Some people only took what are said about GG on the forums to be correct, but half of them were wrong from what I researched.

Gameguard might not be the most compatible software, but it does do what it is meant to do (keep programs that it consider as cheats out).  Even though I think their method of preventing cheats are too over zealous and make people uncomfortable with using it.  Gameguard basically tried to fight fire with fire, but that fire can also burn the players somtimes, and not all are able to solve the problems themselves.

In conclusion, GG is effective in what it does, but the way it does it is rather too forceful and feels invasive to most.  There are those that disable or remove it through great effort in order to cheat, AKA goldfarmers or pure cheaters.  For those that pride themselves in their "clean" system, I have nothing to say to their misconception.

Sorry but I have to call you out on this one as it's simply not true. Gameguard is not effective at preventing cheats and bots as you claim, it is highly inefficient at that, anyone with even basic knowledge can get around it within minutes of them releasing a patch. So it doesn't do what it is supposed to do. The only thing it succeds at is causing problems for users and treating legitimate users like they are doing something wrong. Seriously, why would a legitimate consumer have to mess with their antivirus software just to get a game working, when the people that are using bots can get around it within minutes and get cheats/bots going. 

It just doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by Raztor

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by Ngeldu5t

I see only one thing that can really hurt it bad....GameGuard

 

Half of what is said about Gameguard are usually based on hearsays.  Gameguard do have its share of problems, but all these problems can be traced back by the fact that Gameguard is a commerical software.  Some people only took what are said about GG on the forums to be correct, but half of them were wrong from what I researched.

Gameguard might not be the most compatible software, but it does do what it is meant to do (keep programs that it consider as cheats out).  Even though I think their method of preventing cheats are too over zealous and make people uncomfortable with using it.  Gameguard basically tried to fight fire with fire, but that fire can also burn the players somtimes, and not all are able to solve the problems themselves.

In conclusion, GG is effective in what it does, but the way it does it is rather too forceful and feels invasive to most.  There are those that disable or remove it through great effort in order to cheat, AKA goldfarmers or pure cheaters.  For those that pride themselves in their "clean" system, I have nothing to say to their misconception.

Sorry but I have to call you out on this one as it's simply not true. Gameguard is not effective at preventing cheats and bots as you claim, it is highly inefficient at that, anyone with even basic knowledge can get around it within minutes of them releasing a patch. So it doesn't do what it is supposed to do. The only thing it succeds at is causing problems for users and treating legitimate users like they are doing something wrong. Seriously, why would a legitimate consumer have to mess with their antivirus software just to get a game working, when the people that are using bots can get around it within minutes and get cheats/bots going. 

 

It just doesn't make any sense.

Of course it doesn't make sense. 

If you get around Gameguard by remove, disable, or get around it, why would you expect for it to be effective or even work at all?  You already basically disabled it from what it is suppose to do, and the reason why people knows how to disable it is because people with ACUTAL computer knowledge hacked it and taught the rest of the people how to do it step by step almost.

Gamegard is in fact effective in Asian Cybercafe where players cannot hack Gameguard because it is not their computer and their access to use the computers in a cybercafe is only for gaming.  In a cybercafe only 3rd party tools can be used as a cheating mehtod in a game and GG prevents that just fine.  Basically you are telling me GG is not effective when it is disabled, then I ask of you, if I turn my computer off should I expect to be able to server the web with it?  LOL

There are ways to set anti-virus software to exceptions to GG so it can be run without conflict, this is already patched, why argue with old data?    Only real issue with GG is that it use a invasive way to hide itself and processes that is similar to rootkit, but GG does not seek to take over your computer.  Another issue is I do not understand how people can say they have enough knowledge to disable GG, but does not have enough knowledge to look up informations from proper sources..

Edit:  If you want to know why AV and Firewall use to cause problems with old unpatched GG, simply look up informations on the web, but not from a forum source.  Plenty of online sources tell you that GG and AV's issue was because it was a developed as a commercial software.

Originally posted by Markn12

Originally posted by boodis

Originally posted by OldManFunk

I played WoW at release. I remember extremely long queues, daily server crashes/restarts and weekly patches/maintenance. The game itself was fun despite not being completely finished and completely lacking end-game content.

 

I'm SO sick and fucking tired of this bullshit. People who obviously didn't play WoW at launch takes ever chance at a crack shot at the game just cause it's the cool thing to do. Molten Core was in the game from the very beginning, don't go around and spew out misinformation please.

 

 

I was in the wow beta at the very VERY early stage and played it after released he is correct in saying what he said.  The game was buggy and in no way should it of been released how it was, BUT saying that the team at blizzard got there shit together and most people never realized it because they fixed alot of the issues after release and the results speak for themselfs at one time 11 mil people played a p2p game and even if it was only 2 mil in NA that is still very impressive.

I know this is a bit off topic but I played WOW at launch too and it is correct to say it was buggy on release. I recall the long queues as well. However, Blizzard being a great company, good marketing, Longevity with our forgetful world of people, and all that has gone away.

In regards to Aion, to me it is not setting a new bar it is just executing well on the standards. Having played the CB I think Aion is a solid, enjoyable game that will have a good release here in NA. PVP being the highlight and the area where, If I were to say the game sets a new bar, would be it.

I know im a little late getting to this thread but I want to respond back to the third page about people generalizing genre types based on it being "asian" or "western".  Someone said that American's tend to generalize about a small segment of people.  And while I have found that there are tons of moronic Americans living in this country, aka creationists, other people do generalize just as bad if not worse.  My best example for this is Yahtzee from Zero Punctuation.  If you watch any of his videos talking about JRPGs then you would know that every country has people that generalize about other cultures/countries.  Its ignorant to just say everything negative that someone does is because he is American.