Originally posted by Neanderthal 

 

As for wasted time <shrug> all the time we spend in these games is wasted.

I disagree, anything that takes me out of a stressful life and provides some entertainment is not wasted, is in fact healthy to a point.  think of it as therapy.  For me coming home stressed and perhaps angry and then killing video monster or bad guys is therapy - I get out my frustration, do not go to jail for hurting real people,  and do not have to pay thousands of dollars to a therapist.  Just sit at my computer and kill the bad guys...  that's how I look at it anyways, so it is not time wasted it is time spent reducing stress - maybe more people should play video games, eh?

While I do feel a lot of MMORPG's are losing their luster, I think it's mainly because it's more of a "been there, done that" kind of thing.  Sure you get new things like open public questing and new trends capture the imagination, it really is only a variation of the basic grind.

Instancing is not the problem either.  It was a solution to the insane camp grinds and "TRAIN TO ZONE!!" issues that EQ1 had.  And yes I played in many a zone where that happened.  Karnors was notoriously bad.  But add that it may have agroed a lot, most people were either removed from the train by being offset from it or in a different area altogether. 

Add that Boss level mobs, non instanced created huge bottlenecks where you either had to get guild leaders from the server together to get raids "scheduled" or it was just a massive zergfest to get to Nagafen and Vox, and the group that raided the earliest won.  That's bad design.

Thus instanced raids became vogue in WoW, and it really is/was a better way to raid.  Add that raids became toned down to the extent that they weren't 8 hour grindfests to get to a boss.  And yes, I played a monk, and I pulled Plane of Hate, and Plane of Fear before Kunark came out too.  Those, while fun in the beginning, became mind numbing, especially for the pullers (read monks as they were the only ones equipped to do it back then).

Also add that a big fault of EQ was that after a certain point in the game, unless you were certain classes, you just couldn't solo.  Which meant that you had to just hang out for a while, while LFG, that could mean you logged on for 2 hours and spent that time LFG and didn't do anything.  That's also bad design.  Granted, for the most part, when you did get a group, it typically wasn't bad, because even pugging back then, most players were competent, not like WoW is today where you really don't know what you're gonna get.

Personally, at least IMO, the thing that killed EQ more than anything else was AA's (alternate advance levels for those that never played.  meaning you could get side XP instead of normal xp for additional bonuses).  The reason I say this is because it got to the point that it wasn't unusual for someone to have 500+AA's.  And even at max level, and max AA xps, it was still about 3 AA's per normal leveling XP, thus you had to re-grind all your levels back another 4x.   Moste decent guilds required this.  Thus it got to the point that it wasn't worth it for new players to even try as it would literally take at least a year for this to happen.  Obvious bad design.

But I think in terms of OP's title, what is hurting the new MMO's coming on the market is that they are incomplete.  They are releasing games that should realistically have stayed in beta for another 3 or 4 months.  That in and of itself causes disallusionment from MMO's.  Just look at Warhammer, AoC, and the just released Champions.  Things that needed to be done, should be done.  The classic example is AoC where they said Directx10 ready on the box, and it wasn't in the game at launch.

"Where once I would face a single mob or maybe 2 now I can face up to 8 or more - will I survive? Should I run away or stand and fight. It is an adrenaline rush, and to me that is fun."

Oh I want difficult games.  But nothing about unnecessary brutal punishment makes a game more difficult.  It just makes a game less fun.

In most other genres you start a level over or continue from a saved checkpoint.  Obviously for non-instanced content in an MMO this can't be duplicated 100% (although for instanced content, reseting players to the start when the entire group wipes is fair.)

"The sheer craziness of it generated stories you told to your friends, which is saying something for a video game."

Similar to above, I want "sheer craziness" moments too.  I even want them to be the result of player randomness sometimes.  I just don't want to suffer at the hands of player stupidity.  That happens enough in normal grouping situations - game design doesn't need to contribute too.

Originally posted by Axehilt

"Where once I would face a single mob or maybe 2 now I can face up to 8 or more - will I survive? Should I run away or stand and fight. It is an adrenaline rush, and to me that is fun."

Oh I want difficult games.  But nothing about unnecessary brutal punishment makes a game more difficult.  It just makes a game less fun.

In most other genres you start a level over or continue from a saved checkpoint.  Obviously for non-instanced content in an MMO this can't be duplicated 100% (although for instanced content, reseting players to the start when the entire group wipes is fair.)

"The sheer craziness of it generated stories you told to your friends, which is saying something for a video game."

Similar to above, I want "sheer craziness" moments too.  I even want them to be the result of player randomness sometimes.  I just don't want to suffer at the hands of player stupidity.  That happens enough in normal grouping situations - game design doesn't need to contribute too.

I died in MMO's many times because of grouping with players who either didn't know what they were doing or were in it only for themselves and left the minute they had what they wanted, leaving behind a group without a healer or a tank or whatever.  I then played solo mostly till I got annoyed with the people who told me that I was ruining their game by soloing and not joining their group.  More I think on it the more I realize that I like single player games better.  Only person who complains when I play them is my GF.

Please refine your complaint to private instances, public instances is the way to go. Ever play FFXI? Somewhere around level 30 theres like only one place to go (grind mandragoras), well suck for you if its primetime and every good camp spot is taken. You can go ahead and be rude and camp on top of someone, but most sit idly by and camp check. You cant PVP you out a spot, you just wait. This is just poor gameplay design and where instancing can come in handy.

Originally posted by elderotter

I died in MMO's many times because of grouping with players who either didn't know what they were doing or were in it only for themselves and left the minute they had what they wanted, leaving behind a group without a healer or a tank or whatever.  I then played solo mostly till I got annoyed with the people who told me that I was ruining their game by soloing and not joining their group.  More I think on it the more I realize that I like single player games better.  Only person who complains when I play them is my GF.

Well the difference between open world meatheads and the ones in your party is that you have control over whose party you join (or who you invite.)

So much control, in fact, that you can choose to do exactly what you did: solo. :P

They are definitely losing there luster to me. Different graphics, races, abilities and even different stories isn't enough to reinvigorate my interest either.