No, I'm not going to make comparisons to real life. I don't have to.

For something to be "hardcore" it has to go above and beyond what is considered the standard within a particular human activity. Hardcore martial artists will try to perform greater feats of strength and skill than their peers. Hardcore motor heads will try to build cars that are ridiculously overpowered, even in the realm of street racing. Hardcore motocross trials riders will constantly attempt to perform more outrageous and seemingly impossible stunts. And so on and so forth.

In the realm of videogames, "hardcore" is used to mean any game, or game related activity, that is unreasonably difficult or frustrating to the average gamer. Bullet hell shooters like Perfect Cherry Blossom or rRootage, as well as retro platform games like Mighty Jill Off and I Wanna Be The Guy could all be considered hardcore. In fact, these games all fall into a new catagory of games that are collectively refered to as masocore. RPGs are not, in general, "hardcore." There are exceptions however, in the subgenre known as roguelikes.

Roguelikes are something of a contradiction. On the one hand they have steep learning curves and death is permanent. That's permanent as in: you have to role an entirely new character and start all over. What's more, much of any good roguelike design is randomly generated making it impossible to know what to expect from one session to the next, let alone make a walkthrough. On the other hand, most roguelikes move at the players pace (they're mostly turn based), can be played in very short sessions, and can be completed in eight hours or less (provided you don't die and have to start over). In modern terms, these games would be considered casual if it wasn't for the learning curve and harsh death penalty.

My personal definition of a "hardcore" game is one that is difficult and requires player skill. You cannot simply grind your way through a "hardcore" game. A hardcore game demands something of the player besides time. In fact, a harcore game takes less time for a skillful or dedicated player than it does for an inept or lazy gamer. The emphasis is less on time and more on challenging the player. For an RPG, this means challenging a player's tactical and logistical abilities. Forcing the player to plan ahead but still think on his / her feet when something comes up that wasn't anticipated. Right now, no MMORPG fits that bill.

So can we please stop babbling on about how such and such MMORPG is not hardcore enough or too harcore? You can grind through every one of these games and that disqualifies them from the hardcore club.

i disagree.  In my personal opinion games are either hardcore, casual or moderate.  All 3 can have varied levels of skill and the hardcore one doesn't always mean more skill.  I would say time is the biggest factor to making a game hardcore as we have precious little of it (as opposed to skill) and it can be quite daunting to try and complete hardcore games due to the huge time commitments most have.

So yeah, you raise some good points but i don't think it should be based soley on Skill.

 I would have to say hardcore just means time sink in MMORPGs.... you can tell when playing an MMO which players have all the time in the world and which ones don't.

People complain about things not being hard enough or 'taking skill' but that is just a load of bs...

If you have two sets of mobs, one set being easy, and the other set pulling off extremely annoying spells or whatever making them more difficult to kill. Those difficult mobs will never be fought, everyone will flock to the easy mobs and avoid the others all together. I've seen this in many MMOs over the years... so people really don't want a challenge but they do like the sound of the word challenge. It makes them feel better than other people, or like they are in some special group of good players, or 'leet' or whatever you would like to call it.

I think I'd have to disagree with you as well.

You say you won't make RL comparisons and then do just that, so lets touch on that briefly. In all those instances, the person is putting more time and effort into their chosen field than the average person in that field does. I would argue that MMOs by their nature are "hardcore" compared to the average gamer, who may only play halo 3 and madden on the weekends where we play probably far more than them. (But this isn't about them so lets skip past that)

I would say that within any MMO there are certain "hardcore" people and average people. If you spend more than 20-30 hours a week playing your game, I would say you're a candidate for being "hardcore". Above that though, you have raiding guilds. Some spend upwards of 5 hours a night every night throughout the week doing their raiding. In many games, raiding isn't just about putting the time in either. You need to have people who know the fight mechanics as well as their class mechanics, and can work together in a team. You would be surprised how many average MMO players don't have the skills to avoid moving walls of lava or know not to stand in flashing circles that will kill you.

There is always endgame content or "hard modes" or new content that only a small percentage of the population will be able to complete within a game. That, if anything, is hardcore simply for the fact that they have the skill to do it when so few other people can. Often without knowing exactly what they're up against either.

I do agree with the spirit of your final message though. Far too many complain about this or that game being not "hardcore" enough when basically they are just saying "I'm so great, I'm better than that game and I need something harder which you probably couldn't do".

Well it's your definition, and I partially agree with it. You start doing a dungeon and it's very challenging. Then after a month with  better gear / level / skill (not player skill) it becomes trivial, no sense of accomplishing much really. But there is also some player skill improvement mixed in, and sometimes it can mean a lot so still think an MMO *can* be harcore.

In my experience, in MMO's 'hardcore' usually referrs to people acting like assholes.

"For something to be "hardcore" it has to go above and beyond what is considered the standard within a particular human activity."

I agree with the definition but disagree that only player skill fits within the definition. Anything extreme can be hardcore imo.

I think "A Tale in the Desert" and "Wurm Online" are "hardcore" crafting games, for example.

It's relative to the activity. I'd certainy describe a 15 hour Shadowbane siege as hardcore for a MMO. Hell even WoW could be hardcore back in the day. 8 Hours in a single  dungeon instance is certainly more  hardcore than I ever want to be.

Hardcore can be many ways of playing, but if you dedicate yourself to a game and play alot every day and know all ins and outs of that game its seems your hardcore, well thats how i see it.

It dont matter what kind of game it is as long your dedication to that game is extreme, in my book your hardcore,  sandbox or themepark you can be both hardcore.

Oh and hardcore your not when you macro/exploit visit sites for walkthroughs DBsites thats for casuals/carebears people who can't firgure it out for themselfs.

And many claim to be hardcore but macro/exploit and visit those sites lol what a joke they are:P

This topic is much better than I thought it was going to be. Good all the way around. The "people acting like assholes" reply made me laugh, and is a good point as well for the overall topic.

I don't think I can really disagree with anyone here. It's all subjective in a way, for this genre.

I think its just a fact of life that adolescents love to pigeon-hole and compartmentalise (look at the first post straight after the OP for a classic example).  Words and concepts like "hardcore" are pretty meaningless but if the kids do want to debate about meanings of meaningless words then there is no real harm I suppose.

Hardcore is a word nerds use to put down other nerds gaming preferences, nothing more.

Hardcore is a playstyle a person can have. So any game regardless what genre can be played hardcore.

For example to me I felt I was playing WOW hardcore, reason I challenged myself, didn't go to get purple's to have better gear but went into raids/dungeons/quests, with self crafting cloth armor as to me using and type of other armor made the game far to easy., but understand those who might go after the high end gear can also have a hardcore playstyle so please understand I am not saying that one lpaystyle is more hardcore then mine or the other way around but understand that what I am saying is what hardcore means to me and what I do to make it feel hardcore. Could I compete with those who whore high end gear..... of course I could not, but the game was so much more challenging for me and since I was and am not a pvp player in MMORPG's (like my pvp in other genre of games) I saw no real reason to have high end gear. But still hold ground when going into battlegrounds. That way I could use far more tactics then to just rely on what I was wearing or carrying. And still not saying my way is the hardcore way , just this is how I feel hardcore is for ME. But also notice a trend in seeing that inpatient people will often label a game hardcore as for some reason people put a time frame on what to achieve in a game and if they are not able to do something asap and it might take some time it is often labeled as hardcore, where I still will say hardcore is a playstyle.

I also do not know any Hardcore games as all games can be played casual......atleast I feel I can do so due to how I can change my playstyle to fit a challenge.

I think MMORPGs are hardcore in the sort of time investment that they require.  I play most SP games in a week or two.  Maybe a month, if it's so great that I play through it more than once.  Putting the same amount of time into an MMO, I barely make it through a fraction of the content, before becoming bored out of my mind.  Due to the repetition of simplistic gameplay elements that have lost all semblance of fun, most MMO's require something akin to hardcore autism or OCD.

I think this clip sums up my feelings on hardcore.

(Replace the word extreme with hardcore)

Hardcore

Definition of hardcore player in MMO = he that has no life

"hardcore game" or "hardcore players"? because those are two way different things. You can have a hardcore player in a care bear game.

Only mmo that can qualify for being hardcore is those with permadeath. Allthough you hardly see them nowadays unless you go to some obscure indiedeveloper noone heard of, solo-developing his dream mmo, total amout of players 50, tops

If all it take to reach endgame is time then that game aint hardcore at all. If even a blind retard can complete it given enough time, what's so hardcore about it? Nah, mmo's aint hardcore today. None of them are.

Extreme hardcore gaming is like those bullethell games you linked. I personally love them to bits. Found two really good flash shmups following the bullethell formula. Not that hard though, either of them. Frantic 1 and the sequel. Second harder than the first but none of them too hard.

Originally posted by jimsmith08

Hardcore is a word nerds use to put down other nerds gaming preferences, nothing more.