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9/07/09 11:51:05 PM#41
Originally posted by metalhead980 Nerfing one skill or skill set only makes another overpowered nothing is ever truely balanced. Remember when DF first released? and Everyone was screaming that Magic and archery were lame compared to 2h melee? See how shit changes? Its the norm in these games. Play a class based game they have a better handle on that stuff. In a sandbox if your playing a gimped setup just bring more people then it wont matter.
Is this your first sandbox game? UO had better balance than this game Game isn't balanced. I would say the majority of the player base knows its not balanced. If the game was balanced melee would be just as effective as magic in melee range, archery would be almost as effective as magic at range. They have imporved archery with the addition of elemental bow but the balance is still out of wack because magic does too much dmg and there isn't any way to counter it. Once melee and archery have counters to magic, the game will be balanced.
UO had OP mages also once they got nerfed another skill set was OP. Same shit different game. Same shit in SWG, In UO, IN EVE and in DF. You play melee? boo hoo you were Op at the start of the game now you blow get over it. In a couple months archery will be OP and then Melee again. Too many variables to balance efficiently. If you are so pissed at getting owned by magic then please raise magic? AV just made it easier to skill up, have fun.
Edit: Awesome a child just insulted me with a "First sandbox" comment. Dude I was playing MUds when you were playing legos at 7 years old. You were what 11 when UO released? stop making believe you know what your talking about.
Then you know nothing about balance or how it can be done effectively in a non class system. It would be simple: give melee can keep people from running away easily, give archery an interrupt skill, balance out AoE dmg. Everyone uses magic in DFO because its OP I have magic. I'm not crying because I'm getting owend by magic 24/7. I'm simply pointing out that magic is the only effective play style.
Currently playing Rift |
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9/08/09 1:08:34 AM#42
Originally posted by xpiher Is this your first sandbox game? UO had better balance than this game Game isn't balanced. I would say the majority of the player base knows its not balanced. If the game was balanced melee would be just as effective as magic in melee range, archery would be almost as effective as magic at range. They have imporved archery with the addition of elemental bow but the balance is still out of wack because magic does too much dmg and there isn't any way to counter it. Once melee and archery have counters to magic, the game will be balanced.
UO had OP mages also once they got nerfed another skill set was OP. Same shit different game. Same shit in SWG, In UO, IN EVE and in DF. You play melee? boo hoo you were Op at the start of the game now you blow get over it. In a couple months archery will be OP and then Melee again. Too many variables to balance efficiently. If you are so pissed at getting owned by magic then please raise magic? AV just made it easier to skill up, have fun.
Edit: Awesome a child just insulted me with a "First sandbox" comment. Dude I was playing MUds when you were playing legos at 7 years old. You were what 11 when UO released? stop making believe you know what your talking about.
Then you know nothing about balance or how it can be done effectively in a non class system. It would be simple: give melee can keep people from running away easily, give archery an interrupt skill, balance out AoE dmg. Everyone uses magic in DFO because its OP I have magic. I'm not crying because I'm getting owend by magic 24/7. I'm simply pointing out that magic is the only effective play style. Holy shit give a skill set in a sandbox game CC? and that's supposed to balance them? Are you crazy?!?!? You don't toss CC on a balance issue in a non-skill capped game. In October when DF buffs both Archery and Melee one of them will be OP and magic won't be the playstyle of choice. People will be happy but it still won't be balanced. You can not balance a skillbased system, Devs have been trying since 1997 and have yet to get that perfect balance every Pvper cries for. The most you can hope for is that your prefered playstyle has more buff patches than the others. Seriously name one sandbox MMO that was completely balanced for every skill set? you can't. All I can say is roll with the nerfs man, You can tell me one game has a better balance than DF but don't you dare say another MMO is completely balanced because it's impossible in a sandbox mmo. Just too many variables to work with.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum |
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9/08/09 1:35:20 AM#43
I would disagree that there are too many variables to work with. AV would go a great deal to balance the game properly by making buffs combat useable, or if not combat usebale last longer and adding skills to melee and archery.
Currently playing Rift |
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DarthRaiden
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/20/05
i make art, Forum Terrorist |
9/08/09 6:37:27 AM#44
Lets check ..just one type of ammunition for archery ,lootable from easiest mobs and the craft is cheap , mellee no need for reagents at all and then magic ... no craftable ammo, different type of reagents for different spells, reagents on different mobs. Archery better then magic to land hits at further away targets and better in soloing higher level mobs. mana bar drains a lot quicker doing the higher damage spells compared to to the dps archery deals with 1 stam bar. Magic deals fully justified more damage on the high level spells and is balanced towards requirements (time and ressource investment / stats). -----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- "There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE) |
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9/08/09 11:53:06 AM#45
Originally posted by xpiher Is this your first sandbox game? UO had better balance than this game Game isn't balanced. I would say the majority of the player base knows its not balanced. If the game was balanced melee would be just as effective as magic in melee range, archery would be almost as effective as magic at range. They have imporved archery with the addition of elemental bow but the balance is still out of wack because magic does too much dmg and there isn't any way to counter it. Once melee and archery have counters to magic, the game will be balanced.
UO had OP mages also once they got nerfed another skill set was OP. Same shit different game. Same shit in SWG, In UO, IN EVE and in DF. You play melee? boo hoo you were Op at the start of the game now you blow get over it. In a couple months archery will be OP and then Melee again. Too many variables to balance efficiently. If you are so pissed at getting owned by magic then please raise magic? AV just made it easier to skill up, have fun.
Edit: Awesome a child just insulted me with a "First sandbox" comment. Dude I was playing MUds when you were playing legos at 7 years old. You were what 11 when UO released? stop making believe you know what your talking about.
Then you know nothing about balance or how it can be done effectively in a non class system. It would be simple: give melee can keep people from running away easily, give archery an interrupt skill, balance out AoE dmg. Everyone uses magic in DFO because its OP I have magic. I'm not crying because I'm getting owend by magic 24/7. I'm simply pointing out that magic is the only effective play style.
Seriously, balance and simple don't go together in games. Unless you are talking about symmetric game-play like the tank game from Atari's "Combat" title. (that should date me a bit |
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9/08/09 12:13:14 PM#46
Originally posted by Nipashnaka Is this your first sandbox game? UO had better balance than this game Game isn't balanced. I would say the majority of the player base knows its not balanced. If the game was balanced melee would be just as effective as magic in melee range, archery would be almost as effective as magic at range. They have imporved archery with the addition of elemental bow but the balance is still out of wack because magic does too much dmg and there isn't any way to counter it. Once melee and archery have counters to magic, the game will be balanced.
UO had OP mages also once they got nerfed another skill set was OP. Same shit different game. Same shit in SWG, In UO, IN EVE and in DF. You play melee? boo hoo you were Op at the start of the game now you blow get over it. In a couple months archery will be OP and then Melee again. Too many variables to balance efficiently. If you are so pissed at getting owned by magic then please raise magic? AV just made it easier to skill up, have fun.
Edit: Awesome a child just insulted me with a "First sandbox" comment. Dude I was playing MUds when you were playing legos at 7 years old. You were what 11 when UO released? stop making believe you know what your talking about.
Then you know nothing about balance or how it can be done effectively in a non class system. It would be simple: give melee can keep people from running away easily, give archery an interrupt skill, balance out AoE dmg. Everyone uses magic in DFO because its OP I have magic. I'm not crying because I'm getting owend by magic 24/7. I'm simply pointing out that magic is the only effective play style.
Seriously, balance and simple don't go together in games. Unless you are talking about symmetric game-play like the tank game from Atari's "Combat" title. (that should date me a bit
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9/08/09 2:26:41 PM#47
Originally posted by DarthRaiden
You don't balance a game around how long it takes to level up since everyone will reach cap eventually. You balance the game around max and then work your way down. Now that everyone has magic, no one uses anything else. Magic is OP plain and simple. To the person who said simple and balance don't go hand in hand... In this case it does. AV could very few changes to balance out archery and melee vs magic. They pretty much balanced archery vs magic with the addition of transumted bows. Now they have to balance it out a little further by giving people different types of arrows in order to justify the damage increase. To balance melee vs magic melee simply needs a hinder skill, knockdown, or make siez combat useable (they need to fix all the anti moumentum skills, none of them work if a person is sprinting). Taking it a step further, they should also make buffs and debuffs combat useable then magic, melee, and archery would balance against each other.
Currently playing Rift |
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9/08/09 7:19:32 PM#48
Originally posted by xpiher
You don't balance a game around how long it takes to level up since everyone will reach cap eventually. You balance the game around max and then work your way down. Now that everyone has magic, no one uses anything else. Magic is OP plain and simple. To the person who said simple and balance don't go hand in hand... In this case it does. AV could very few changes to balance out archery and melee vs magic. They pretty much balanced archery vs magic with the addition of transumted bows. Now they have to balance it out a little further by giving people different types of arrows in order to justify the damage increase. To balance melee vs magic melee simply needs a hinder skill, knockdown, or make siez combat useable (they need to fix all the anti moumentum skills, none of them work if a person is sprinting). Taking it a step further, they should also make buffs and debuffs combat useable then magic, melee, and archery would balance against each other. You are grossly understating what goes into balancing game systems in an MMO. You really need several guys with advanced math degrees and industry experience staring at spreadsheets all day. Random forum suggestions with no understanding of the underlying technical constraints have a very low probability of yielding workable solutions. |
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9/09/09 1:59:36 AM#49
Originally posted by Nipashnaka You are grossly understating what goes into balancing game systems in an MMO. You really need several guys with advanced math degrees and industry experience staring at spreadsheets all day. Random forum suggestions with no understanding of the underlying technical constraints have a very low probability of yielding workable solutions.
And if those people don't play the game and know how the skill work in an actual setting they won't be able to balance the game properly either. TBH, the main reason why games never get balanced properly is becuase the developers tend not to play the game after a certain pont. While GW never got true balance, it did get a balance rotation. This was done because Izzy, the developer in charge of balancing the game, played the game actively in a guild and spent most of his time watching PvP matches to find out what the current meta was. If you played the game (don't know if you do or not) you would know what type of things can be done to balance the game out better then the current situation. As I've said, simple shit like makign healing, buffs, and debuffs combat useable would do wonders to balancing out the game.
Currently playing Rift |
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9/09/09 10:54:25 AM#50
Originally posted by xpiher You are grossly understating what goes into balancing game systems in an MMO. You really need several guys with advanced math degrees and industry experience staring at spreadsheets all day. Random forum suggestions with no understanding of the underlying technical constraints have a very low probability of yielding workable solutions.
And if those people don't play the game and know how the skill work in an actual setting they won't be able to balance the game properly either. TBH, the main reason why games never get balanced properly is becuase the developers tend not to play the game after a certain pont. While GW never got true balance, it did get a balance rotation. This was done because Izzy, the developer in charge of balancing the game, played the game actively in a guild and spent most of his time watching PvP matches to find out what the current meta was. If you played the game (don't know if you do or not) you would know what type of things can be done to balance the game out better then the current situation. As I've said, simple shit like makign healing, buffs, and debuffs combat useable would do wonders to balancing out the game.
I greatly enjoy sandbox hardcore PvP games, so I don't play Darkfall. I'll give you an example of what I meant when I was talking about tech constraints. You said: "they need to fix all the anti moumentum skills, none of them work if a person is sprinting". This assertion is completely obvious, and I think generically true for any sane combat system. Yes, anti-momentum needs to work if someone is sprinting. Now enter the tech limitation. What if, for example, sprinting was a special case - using a completely different animation system/super-state (maybe something legacy and/or hard-coded) and not considered "movement" by the code for purposes of applying modifiers? Or maybe the sprinting animation just can't scale to be too slow. These are just examples, but I'm sure similar sort-sighted technical decisions abound. Every MMO has seemingly silly and arbitrary technical constraints that designers have to work around. Novice studios just have more, and more obvious ones that should have been corrected long before launch. And this is why experience matters. Without knowing what those are specifically for DF it's hard to say what's easy and hard to do. |
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9/09/09 11:16:14 AM#51
Originally posted by Nipashnaka
Would you care to be more specific? 1) You say you enjoy sandbox hardcore pvp games, so don't play DFO. What game(s) do you play and consider to fit that description, and why don't you find DFO to fit it? 2) From prior posts in your brief time at MMORPG, you appear to have a good understanding of the complexity and skill required to code a MMO. Can you explain in detail from your experience playing DFO what AV has done well, and what has resulted in you calling them "inexperienced"? Those are really my only two questions, but would like to make a comment on the "Pro vs Amature" remark. I've been a consultant for 30-years and have worked with countless CEO's and high level owners responsible for significant corporations. While a great number of them are good at what they do, a great number, even with their "experience and credentials" are absolute morons. You can't teach street smarts and common sense in business school, and you can't teach vision and judgement in game developer school or whatever you call it. Obviously AV has the talent and experience to produce what it has, and what DFO is today, is far more complex than any of what you call "Professional" MMO's I've played. You are very quick to call a gaming company amatures, when all evidence is to the contrary by the shear existance of DFO alone and how many of its moving parts exist and work. One more thing. I agree it's extremely difficult to balance, but to suggest the "Pros" are better at it is laughable, when history shows the opposite to be true. The developers in AV are PvP Players and I'd wager collectively have far greater experience with actually playing PvP games and understanding what "balance" even means in a PvP-Centric game than developers you appear to hold in higher regard. So I guess this does lead me to a third question.. 3) Who are these "Pros" you speak of and what is their backround or even concern where PvP is referenced? -CC "Lately it occurs to me, |
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9/09/09 11:53:49 AM#52
Originally posted by ChinaCat
Would you care to be more specific? 1) You say you enjoy sandbox hardcore pvp games, so don't play DFO. What game(s) do you play and consider to fit that description, and why don't you find DFO to fit it? 2) From prior posts in your brief time at MMORPG, you appear to have a good understanding of the complexity and skill required to code a MMO. Can you explain in detail from your experience playing DFO what AV has done well, and what has resulted in you calling them "inexperienced"? Those are really my only two questions, but would like to make a comment on the "Pro vs Amature" remark. I've been a consultant for 30-years and have worked with countless CEO's and high level owners responsible for significant corporations. While a great number of them are good at what they do, a great number, even with their "experience and credentials" are absolute morons. You can't teach street smarts and common sense in business school, and you can't teach vision and judgement in game developer school or whatever you call it. Obviously AV has the talent and experience to produce what it has, and what DFO is today, is far more complex than any of what you call "Professional" MMO's I've played. You are very quick to call a gaming company amatures, when all evidence is to the contrary by the shear existance of DFO alone and how many of its moving parts exist and work. -CC
I'm not really into arguing my opinion on internet forums, nor getting mired into some fan v. hater flame thread. I'm not going to do some detailed point-by-point write up. Your post suspiciously reads like someone who is trying to pick that fight. I have nothing against DF. I checked out the game and didn't like it, but I wish them great success. But to me, their inexperience is obvious. Just examining their systems it's pretty clear a lot of the implications of decisions (code/design/production) wasn't well thought-through with respect to the emergent behavior of players in an online game. The GUI and animations are pretty telling as well, although to some degree that's forgivable. MMOs don't have "moving parts." But they have many components. To name a few there is database, data-model, server, network layer, client-server-data stream, client (rendering, game code and animation system), content (art, monsters,levels, music), game systems, etc. All of these things are technically well-known in the realm of computer science. You can buy a book on how to do MMO server architecture, for example. That DFO exists is merely a testament to AV's persistence and ability to obtain and secure funding, not experience. Experience will answer the questions like "how to I organize sources and sinks" or "how many unique stats can the server handle tracking on every player" or "what motion prediction scheme should I use to fulfill the design vision of my combat system" or "how will players likely exploit a system where you can level skills by casting magic at the sky." Trial and error will yield something that's over-budget and past your deadline, and something with deep fundamental flaws. FYI there is no "game developer school" that's really worth much. By experience I mean making successful MMOs. Before there were MMOs, there were MUDs, and Raph Koster made successful MUDs (leveraging related experience is valid too). It's also valid to learn from others who are experienced, but then you are likely already at a successful MMO company and part of that process. If you genuinely "work with countless CEOs" then you know no board of directors would ever hire a CEO based on his street smarts. They hire CEOs based on their experience being CEOs (or Executive VPs, Directors, or something related to the job). That your street smart CEO somehow wound up as head of some company doesn't mean he is experienced in being a leader, and setting high level direction. Since you asked: My favorite MMO memories are (in order) : "old school" UO, Shadowbane, and EVE Online. All three of these games are varying degrees of sandbox and hardcore. And believe it or not, Puzzle Pirates which was great fun. I've played countless other MMOs (WoW, DAoC, L2, AoC, etc, etc) but they don't keep me up nights in the same way. I'm not going to break down what my definitions of sandbox and hardcore are, but I don't see DFO in those categories. Just my opinion. My main point is 3 fold: 1) Balance is hard, even for people who have been doing it for a very long time. 2) Suggestions to balance a specific MMO without knowledge of the underlying technical decisions are generally not useful (although this isn't always the case) 3) AV seems like their key personnel are not very experienced at making MMOs, but again this isn't an insult just an observation. |
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9/09/09 12:44:51 PM#53
@Nipashnaka Good post, thanks. I agree with most of what you said above. |
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9/09/09 1:48:22 PM#54
Originally posted by Nipashnaka
I'm not really into arguing my opinion on internet forums, nor getting mired into some fan v. hater flame thread. I'm not going to do some detailed point-by-point write up. Your post suspiciously reads like someone who is trying to pick that fight. I have nothing against DF. I checked out the game and didn't like it, but I wish them great success. But to me, their inexperience is obvious. Just examining their systems it's pretty clear a lot of the implications of decisions (code/design/production) wasn't well thought-through with respect to the emergent behavior of players in an online game. The GUI and animations are pretty telling as well, although to some degree that's forgivable. MMOs don't have "moving parts." But they have many components. To name a few there is database, data-model, server, network layer, client-server-data stream, client (rendering, game code and animation system), content (art, monsters,levels, music), game systems, etc. All of these things are technically well-known in the realm of computer science. You can buy a book on how to do MMO server architecture, for example. That DFO exists is merely a testament to AV's persistence and ability to obtain and secure funding, not experience. Experience will answer the questions like "how to I organize sources and sinks" or "how many unique stats can the server handle tracking on every player" or "what motion prediction scheme should I use to fulfill the design vision of my combat system" or "how will players likely exploit a system where you can level skills by casting magic at the sky." Trial and error will yield something that's over-budget and past your deadline, and something with deep fundamental flaws. FYI there is no "game developer school" that's really worth much. By experience I mean making successful MMOs. Before there were MMOs, there were MUDs, and Raph Koster made successful MUDs (leveraging related experience is valid too). It's also valid to learn from others who are experienced, but then you are likely already at a successful MMO company and part of that process. If you genuinely "work with countless CEOs" then you know no board of directors would ever hire a CEO based on his street smarts. They hire CEOs based on their experience being CEOs (or Executive VPs, Directors, or something related to the job). That your street smart CEO somehow wound up as head of some company doesn't mean he is experienced in being a leader, and setting high level direction. Since you asked: My favorite MMO memories are (in order) : "old school" UO, Shadowbane, and EVE Online. All three of these games are varying degrees of sandbox and hardcore. And believe it or not, Puzzle Pirates which was great fun. I've played countless other MMOs (WoW, DAoC, L2, AoC, etc, etc) but they don't keep me up nights in the same way. I'm not going to break down what my definitions of sandbox and hardcore are, but I don't see DFO in those categories. Just my opinion. My main point is 3 fold: 1) Balance is hard, even for people who have been doing it for a very long time. 2) Suggestions to balance a specific MMO without knowledge of the underlying technical decisions are generally not useful (although this isn't always the case) 3) AV seems like their key personnel are not very experienced at making MMOs, but again this isn't an insult just an observation.
Great. Thank you for elaborating. I wasn't looking for a fight. I was merely lookijng for a way to understand your opinion. CEO's and others in high level positions may not get their jobs based upon street smarts; but that wasn't my point; and my reference to "developer school" was just a figure of speech. My point is qualifications alone don't guarantee results, or that the individual in X position will have the vision and intuition to know what needs to be done. While there are certain common factors in all corporate stuctures, or MMO's for that matter, in both examples they all have unique cultures and as such, require its own approach. Since no one but AV made DFO, I can't think of a better company for the job =) I agree with you on UO; have nothing to say about EvE except it's a different game where the avatar is a space ship; and Shadowbane beta was great fun, although I understand it was plagued with coding issues at release. Actually on that note, DFO has achieved a great deal more than Shadowbane and is plagued by far less issues, so not sure if you consider Woffpack amatures, or if that even matters since you liked that game. Given the huge number of MMO's, I'm certain you'd agree that there aren't any other PvP-Centric games to even compare it to, other than those few you've named, or darktide in Asherons Call from circa 2000 or EQ's Zek servers at same time period. As one who likes this genre, it's a shame you merely "checked it out". Having played DFO since beta I have probably lost perspective from a new players point of view, but when i started, it definately took time to get in to DFO; probably because of the initial experience with the UI before one remaps it; as an example. Take care -CC "Lately it occurs to me, |
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9/10/09 7:56:18 AM#55
Ok I have to admit I only read the first 3 posts in this topic but, WOW! It's highly unusual to hear positive praise about a patch on an mmo... The article on MMO's front page today and this post are making me quite curious... I think I will have to sample this one! |
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9/10/09 8:19:29 AM#56
Originally posted by Nipashnaka
I'm not really into arguing my opinion on internet forums, nor getting mired into some fan v. hater flame thread. I'm not going to do some detailed point-by-point write up. Your post suspiciously reads like someone who is trying to pick that fight. I have nothing against DF. I checked out the game and didn't like it, but I wish them great success. But to me, their inexperience is obvious. Just examining their systems it's pretty clear a lot of the implications of decisions (code/design/production) wasn't well thought-through with respect to the emergent behavior of players in an online game. The GUI and animations are pretty telling as well, although to some degree that's forgivable. MMOs don't have "moving parts." But they have many components. To name a few there is database, data-model, server, network layer, client-server-data stream, client (rendering, game code and animation system), content (art, monsters,levels, music), game systems, etc. All of these things are technically well-known in the realm of computer science. You can buy a book on how to do MMO server architecture, for example. That DFO exists is merely a testament to AV's persistence and ability to obtain and secure funding, not experience. Experience will answer the questions like "how to I organize sources and sinks" or "how many unique stats can the server handle tracking on every player" or "what motion prediction scheme should I use to fulfill the design vision of my combat system" or "how will players likely exploit a system where you can level skills by casting magic at the sky." Trial and error will yield something that's over-budget and past your deadline, and something with deep fundamental flaws. FYI there is no "game developer school" that's really worth much. By experience I mean making successful MMOs. Before there were MMOs, there were MUDs, and Raph Koster made successful MUDs (leveraging related experience is valid too). It's also valid to learn from others who are experienced, but then you are likely already at a successful MMO company and part of that process. If you genuinely "work with countless CEOs" then you know no board of directors would ever hire a CEO based on his street smarts. They hire CEOs based on their experience being CEOs (or Executive VPs, Directors, or something related to the job). That your street smart CEO somehow wound up as head of some company doesn't mean he is experienced in being a leader, and setting high level direction. Since you asked: My favorite MMO memories are (in order) : "old school" UO, Shadowbane, and EVE Online. All three of these games are varying degrees of sandbox and hardcore. And believe it or not, Puzzle Pirates which was great fun. I've played countless other MMOs (WoW, DAoC, L2, AoC, etc, etc) but they don't keep me up nights in the same way. I'm not going to break down what my definitions of sandbox and hardcore are, but I don't see DFO in those categories. Just my opinion. My main point is 3 fold: 1) Balance is hard, even for people who have been doing it for a very long time. 2) Suggestions to balance a specific MMO without knowledge of the underlying technical decisions are generally not useful (although this isn't always the case) 3) AV seems like their key personnel are not very experienced at making MMOs, but again this isn't an insult just an observation.
Shadowbane had horrible balance issues with flying classes. DF choose to stay away from flying mounts or skills. SB had horrible issues with server lag due to over use of NPC guards. Df went with towers and fewer NPCS. SB had issues with cities being built in areas where they wanted to update content. DF went with stationary build areas.
I will agree in some areas, especially in the game design department (melee combat, UI and a few others that you said) Aventuriine dropped the ball due likely to inexperience. But their client stability was impeccable. Better optimized then Warhammer. Server stability So So but given the scope of the client they wanted to build and built (10k+ users in a seamless world) its pretty damn impressive.
In reality DF is like most other games, a mixed bag. Also an important lesson i think you are missing from all this is, that even with all the experience in the world you still miss shit. Especially with something as complicated as an MMO.
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9/10/09 10:11:31 AM#57
Originally posted by gotha
I'm not really into arguing my opinion on internet forums, nor getting mired into some fan v. hater flame thread. I'm not going to do some detailed point-by-point write up. Your post suspiciously reads like someone who is trying to pick that fight. I have nothing against DF. I checked out the game and didn't like it, but I wish them great success. But to me, their inexperience is obvious. Just examining their systems it's pretty clear a lot of the implications of decisions (code/design/production) wasn't well thought-through with respect to the emergent behavior of players in an online game. The GUI and animations are pretty telling as well, although to some degree that's forgivable. MMOs don't have "moving parts." But they have many components. To name a few there is database, data-model, server, network layer, client-server-data stream, client (rendering, game code and animation system), content (art, monsters,levels, music), game systems, etc. All of these things are technically well-known in the realm of computer science. You can buy a book on how to do MMO server architecture, for example. That DFO exists is merely a testament to AV's persistence and ability to obtain and secure funding, not experience. Experience will answer the questions like "how to I organize sources and sinks" or "how many unique stats can the server handle tracking on every player" or "what motion prediction scheme should I use to fulfill the design vision of my combat system" or "how will players likely exploit a system where you can level skills by casting magic at the sky." Trial and error will yield something that's over-budget and past your deadline, and something with deep fundamental flaws. FYI there is no "game developer school" that's really worth much. By experience I mean making successful MMOs. Before there were MMOs, there were MUDs, and Raph Koster made successful MUDs (leveraging related experience is valid too). It's also valid to learn from others who are experienced, but then you are likely already at a successful MMO company and part of that process. If you genuinely "work with countless CEOs" then you know no board of directors would ever hire a CEO based on his street smarts. They hire CEOs based on their experience being CEOs (or Executive VPs, Directors, or something related to the job). That your street smart CEO somehow wound up as head of some company doesn't mean he is experienced in being a leader, and setting high level direction. Since you asked: My favorite MMO memories are (in order) : "old school" UO, Shadowbane, and EVE Online. All three of these games are varying degrees of sandbox and hardcore. And believe it or not, Puzzle Pirates which was great fun. I've played countless other MMOs (WoW, DAoC, L2, AoC, etc, etc) but they don't keep me up nights in the same way. I'm not going to break down what my definitions of sandbox and hardcore are, but I don't see DFO in those categories. Just my opinion. My main point is 3 fold: 1) Balance is hard, even for people who have been doing it for a very long time. 2) Suggestions to balance a specific MMO without knowledge of the underlying technical decisions are generally not useful (although this isn't always the case) 3) AV seems like their key personnel are not very experienced at making MMOs, but again this isn't an insult just an observation.
Shadowbane had horrible balance issues with flying classes. DF choose to stay away from flying mounts or skills. SB had horrible issues with server lag due to over use of NPC guards. Df went with towers and fewer NPCS. SB had issues with cities being built in areas where they wanted to update content. DF went with stationary build areas.
I will agree in some areas, especially in the game design department (melee combat, UI and a few others that you said) Aventuriine dropped the ball due likely to inexperience. But their client stability was impeccable. Better optimized then Warhammer. Server stability So So but given the scope of the client they wanted to build and built (10k+ users in a seamless world) its pretty damn impressive.
In reality DF is like most other games, a mixed bag. Also an important lesson i think you are missing from all this is, that even with all the experience in the world you still miss shit. Especially with something as complicated as an MMO.
Well yes, I'm fairly certain Wolfpack was an inexperienced crew as well. It was still an incredibly fun game while it lasted, but there were deep fundamental flaws which I would consider to be "rookie mistakes." Most of these had to do with longevity (the game encouraged large zerg alliances and had no counter-balance against that). There's kind of an interesting notion here that experience does not equal fun. Often it's the outsiders which end up being innovators because they bring a fresh perspective. However, inexperience also brings with it mistakes, and then it becomes a balance in the mind of the player whether the fun is worth tolerating the flaws. In any event yes experienced developers still make balance mistakes. But it just goes to show how hard it is, even for people who have done it before. |
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9/12/09 2:46:43 PM#58
I played darkfall in beta and I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd ever play darkfall
About a week ago I bought the game and it has improved a lot. it actually feels like a game, and it's very unique and entertaining. You can get really fucking pissed and very entertained, also, doing shit actually matters. My clan recently bought a city, we've had to defend it a lot of times from incomming surges of reds, but it's all good
the only thing I don't like about DF is the chat system. They should give us the ability to color code chats and to merge chat tabs. aswell as implement a right-click function on chat names
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9/12/09 3:05:19 PM#59
Happy to see things are looking up for DF. I've considered giving it ashot but I'm still hesitant. Maybe I'll give it until 2010? Everything should be up to par by then I'd hope LOL. "Mom, I play Tera for the gameplay I swear!!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-2paFdRw_U |
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9/13/09 2:44:29 PM#60
Not to interrupt the 4 pages of inevitable flame war that plague these forums... If I'm not mistaken, if someone was attacking you with their mount while dismounted, couldn't you just steal the mount? Or did they remove that feature? (haven't actually played df yet) |
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