I stand corrected you can have levels in a sandbox game and not detract from it's sandbox qualities, but you most certainly can't have classes, they restrict your ability to develop your avatar the way you want to. 

Sandbox games are generally highly dependent on a crafting system to provide everything in the game, Aion's crafting is an afterthought at best.

Even associating the word sandbox with Aion is absurd, but this is a forum and I guess even wacky ideas have to be discussed.

I understand what the author is saying, I don't know if it is correct, because I haven't played Aion.

But what I think he means is that you have more freedom to explore and quest or grind than in other mmo's.

I can give a similar example :

DAoC is not a sandbox, but the RvR in DAoC is more sandboxy than the RvR Campaign in WAR.

In DAoC you had the choice to attack / claim any keep, or pass them all up and go straight for the Relic keep and take the Relic. Or only take enough keeps to open up Darkness Falls. If you took the Relic and placed it into your own relic keep it would stay there until an enemy realm took it back. This could be hours, weeks, months or even years.

Point is, the choice was yours, the world was open ( not instanced ) and there was no magical timer to reset the relic back to another realm.

Now in WAR everything is alot more on rails. You have to take a certain amount of keeps, you need your part of PVE or Instanced PVP, you need 2 of 3 forts ( which are capped in numbers for the defenders ), then you have to win a couple of instances, and then you can get into the city. If you conquer the city, you will automatically get booted after a while.

The whole campaign is on rails, there is little choice and alot of instancing, the RvR areas are small too, so small gangs always run into zergs.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that DAoC felt more "sandboxy" than WAR because you had more freedom to chose your path.

And perhaps this can be said as well about Aion vs WoW ...

I have to disagree with the definition of 'sandbox' as it is used here in this article. The whole idea of leveling in Aion requires one to reach a certain experience level and move on... whether it involves the campaign or side quests. This, to me, is not the definition of a sandbox. Unlike EvE Online, where one can stay in the High Security Areas for as long as one wishes and still accomplish something; in Aion, one has absolutely no reason to stay in the lower level areas after they have done all the quests and reached the max level for that area. In Aion, one's whole purpose is to level up by going through the various level defined zones. One has no choice but to move on to the next area and forced to play the grind game, which to me is not the definition of a sandbox. In something similar to EvE Online's design, one is not required to go anywhere unless one desires to do so.

So, my opinion is that Aion is not a mix between the grind and the sandbox design, but purely a grind game to get to the end game... whether in PvE or PvP.  Aion is not a sandbox game at all, because it does not support doing something based on the results... only gaining experience to move on. Aion does not have the depth in its design to make it a sandbox game... again, in my opinion.

...and yes, I have played several of Aion Beta weekends, so I have experience with the game.

I think Aion is a PvPvE themepark game not much sandbox at all. 

Now FFXIV has a nice blend of character advancement from a sandbox with the world of a themepark.  Also Heroes of Telara looks to be trying to blend Sandbox and Themepark from a PvE perspective. 

One key way to tell the difference between a sandbox and themepark is looking at how they expand.  Sandboxes often expand by expanding their features, systems, and core game while themeparks expand with content tacked onto the end of their game.

Aion does expand a tiny amount in systems, features, and core game, but most of it is content. 

Originally posted by Bureyku

I think Aion is a PvPvE themepark game not much sandbox at all. 

Now FFXIV has a nice blend of character advancement from a sandbox with the world of a themepark.  Also Heroes of Telara looks to be trying to blend Sandbox and Themepark from a PvE perspective. 

One key way to tell the difference between a sandbox and themepark is looking at how they expand.  Sandboxes often expand by expanding their features, systems, and core game while themeparks expand with content tacked onto the end of their game.

Aion does expand a tiny amount in systems, features, and core game, but most of it is content. 

I find it funny that this person is already making claims about FFIV and there are only a handful of vids of the game at all so far lol....

Anyway, Aion leveling up is definately theme park based. But the end-game is RvR focused, which is far from a theme park and more along the lines of a Sandbox.

I thought this article was going to be about Themepark leveling up and Sandbox end-game... would have made more sense that way.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

I stand corrected you can have levels in a sandbox game and not detract from it's sandbox qualities, but you most certainly can't have classes, they restrict your ability to develop your avatar the way you want to. 

Sandbox games are generally highly dependent on a crafting system to provide everything in the game, Aion's crafting is an afterthought at best.

These comments are not neccessarily true.

For the first comment - Eve's ships are more along the line of classes - they justify your general movement speed, your amount of firepower, the "weight" of your weapons, the possible special mods you could have such as cloaking, and were specifically focused towards a certain "job", yet do not detract from the sandbox qualities as they are highly customizable.

Second comment - crafting is not necessary in a sandbox game. Asherons Call is one of the best sandbox MMO's that have been released and the majority of items were not crafted. Although a few years in they did add an awesome system that let you tinker your gear pieces and weapons, which fit in with the sandbox gameplay perfectly.

I read and wached a lot about Aion, but this article is the first time that the thought "Aion" and "Sandbox" were somehow brought in connection in my brain. Aion got nothing of a sandbox game. I mean writing articles is great, but writing an article saying how much Aion got of a sandbox game and how great Aion is... what is that article good for? Fodder for fanboys and advertisment for the game, but nothing else.

What sandbox? the game isn't even explorer friendly. From all the info i've gathered the game world is about 20% the size WAR.

The article seems to be written with the assumption that sandbox is synonymous with open-ended. I think that's a bit too narrow a definition to be a good basis for an article, but that's just my opinion. However you choose to look at it, the game is mostly linear. More so than many competing themepark MMOs, and the sandbox elements are few and far between. If it gives enough illusion of freedom to keep the target audience happy, they got the balance right, though. AoC is a good example of a game that was too linear even for the themepark crowd at launch. WoW got the balance about right, even if it is very far from being a sandbox game. Aion may do the same.

Originally posted by Zyonne

The article seems to be written with the assumption that sandbox is synonymous with open-ended. I think that's a bit too narrow a definition to be a good basis for an article, but that's just my opinion. However you choose to look at it, the game is mostly linear. More so than many competing themepark MMOs, and the sandbox elements are few and far between. If it gives enough illusion of freedom to keep the target audience happy, they got the balance right, though. AoC is a good example of a game that was too linear even for the themepark crowd at launch. WoW got the balance about right, even if it is very far from being a sandbox game. Aion may do the same.

Linear was not the issue of AoC, and not being linear was not the strength of WoW.

AoC lacked polish, and lacked decent content.

At release, if AoC had polish, a decent end-game, a decent progression of gear, and something to actually do at end-game, people would have played.

Linear isnt necessarily a weakness in the MMO game, as long as there is good progression, and a "carrot on a stick" in front of you. In games like AoC, it's very hard to push yourself to keep playing, if there is nothing to look forward to at the end of the tunnel. That's how theme park games survive - most people dont enjoy the leveling in theme parks and typically cant wait until its over, but they have an end-game to look forward to.

Just think of when you play a rerolled char in a theme park MMO and cant wait to get those last few levels over with...

As long as Aions endgame works properly, and is fun, people will put up with the linear progression, just like they do in every other theme park MMO.

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

 

For the first comment - Eve's ships are more along the line of classes - they justify your general movement speed, your amount of firepower, the "weight" of your weapons, the possible special mods you could have such as cloaking, and were specifically focused towards a certain "job", yet do not detract from the sandbox qualities as they are highly customizable.

In EVE, your ship is not your character and you are not locked into one type or class of ship. A ship is as much a type of character class as a pickaxe or leather armor.

Second comment - crafting is not necessary in a sandbox game. Asherons Call is one of the best sandbox MMO's that have been released and the majority of items were not crafted. Although a few years in they did add an awesome system that let you tinker your gear pieces and weapons, which fit in with the sandbox gameplay perfectly.

Never thought of AC as a sandbox before. I'm not saying you're wrong, rather that is a view of the game I had not previously considered. Interesting!

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Linear was not the issue of AoC, and not being linear was not the strength of WoW

I used those two games as examples because they are both extremely linear themepark games similar to Aion. Noone in their right mind would call either a sandbox game, but like all other MMOs they do have some sandbox elements (optional content, multiple paths to the same goal, etc) to take away from the tedium of levelling.

In AoC, levelling to 80 would be the exact same experience every time except for your class being different. Even those who wanted, and expected to play an extremely linear game were not happy with the levelling process in AoC. Because of the plethora of other problems the game had at launch, this might not be the one problem most people remember, though.

In WoW you have some choice at most levels, and you can work on tradeskills at any level. Levelling an alt or two to see content you missed out on the first time around is entirely possible, and WoW players seem generally happy with the amount of freedom the game gives them. They don't want more choices.

Based on that WoW got the "balance between linear and sandbox" right, while AoC did not. Aion may be more like WoW in that regard, but it doesn't even have a fraction of the sandbox elements it would take to please those that are vocal about the lack of sandbox games on the forums. 

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Originally posted by Zyonne
I used those two games as examples because they are both extremely linear themepark games similar to Aion. Noone in their right mind would call either a sandbox game, but like all other MMOs they do have some sandbox elements (optional content, multiple paths to the same goal, etc) to take away from the tedium of levelling.
In AoC, levelling to 80 would be the exact same experience every time except for your class being different. Even those who wanted, and expected to play an extremely linear game were not happy with the levelling process in AoC. Because of the plethora of other problems the game had at launch, this might not be the one problem most people remember, though.
In WoW you have some choice at most levels, and you can work on tradeskills at any level. Levelling an alt or two to see content you missed out on the first time around is entirely possible, and WoW players seem generally happy with the amount of freedom the game gives them. They don't want more choices.
Based on that WoW got the "balance between linear and sandbox" right, while AoC did not. Aion may be more like WoW in that regard, but it doesn't even have a fraction of the sandbox elements it would take to please those that are vocal about the lack of sandbox games on the forums. 

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'Sandbox element' is meaningless term, a nonsense.

To make a game sandbox, you don't need any specific features or content, it is how those two interact between each other, towards players and vice versa.

EVE's complex crafting is no more 'sandboxy' if you do not include death penalty, POS wars, research, mission running, plexing, etc.
It is how crafting works within wider frame. You remove the frame, you remove the idea.

Originally posted by Lathander81

Originally posted by Fkinglinux

Regardless of our definition of sandbox, I think we all agree AION isn't a sandbox, the reviewer is either well paid or retarded.

If you actually read the article, he is saying that Aion has sandbox elements. Not that it is sandbox.  I acutally like a more linear game anyway. It really makes you feel like your toon is connected to the game. Were as in WOW its all about haow many alts you have have because you can't raid tonight :P

And many of us are saying that the "sandbox elements" he mentions do not qualify as "sandbox."

1) He thinks that the quests given from npc's that are optional = sandbox-like because something is happening in the game world other than the campaign quests.... ummm... the whole notion of a quest-giving npc is THEMEPARK and linear, whether the quest is optional or not...  To add insult to injury, one of the lesser points of an otherwise great games is its cookie cutter "kill 10 XYZ's" quest formula... which hearkens back to the THEMEPARK as well.

2) The article crows that exploring Aion's zones give it a very "sandbox" feel.  I don't know what game the author is playing, but the zones are *hardly* open to me and I sure don't have an aching desire to explore considering how the zones are constructed.  I agree with another poster that the zones are very functional, in that you walk along a path and that going left might take you to some npc's while going right might take you to where you kill mobs for those npc's (frequently the mobs and npc's are in the same place).  I guess it's just that the zones are beautiful, they feel somewhat large, but they are not something to point to as far as something that makes you thirst to explore.

With choke points, hills/trees/bolders, clever use of angles... the zones are actually somewhat claustrophobic.  Even in the "largest/most open" areas, I feel like I'm in the center of a gym.  Sure, there is a lot of open space around me, but I still perceive the walls along the perimeter.  I think they did an okay job giving you a sense of space in Aion, but anybody who feels like the zones are very open and invite exploration is smoking some good shit.

-----------------

I'm sorry if what I've said seems negative.  Believe it or not, I really enjoy Aion and will gladly devote myself to it.  I find the world immersive, enjoy the music, and think my legionmates are good sorts and that I will have a great time adventuring with them.  However, I don't delude myself into thinking some of the core components of its linearity (standard quest format+a fairly preplanned zone design) are "sandbox elements."

As others rightly point out, the PvP will likely provide some true sandbox elements... but, c'mon.  The article seems like "ad copy" to me... especially given the cheesy screenshots (which have what bearing on the writing again?).  It feels like a hack job, as if the author was paid off to spin the game as something its not ("hey everybody! check out this game with a good balance of themepark/sandbox!).  Or, maybe he's just a fanboi.  I don't know.  I still find the claims/examples outrageous.

It's a good game with great polish as far as art direction and music goes though.  The gameplay is tight, grouping is enjoyable, and the world draws you in.  Notice, nowhere in that description have I mentioned that it has sandbox elements.  The PvP will likely prove dynamic (i.e., "sandbox-like"), but anybody who feels Aion has a "good balance" between Themepark and Sandbox either doesn't comprehend what those words really mean, is a fool, or has other motives for portraying the game as something it's not.

Originally posted by Gdemami

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Originally posted by Zyonne
I used those two games as examples because they are both extremely linear themepark games similar to Aion. Noone in their right mind would call either a sandbox game, but like all other MMOs they do have some sandbox elements (optional content, multiple paths to the same goal, etc) to take away from the tedium of levelling.
In AoC, levelling to 80 would be the exact same experience every time except for your class being different. Even those who wanted, and expected to play an extremely linear game were not happy with the levelling process in AoC. Because of the plethora of other problems the game had at launch, this might not be the one problem most people remember, though.
In WoW you have some choice at most levels, and you can work on tradeskills at any level. Levelling an alt or two to see content you missed out on the first time around is entirely possible, and WoW players seem generally happy with the amount of freedom the game gives them. They don't want more choices.
Based on that WoW got the "balance between linear and sandbox" right, while AoC did not. Aion may be more like WoW in that regard, but it doesn't even have a fraction of the sandbox elements it would take to please those that are vocal about the lack of sandbox games on the forums. 

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'Sandbox element' is meaningless term, a nonsense.

To make a game sandbox, you don't need any specific features or content, it is how those two interact between each other, towards players and vice versa.

EVE's complex crafting is no more 'sandboxy' if you do not include death penalty, POS wars, research, mission running, plexing, etc.
It is how crafting works within wider frame. You remove the frame, you remove the idea.
 

I kind of agree, but it's just semantics. As I said in a previous post, I think the article just discusses open-ended versus linear game design and what is done in Aion to make the game feel less linear. Introducing the sandbox term to this discussion just leads to misunderstandings.
 

That said, there are certain design concepts that are common for most sandbox games, and certain that are common for most themepark games. When something adds to the sense of player freedom in a themepark game, I don't think it's wrong to refer to it as a "sandbox element". Similarly, I don't think it's wrong to describe the introduction of clear goals and guidance to reach those goals in a Sandbox game as a "themepark element". It might not change the overall feel of a game much, but might be enough for a player who prefers sandbox games to enjoy a themepark game, or give a player who prefers themepark games enough guidance to stick with a sandbox game.

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Originally posted by Zyonne
I kind of agree, but it's just semantics. As I said in a previous post, I think the article just discusses open-ended versus linear game design and what is done in Aion to make the game feel less linear. Introducing the sandbox term to this discussion just leads to misunderstandings.
 
That said, there are certain design concepts that are common for most sandbox games, and certain that are common for most themepark games. When something adds to the sense of player freedom in a themepark game, I don't think it's wrong to refer to it as a "sandbox element". Similarly, I don't think it's wrong to describe the introduction of clear goals and guidance to reach those goals in a Sandbox game as a "themepark element". It might not change the overall feel of a game much, but might be enough for a player who prefers sandbox games to enjoy a themepark game, or give a player who prefers themepark games enough guidance to stick with a sandbox game.
 

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I should not have quoted you since it was not really aimed at you directly.
My apologies.

I wouldn't say it is just semantics when you do not use proper terms for description.
Not only it is misleading but it looks ridiculous and unproffesional especialy comming from gaming website staff.

The big thing that killed my enthuiasm for Aion was when I was running quests in the 15's or so.  The landscape was pretty, but in many ways it may have as well have been a canyon.  The pathing was painfully painfully obvious.

Plus after a while, the lack of flight areas really bugged me, espically in the first zone.  You can fly here, now you can't.  Just felt weird.  Plus it doesn't help that practically any time you read about the game or listen to an interview they are always gushing about flight like it is a brand new innovation.  Flight this and flight that, and don't forget flight!  Really?  Because I can fly in Champions Online or City of Heroes.  All the time.  Anywhere.  As much as I want...

I know flight isn't quite on topic, but in many ways it does lend itself to this arguement.  If Aion was more of a sandbox game, then I think you could just fly wherever you wanted.  Maybe still have a flight timer, but there is no reason that you ca't fly in the woods off of the Asmodian city, other than they want you to have to fight through enemies instead of traveling to point A fast.  You can fly in some spots, but only where allowed.  In all the other areas you do not even have an option.   In my opinion, flight in Aion is a more linear feature.

Maybe it opens up more in later areas.  I would hope that you can fly all over the Abyss for example.

If you want a TRUE sandbox MMO, I point you at Wurm Online. Go play that for a month and then come back and tell me you really want a sandbox. In Wurm you can literally change the landscape. Want to dig a hole through a mountain? You can. Want to build a city, go for it! I found it fascinating...and yet tedious hehe.

Originally posted by barezz

The big thing that killed my enthuiasm for Aion was when I was running quests in the 15's or so.  The landscape was pretty, but in many ways it may have as well have been a canyon.  The pathing was painfully painfully obvious.

Plus after a while, the lack of flight areas really bugged me, espically in the first zone.  You can fly here, now you can't.  Just felt weird.  Plus it doesn't help that practically any time you read about the game or listen to an interview they are always gushing about flight like it is a brand new innovation.  Flight this and flight that, and don't forget flight!  Really?  Because I can fly in Champions Online or City of Heroes.  All the time.  Anywhere.  As much as I want...

I know flight isn't quite on topic, but in many ways it does lend itself to this arguement.  If Aion was more of a sandbox game, then I think you could just fly wherever you wanted.  Maybe still have a flight timer, but there is no reason that you ca't fly in the woods off of the Asmodian city, other than they want you to have to fight through enemies instead of traveling to point A fast.  You can fly in some spots, but only where allowed.  In all the other areas you do not even have an option.   In my opinion, flight in Aion is a more linear feature.

Maybe it opens up more in later areas.  I would hope that you can fly all over the Abyss for example.

From what I hear, the Abyss you can fly nearly everywhere, and you have much longer flight time while you are there as well. The only places you can NOT fly, are when you are directly approaching a fortress during a siege. I hear they have some choke points strategically placed around fortresses to encourage some tactical battles for the forts - which is why you cant fly when you are directly sieging. But 99% of the abyss is supposed to be flight-enabled, and encouraged.

I definately understand the dissapointment with linear leveling though, but these days I do not expect anything else from a game that is not designed as a full sandbox - over 90% of MMO's are linear leveling these days - not just the asian themed ones (like some people in this thread are suggesting).

i agree with Oz   "Where do you get these wing ding ideas?"  dang Oz ??? You did not have to slap  MR  So & So...  with your own passion filled opinions and aspects on "Aion" i think you enjoyed to give a bloody lashing to the people that can not see the difference between a sandbox game and a more ethereal  as AION is in my opinion AION has surpassed  every game out there to this day im a BLIZZARD fan but i will not be going to DIABLO lll or SC 2 .!.

and i cant say there ever will be a better game than DAoC.!

"OZ"

Aion is a well done theme park. Let's leave it at that.
 

I agree Oz... BUT, all in all we do know, there is always going to be a few bugs!