Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by neoterrar

From what I heard, the original jedi thing was a complete chore to do.

Games like champions, SW:TOR etc. play to the fact that you are powerful and should feel that way.

Quite honestly the "grow" into it mentality doesn't really make any sense from a MMO perspective. You never really become better than your enemies in that sense (many mmos you can do basically the same thing at lvl 1 as level 100, just with more flourish)

I think quite a few people are stuck in the "old school" mentality. Games shouldn't be work or a chore, they should be fun. The sense of accomplishment you gain from doing something shouldn't just be from time put in/mobs killed.

 

You hit the nail right on the head. There is nothing special about killing hundreds of animals just to gain one more skill box or level. I also don't see what is so special about playing an alpha class. Just what is so fun by being more powerful than the rest of the server? I remember so many jedi players who thought they were the shit in PVP but couldn't hang once their "I win" buttons got taken away.

 I get much more satisfaction with finishing a mission by myslef or with a group of people. If people like slaughtering animals then I am sure that the game will have wild areas for them to go and grind.

 

normally I agree with you kt, however this time I have to add in something..

I agree that slaughtering 100 rats to skill up isn't fun at all, but going around and slaughtering people that have only a fraction of the power you have isn't fun either..  When I saw the video of the capt's quest I was "WTF?"..  The newbie Jedi going around with advanced force choke and lightening.. 2 or 3 hitting mobs left and right while barely taking any damage themself..   I fail to see the challenge and fun in going into a 10 v 1 fight and winning MOST of the time..  

I'd rather be killing a single target mutant rat that accidently pulls a 2nd add which causes me to either die or barely win, then to wipe a whole camp of Silt soilders with my eyes closed..  

Bioware.. YOU FAIL........

I know what you're saying. I saw that video and the first thing I noticed was the ease with which the player was able to go thru that level. Now that could be attributed to two things:
 

1.) The guy playing has done it so many times that it is second nature to him.

2.) The board was too easy.

I'm hoping it was the former.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Rydeson

 

normally I agree with you kt, however this time I have to add in something..

I agree that slaughtering 100 rats to skill up isn't fun at all, but going around and slaughtering people that have only a fraction of the power you have isn't fun either..  When I saw the video of the capt's quest I was "WTF?"..  The newbie Jedi going around with advanced force choke and lightening.. 2 or 3 hitting mobs left and right while barely taking any damage themself..   I fail to see the challenge and fun in going into a 10 v 1 fight and winning MOST of the time..  

I'd rather be killing a single target mutant rat that accidently pulls a 2nd add which causes me to either die or barely win, then to wipe a whole camp of Silt soilders with my eyes closed..  

Bioware.. YOU FAIL........

I know what you're saying. I saw that video and the first thing I noticed was the ease with which the player was able to go thru that level. Now that could be attributed to two things:
 

1.) The guy playing has done it so many times that it is second nature to him.

2.) The board was too easy.

I'm hoping it was the former.

3. The massive level difference between the player and mobs?

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Rydeson

 

normally I agree with you kt, however this time I have to add in something..

I agree that slaughtering 100 rats to skill up isn't fun at all, but going around and slaughtering people that have only a fraction of the power you have isn't fun either..  When I saw the video of the capt's quest I was "WTF?"..  The newbie Jedi going around with advanced force choke and lightening.. 2 or 3 hitting mobs left and right while barely taking any damage themself..   I fail to see the challenge and fun in going into a 10 v 1 fight and winning MOST of the time..  

I'd rather be killing a single target mutant rat that accidently pulls a 2nd add which causes me to either die or barely win, then to wipe a whole camp of Silt soilders with my eyes closed..  

Bioware.. YOU FAIL........

I know what you're saying. I saw that video and the first thing I noticed was the ease with which the player was able to go thru that level. Now that could be attributed to two things:
 

1.) The guy playing has done it so many times that it is second nature to him.

2.) The board was too easy.

I'm hoping it was the former.

3. The massive level difference between the player and mobs?

That falls under the board being too easy.

Originally posted by ktanner3

 

That falls under the board being too easy.

Don't be so sure. Nobody even knows how far into the game that little demonstration takes place. That whole ship quest could be a level 30 quest. But changed for the demonstration. I'm pretty certain this is the case. I can't imagine them throwing level 10's in quest line fighting level 1s.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by ktanner3

 

That falls under the board being too easy.

Don't be so sure. Nobody even knows how far into the game that little demonstration takes place. That whole ship quest could be a level 30 quest. But changed for the demonstration. I'm pretty certain this is the case. I can't imagine them throwing level 10's in quest line fighting level 1s.

I think this is kind of what people aren't understanding.  This isn't another run of the mill MMO.  This game has very strong character progression such as in the KOTOR games.  Starting out to be more powerful then other NPCs and mobs is of course going to happen, such as in the demo of the sith warrior when the dev clearly stated something to the effect of "Everyone knows you're here to run the place"  or something close to that.  Having more power then other NPCs doesn't make the character progression any worse, nor does it make the game too easy, theres no way to know that until you play the game, for all we know right now, is that it makes you worthy of having a story.

The whole point to the stories is to present you with choices that will affect how you go about the game.  Maybe you'll kill those 100 rats for rat tails but instead of turning them into the quest giver, have the option to sell them instead starting another quest chain,  we don't know yet.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by ktanner3

 

That falls under the board being too easy.

Don't be so sure. Nobody even knows how far into the game that little demonstration takes place. That whole ship quest could be a level 30 quest. But changed for the demonstration. I'm pretty certain this is the case. I can't imagine them throwing level 10's in quest line fighting level 1s.

 

I think this is kind of what people aren't understanding.  This isn't another run of the mill MMO.  This game has very strong character progression such as in the KOTOR games.  Starting out to be more powerful then other NPCs and mobs is of course going to happen, such as in the demo of the sith warrior when the dev clearly stated something to the effect of "Everyone knows you're here to run the place"  or something close to that.  Having more power then other NPCs doesn't make the character progression any worse, nor does it make the game too easy, theres no way to know that until you play the game, for all we know right now, is that it makes you worthy of having a story.

 

The whole point to the stories is to present you with choices that will affect how you go about the game.  Maybe you'll kill those 100 rats for rat tails but instead of turning them into the quest giver, have the option to sell them instead starting another quest chain,  we don't know yet.

I believe you will start out more powerful, but I highly doubt it will stay that way. I think this demonstration was set up to show you combat, not how harsh it can be. It did show the Bounty Hunter taking on 2-3 mobs on at once. The lowest I think I seen his health go was 390/490.  Seems easy right? But as you progress I can imagine those mobs will do far more then find cover and fire. And considering they find cover that actually gives an idea at how well done the AI is. If the AI is intelligent enough, they could easily box you in the middle while behind cover firing at you, this could cause any average gamer to spaz out. Not know which one to pick off first and eventually be gunned down because of not thinking quickly.

My point was what may seem easy now was probably rigged just for that demonstration. On my post one page behind I displayed the levels in the demonstration and the large gap between them and the players. If you missed that, the players were Sith Warrior level 10, Bounty Hunter level 11. Mobs being from 1-6, elites being 6-8. I also think the mobs health is probably going to be higher then in the demonstration. I think most of the mobs had 190, where the player had 790 and the elite Jedi Knight had 1200. Really none of this matters until everybody gets there hands on it to try it for themselves.

Originally posted by Varny

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-09-star-wars/55340

He says "you need to feel like a Star Wars hero from the beginning".

 

All I can thing was what ever happened to growing into the Hero? If everyone starts off the hero then noone feels special and whocares about your character? What I loved about SWG was gaining Jedi made me feel special so why do people want everything now when they just feel like part of the crowd?

What happened was next gen gamers not knowing what they want or wanting it all.  "We want to feel an accomplishment, but we don't want to have to work at it." or "We want our sense of accomplishment to be being able to pwn all and all ur b4ses r belong 2 us."  The age of information has come and gone and in it's place is the age of entitlement and with that comes the sense that everything should be catered to our vision of having to do as little as possible while being spoon fed whatever we want.  Life imitates art or vice versa and by "art", here, that is our gaming environments.  And some are going to flame and protest "Why shouldn't it, or you old school guys/gals can't get out of the past, blah blah.

There was a recent article about what is missing in MMOs and they hit it on the head around all of these environments being nothing more than glitzed up combat models and I couldn't agree more.  It's just a sad fact when you break down 99% of the MMOs out there.  That's why Space became obselete (Despite space being the most open ended imaginative playground of all) and the age of the no brain power FPS's became the new "Black".  Now don't get me wrong, the old medieval RPG environments were getting extremely old too and it was time for some fresh playgrounds but putting a new set of paint on an old combat model is by no means what I think anyone would consider "New school" either.

So do I think starting out as an all powerful Sith/Jedi is the way to go?  Not really.  I'm more with you in that I like to build up my character and it's definitely nothing I would consider "work", I consider it "fun" to be the new kid or farm boy or space trader turned power house, or Knight, or infamous galactic Pirate.  If I have to kill a few mice to get there, so be it although I do hope they would use their imaginations better than having us slaughter fodder for the purpose of grinding out a level and instead put our time to better use by doing something meaningful that progresses a story line and character buildup/investment.  Which is why I am excited about Aion, but TOR is certainly on my list so that I can experience all of the work they put into character build up with all the voice work that has been put into the game.  I am dissapointed in that it seems more like a standalone solo MMO than a real multiplayer environment but being that I haven't seen a finished product, I'll let the release do the talking.

Originally posted by dhayes68

 And more relevant to the conversation at hand, the point isn't that someone wants to become a mediocre swordsman, but, either start out as a poor swordsman and over time develop your character into a heroic swordsman, or even more importantly never be a combatant at all if they wish.  I can tell from your post you obviously wouldn't like that but other people do.

Its about char development, and having that development be as free as possible.

Why are you acting like there will be no character development in this game? 

There absolutely will be.  And that is why your entire argument fails.

I am also one of those people who would like to see character progression over time.  That doesn't mean you have to be a level 1 Sith Warrior who can only hunt Wamp Rats at the beginning of the game.  That would be ridiculous. 

Why can't you start at level 1 as a basic Sith Warrior with one ability and ultimately become an extremely powerful Sith Warrior who can do lightning, force chokes, etc?  How do you not consider that character progression?  In other words, yeah, at the beginning you start as a "Hero" who can fight level 1 Hutt gangsters and other minions but later you become a much more powerful "Hero" who can defeat level 30 Siths and Jedis.

But if you really want to play a game where you start out killing rats and snakes, there are only about a hundred other MMOs that offer that.  I am sure you will find one you like.  I actually appreciate an MMO that is trying to break the mold and be a little different.

Listen, if you don't like this game because it is not a sandbox or SWG2, that is totally fine.  Just say so.  It is your preference.  But why make up arguments that there is no character progression which is blatantly false?  It just makes you look desperate to find something to complain about.  At least be honest if you are going to critique the game.

Originally posted by Varny

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-09-star-wars/55340

He says "you need to feel like a Star Wars hero from the beginning".

 

All I can thing was what ever happened to growing into the Hero? If everyone starts off the hero then noone feels special and whocares about your character? What I loved about SWG was gaining Jedi made me feel special so why do people want everything now when they just feel like part of the crowd?

they dont mean your gonna be lvl 100000000 from the beginning numb nuts, it means even if your fighting lvl 1 limbless retards the combat and environment is going to make you feel like a hero or heroic. they dont want you to be like aww man im in the star wars universe and i gotta kill squirrels?!

its heroic progression.

Originally posted by mmaize

I consider it "fun" to be the new kid or farm boy or space trader turned power house, or Knight, or infamous galactic Pirate.  If I have to kill a few mice to get there, so be it although I do hope they would use their imaginations better than having us slaughter fodder for the purpose of grinding out a level and instead put our time to better use by doing something meaningful that progresses a story line and character buildup/investment.  Which is why I am excited about Aion, but TOR is certainly on my list so that I can experience all of the work they put into character build up with all the voice work that has been put into the game.  I am dissapointed in that it seems more like a standalone solo MMO than a real multiplayer environment but being that I haven't seen a finished product, I'll let the release do the talking.

I will be the first to say that there is nothing wrong with wanting a game like that.

But my question to you is why do you want every single MMO to be like that?  If your answer is that you do not want every MMO to be like that then why do you have a problem with the way this game decided to do it?

Is it just because it is "Star Wars" in particular?

Looks like a very well put together mmo. I'll likely steer clear because Stars Wars isn't my thing but I'm sure this will keep many fans happy for awhile.

Originally posted by KupoKupopo

Originally posted by mmaize

I consider it "fun" to be the new kid or farm boy or space trader turned power house, or Knight, or infamous galactic Pirate.  If I have to kill a few mice to get there, so be it although I do hope they would use their imaginations better than having us slaughter fodder for the purpose of grinding out a level and instead put our time to better use by doing something meaningful that progresses a story line and character buildup/investment.  Which is why I am excited about Aion, but TOR is certainly on my list so that I can experience all of the work they put into character build up with all the voice work that has been put into the game.  I am dissapointed in that it seems more like a standalone solo MMO than a real multiplayer environment but being that I haven't seen a finished product, I'll let the release do the talking.

 

I will be the first to say that there is nothing wrong with wanting a game like that.

But my question to you is why do you want every single MMO to be like that?  If your answer is that you do not want every MMO to be like that then why do you have a problem with the way this game decided to do it?

Is it just because it is "Star Wars" in particular?

I don't believe I said I wanted every single game to be that way, what I am saying is the idea that we're just supposed to be handed something is seriously short sighted.  To jump in with all the tools you need to solve the problem without having to do anything for them leads to an extremely short lived entertainment interest.  Short lived = failure. 

Does Star wars have anything to do with that?  Sure since my expectations are much like the creator told the story which is that Jedis and Sith alike do not start out as all powerful beings, in fact, i takes a tremendous amount of training in various skills and for the Jedi some serious emotional training as well.

Originally posted by mmaize

 

I don't believe I said I wanted every single game to be that way, what I am saying is the idea that we're just supposed to be handed something is seriously short sighted.  To jump in with all the tools you need to solve the problem without having to do anything for them leads to an extremely short lived entertainment interest.  Short lived = failure. 

Does Star wars have anything to do with that?  Sure since my expectations are much like the creator told the story which is that Jedis and Sith alike do not start out as all powerful beings, in fact, i takes a tremendous amount of training in various skills and for the Jedi some serious emotional training as well.

Yeah, that's great.  Except that nobody in SWTOR is going to "start out as all powerful beings" or have "all the tools you need to solve a problem" or "just be handed something" besides a class title and enough power to fight basic humans instead of bats and snakes.

So I don't even know what your point is.

'Yeah, that's great. Except that nobody in SWTOR is going to "start out as all powerful beings" or have "all the tools you need to solve a problem" or "just be handed something" besides a class title and enough power to fight basic humans instead of bats and snakes.

So I don't even know what your point is.'

 Exactly. Do any of you start playing a game with the expectations of being some poor shlub in some run down bar in some run down town? No, you look forward to making a name for yourself that others will remember. That's what they're talking about. 

Originally posted by KupoKupopo

Originally posted by mmaize

 

I don't believe I said I wanted every single game to be that way, what I am saying is the idea that we're just supposed to be handed something is seriously short sighted.  To jump in with all the tools you need to solve the problem without having to do anything for them leads to an extremely short lived entertainment interest.  Short lived = failure. 

Does Star wars have anything to do with that?  Sure since my expectations are much like the creator told the story which is that Jedis and Sith alike do not start out as all powerful beings, in fact, i takes a tremendous amount of training in various skills and for the Jedi some serious emotional training as well.

 

Yeah, that's great.  Except that nobody in SWTOR is going to "start out as all powerful beings" or have "all the tools you need to solve a problem" or "just be handed something" besides a class title and enough power to fight basic humans instead of bats and snakes.

So I don't even know what your point is.

Well if you read the OPs and my original reply, you would understand what the point is.  But I'll state it again so you don't have to work for it ;).  The OPs point is that they saw some footage or read something about characters starting out as already powerful with the Jedi and or Sith and or Bounty Hunter titles and many of the perks that come along with that.  Whether that's the truth or not is irrelevent as the overall POINT is character development and how important it is for people to get a sense of accomplishment and feel invested in the characters they create.  The reason this POINT applies is because if in fact TOR is creating these sorts of characters from the beginning it would take away from the idea that many people have of starting out as an 'everyman' and evolve through training, choices, trials, etc into the "Jedi" or "Sith" etc as we know them today.  It answers for many players the question of how a Jedi becomes a Jedi or a bounty hunter, a bounty hunter.

Hope that clears it up.

Originally posted by mmaize

Originally posted by KupoKupopo

Originally posted by mmaize

 

I don't believe I said I wanted every single game to be that way, what I am saying is the idea that we're just supposed to be handed something is seriously short sighted.  To jump in with all the tools you need to solve the problem without having to do anything for them leads to an extremely short lived entertainment interest.  Short lived = failure. 

Does Star wars have anything to do with that?  Sure since my expectations are much like the creator told the story which is that Jedis and Sith alike do not start out as all powerful beings, in fact, i takes a tremendous amount of training in various skills and for the Jedi some serious emotional training as well.

 

Yeah, that's great.  Except that nobody in SWTOR is going to "start out as all powerful beings" or have "all the tools you need to solve a problem" or "just be handed something" besides a class title and enough power to fight basic humans instead of bats and snakes.

So I don't even know what your point is.

 

Well if you read the OPs and my original reply, you would understand what the point is.  But I'll state it again so you don't have to work for it ;).  The OPs point is that they saw some footage or read something about characters starting out as already powerful with the Jedi and or Sith and or Bounty Hunter titles and many of the perks that come along with that.  Whether that's the truth or not is irrelevent as the overall POINT is character development and how important it is for people to get a sense of accomplishment and feel invested in the characters they create.  The reason this POINT applies is because if in fact TOR is creating these sorts of characters from the beginning it would take away from the idea that many people have of starting out as an 'everyman' and evolve through training, choices, trials, etc into the "Jedi" or "Sith" etc as we know them today.  It answers for many players the question of how a Jedi becomes a Jedi or a bounty hunter, a bounty hunter.

Hope that clears it up.

Oh, I see.  You want this game to be SWG2.  Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me (actually, I already knew that was why you were complaining).

I'm happy to see Bioware doing something new.  And fortunately, being the exact opposite of SWG, which failed miserably as a game.

Well since this isn't a sandbox, I'm sure you'll be moving on to another game to follow.  Just in case you didn't read my earlier posts, I'll say it again.  There are only about a hundred other MMOs out there that allow you to start out killing bats and snakes.  Have fun with that while I play a game that is trying to do something different.

But please, stop acting like this game will not have character growth or development just because you start out being called a "Sith Warrior" or a "Bounty Hunter" at the beginning of the game.  We both know there will be a huge difference between a level 1 Sith Warrior and a level 30 Sith Warrior.  And when you try to act like that is not the case just because the Dev in the video is explaining why you are not killing snakes at level 1, it just makes you sound like you are crying that this game is not SWG2.

Originally posted by mmaize

Originally posted by KupoKupopo

Originally posted by mmaize

 

I don't believe I said I wanted every single game to be that way, what I am saying is the idea that we're just supposed to be handed something is seriously short sighted.  To jump in with all the tools you need to solve the problem without having to do anything for them leads to an extremely short lived entertainment interest.  Short lived = failure. 

Does Star wars have anything to do with that?  Sure since my expectations are much like the creator told the story which is that Jedis and Sith alike do not start out as all powerful beings, in fact, i takes a tremendous amount of training in various skills and for the Jedi some serious emotional training as well.

 

Yeah, that's great.  Except that nobody in SWTOR is going to "start out as all powerful beings" or have "all the tools you need to solve a problem" or "just be handed something" besides a class title and enough power to fight basic humans instead of bats and snakes.

So I don't even know what your point is.

 

Well if you read the OPs and my original reply, you would understand what the point is.  But I'll state it again so you don't have to work for it ;).  The OPs point is that they saw some footage or read something about characters starting out as already powerful with the Jedi and or Sith and or Bounty Hunter titles and many of the perks that come along with that.  Whether that's the truth or not is irrelevent as the overall POINT is character development and how important it is for people to get a sense of accomplishment and feel invested in the characters they create.  The reason this POINT applies is because if in fact TOR is creating these sorts of characters from the beginning it would take away from the idea that many people have of starting out as an 'everyman' and evolve through training, choices, trials, etc into the "Jedi" or "Sith" etc as we know them today.  It answers for many players the question of how a Jedi becomes a Jedi or a bounty hunter, a bounty hunter.

Hope that clears it up.

Just because you're choosing a class doesn't necessarily change what you will end up being. Character progression in this game is told by the storyline (if you've read any of my other posts I probably sound like a broken record).  That means you can be an inherently good bounty hunter... or a bad jedi, with all issues that may come with that.   That doesn't mean that you'll start out as an all powerful sith warrior either.  You progress the same way you would in any other game (well.. slightly different due to the way the game will end up being).  You don't start as an all powerful anything.  Thats like saying the children in the jedi temple were all powerful because they were in jedi training.  There will still be a progression, and the story will drive that progression and will dictate how you become what you are in the end be it good or bad.. or neither.

Not all IPs will make for a good MMORPG. With the power issues of Jedi and Sith, I think Star Wars is one which can't make a good MMO.

How many people played Matrix online and didn't want to be Neo?

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Not all IPs will make for a good MMORPG. With the power issues of Jedi and Sith, I think Star Wars is one which can't make a good MMO.

How many people played Matrix online and didn't want to be Neo?

Please explain what you mean by power issues of jedi and sith?  How would that not make a good MMO?  A ton of people played the matrix online and didn't want to be neo.. .a lot of people played for the different factions....

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Not all IPs will make for a good MMORPG. With the power issues of Jedi and Sith, I think Star Wars is one which can't make a good MMO.

How many people played Matrix online and didn't want to be Neo?

I guess we will have to wait and see.  I am confident that Jedi and Sith will be the equivalent of "Warrior" or "Tank" in  other games and not be overpowered.

We already know that nobody is going to get killed by a single lightsaber strike or blaster shot (just like nobody gets killed in other games by a single sword strike or arrow shot) so it will just come down to the numbers being balanced out which is no different than any other MMO.

And for those of you who have an issue with Jedis and Siths being balanced instead of overpowered in this game... remember in Episode 2 when Jango Fett kicked Obi-Wan's rear end?  "Lore" has already shown that a Bounty Hunter can defeat a Jedi Knight in battle.  And yes, Mace Windu defeats Jango Fett later.  So it just goes to show who is playing the jedi is what determines the outcome and it is not "Jedi = all-powerful-instant-win" that so many are trying to act like this game will be.

Oh, and for the record, I want to be a smuggler.  So there goes that theory about everyone wanting to be Jedi or Sith.