The question is asking whether in an MMORPG the level cap should change over time, ala WoW/EQ or whether the level cap should be rigid, once reached that it is and there is only further advancement in equipment.

Do think about it for a moment.  There is nothing here to say that the content ends, only that your ability to level does.  We are not talking about 'end game' we are talking about over the life of an MMORPG whether the level cap should increase or not.

Good reasons to have a hard cap?  You can have a route through the game that doesn't change.  A mapped out way to improve characters.  Since the level is capped there will need to be plenty of equipment to offer advancement to players.  This will lead to lots of individualism.   Instead of presenting new levels and then a new dungeon that only those at max level can complete new content will have to take into account progression and provide content for all styles of play.  So that while the 'hardcore' may be playing against X dungeon today, in 6 months when the first expansion is out, that dungeon doesn't become obsolete but rather is still there and important for casual players rather then casual players merely skipping over content because the extra 5 levels have made the dungeon meaningless.

I would envision such a system as working in a way where each expansion added not only top end level dungeons but also dungeons for casual players to help bridge the gaps in progression that 'hard core' player breached by playing so often that they had everyone in their guild decked out in every possible item.

Of course the good reasons to have a soft cap are to allow characters to keep developing, to allow progression and new abilities to creep into the game and to make balancing changes without changing previous abilities.  Also allows for harder content to be added without doing the itemization required by other systems.  Levelling also slows down progression.  If there is a level cap then the day you release an expansion will be the day that guilds can enter and attempt new raids.  If you add 5 levels then an entire guild must complete the levelling process before they can attempt any of the new dungeons.

Adding a poll.

I voted hard cap, for many of the reasons I put above.

I am going out today though and will likely not be near a PC so won't be able to reply.  Will be interesting to come back and see what you guys think.

hard lving or just skill based (eve style) to me.

Soft cap for me.

I find new abilities to be far more of an incentive to progress than, for example, a new epic sword. I want my character to improve and grow, not just to see him wearing different armour. Item-based progression is an outmoded model imo. I'm really hoping that Blizzard are attempting to move away from with this new "Path of the Titans" end-game character progression method.

So many incorrect conclusions being drawn...

• Level Cap isn't responsible for non-max-level dungeons being empty.  Solo Questing providing superior XP is.  (and a lack of a sidekick/exemplar system.)
• Level Cap doesn't affect individualism.   Advancement Design (class/items/talents) does.
• The poll doesn't have a "No" option.  "No" is a perfectly acceptable answer to "Should there be a cap?"
• The poll doesn't have a "It doesn't matter" option.  Given that I've had fun in games with hard caps, soft caps, and no caps, I would've chosen that option.

As long as a game has features to let you play with friends (CoX's Sidekicking System), the way a game hands you levels is largely inconsequential.

Level as a game feature provides a lot of useful functions.  Sure, it could stand to be improved, but nitpicking over hard/soft/no level caps isn't what matters.

The main way to evolve Leveling in games is to make it a composite of Training Level (what you'd normall call Level in a game) and Gear Level (a formula based on your gear.)  That way it would continue acting as a conveniently accurate power rating even after you hit a level (Training Level) cap.

Voted Soft Cap.

My reasons are many, but the main reason is simply that I hate when my character stops to develop. A soft cap means my character can keep progressing and it very often means the game end-content isnt based on getting uber gear, which I very much dislike.

Go check out DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot)

Its always had a hard-level cap at 50.

There are other ways to improve or advance a character without pushing up level caps. In DAoC for example they added "champion levels" "master levels" and "realm ranks" all different ways to improve your character without passing the hard level cap.

These methods also address some of the posters concerns about getting new abilitys etc. All these methods add new abilitys to the level 50 character. Master levels provided new general abilitys. Champion levels added sub-classing abilitys and Realm ranks added more general and RvR specific abiltiys.

Thats not to say Daoc was perfect. They added thier abilitys in a non-logial way. By that I mean that Master level abilitys (gained through mostly PvE) added a factor in RvR and Realm Ranks (Gained in RvR) made a huge difference in PvE. That kind of cross-over was bad IMO. Abilitys gained through PvE should effect PvE and abilitys gained through RvR should effect RvR.

Just pointing out that a hard level cap does not mean no way to add new abilitys / gimicks to a character. You can use alternate methods of advancement that also add abilitys / functions without breaking a level cap.

The great thing about doing that is it does not immediatly make "old content" worthless, as we see all too often in other games. Old content just becomes worthless since the Mobs are too easy to kill and loot from them becomes obsoleat.

BTW- Hard level caps dont mean a gear grind. DAoC has VERY little in the way of gear grinds thanks to the level cap staying constant and the degrading of gear. There are other ways to improve upon your character without gear grinds as that game has clearly shown.

Soft Cap.

I don't like the idea of being unable to continue my progression at some pre-defined level. Even if it so slow and doesn't increase power by a large degree, the ability to increase in some way, to develop with more than just gear, is what gives a game staying power for me.

Originally posted by demarc01

Go check out DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot)

Its always had a hard-level cap at 50.

There are other ways to improve or advance a character without pushing up level caps. In DAoC for example they added "champion levels" "master levels" and "realm ranks" all different ways to improve your character without passing the hard level cap.

These methods also address some of the posters concerns about getting new abilitys etc. All these methods add new abilitys to the level 50 character. Master levels provided new general abilitys. Champion levels added sub-classing abilitys and Realm ranks added more general and RvR specific abiltiys.

Thats not to say Daoc was perfect. They added thier abilitys in a non-logial way. By that I mean that Master level abilitys (gained through mostly PvE) added a factor in RvR and Realm Ranks (Gained in RvR) made a huge difference in PvE. That kind of cross-over was bad IMO. Abilitys gained through PvE should effect PvE and abilitys gained through RvR should effect RvR.

Just pointing out that a hard level cap does not mean no way to add new abilitys / gimicks to a character. You can use alternate methods of advancement that also add abilitys / functions without breaking a level cap.

The great thing about doing that is it does not immediatly make "old content" worthless, as we see all too often in other games. Old content just becomes worthless since the Mobs are too easy to kill and loot from them becomes obsoleat.

BTW- Hard level caps dont mean a gear grind. DAoC has VERY little in the way of gear grinds thanks to the level cap staying constant and the degrading of gear. There are other ways to improve upon your character without gear grinds as that game has clearly shown.

I think you are putting too much weight into the word level cap. Is progession cap a better word? An AA system can also have both a soft cap and hard cap... at the end you are left with the same question; hard-level cap or soft-level cap?

I dont know what Daoc have, because I left the game before I got to experience it...

there should be... no levels.

Originally posted by BesCirga

Originally posted by demarc01

Go check out DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot)

Its always had a hard-level cap at 50.

There are other ways to improve or advance a character without pushing up level caps. In DAoC for example they added "champion levels" "master levels" and "realm ranks" all different ways to improve your character without passing the hard level cap.

These methods also address some of the posters concerns about getting new abilitys etc. All these methods add new abilitys to the level 50 character. Master levels provided new general abilitys. Champion levels added sub-classing abilitys and Realm ranks added more general and RvR specific abiltiys.

Thats not to say Daoc was perfect. They added thier abilitys in a non-logial way. By that I mean that Master level abilitys (gained through mostly PvE) added a factor in RvR and Realm Ranks (Gained in RvR) made a huge difference in PvE. That kind of cross-over was bad IMO. Abilitys gained through PvE should effect PvE and abilitys gained through RvR should effect RvR.

Just pointing out that a hard level cap does not mean no way to add new abilitys / gimicks to a character. You can use alternate methods of advancement that also add abilitys / functions without breaking a level cap.

The great thing about doing that is it does not immediatly make "old content" worthless, as we see all too often in other games. Old content just becomes worthless since the Mobs are too easy to kill and loot from them becomes obsoleat.

BTW- Hard level caps dont mean a gear grind. DAoC has VERY little in the way of gear grinds thanks to the level cap staying constant and the degrading of gear. There are other ways to improve upon your character without gear grinds as that game has clearly shown.

 

I think you are putting too much weight into the word level cap. Is progession cap a better word? An AA system can also have both a soft cap and hard cap... at the end you are left with the same question; hard-level cap or soft-level cap?

I dont know what Daoc have, because I left the game before I got to experience it...

No you misunderstand.

DAoC expanded sideways if you like. Instead of upping the level cap they added alternative ways to progress your character. Master levels, Champion levels, Realm ranks .. none of these were in the game on release day .. all were added later as a way to progress your character without expanding the level cap.

You say "progression cap" ... no game would have that. Basically thats a "game over" sign. Progression has to be in a MMORPG to keep it alive. That progression can be in a myriad of different forms, Levels, abilitys, gear, alternative abilitys, sub-classing, PvP rankings, etc, etc, but it pretty much has to be there. A total progression cap is game over and no MMORPG works on that model.

I think you are the one who misunderstood. The OP was pretty specific in his wording :

"There is nothing here to say that the content ends, only that your ability to level does."

He went on to talk about "gear grinds" ... at no point did he indicate a "progression cap". Personally I hate gear grinds but there are other ways to add to character advancement without raising the level or introducing over the top gear grinds. DAoC already did. The Extras I talked about (Master / Champion levels and Realm ranks) were added slowly over time with expansions ... it just takes a little creative thinking and the balls to balance new abilitys with existing content.

Theres really no difference between AA levels and a new level cap.

Oh wait, there is.

The difference is that when you get to the level cap and get to the top AA levels allow you to continue progression while remaining at the top whereas with a new level cap the people at the top are now even with the people at the bottom until the top people get to the new level cap and then the new top.

So, basically the reason people dont like soft level caps is because they want to get to the top and permanently remain there. Their super sized egos cant possibly suffer the thought of stepping down from their alabaster towers and associating with the rabble.

It is interesting to note that despite there being a more vocal group suggesting a soft cap, the votes are pretty much 50/50, of course only 15 votes, but still interesting.

WIPO: No character levels at all.

Originally posted by demarc01

No you misunderstand.

DAoC expanded sideways if you like. Instead of upping the level cap they added alternative ways to progress your character. Master levels, Champion levels, Realm ranks .. none of these were in the game on release day .. all were added later as a way to progress your character without expanding the level cap.

You say "progression cap" ... no game would have that. Basically thats a "game over" sign. Progression has to be in a MMORPG to keep it alive. That progression can be in a myriad of different forms, Levels, abilitys, gear, alternative abilitys, sub-classing, PvP rankings, etc, etc, but it pretty much has to be there. A total progression cap is game over and no MMORPG works on that model.

 

I think you are the one who misunderstood. The OP was pretty specific in his wording :

"There is nothing here to say that the content ends, only that your ability to level does."

He went on to talk about "gear grinds" ... at no point did he indicate a "progression cap". Personally I hate gear grinds but there are other ways to add to character advancement without raising the level or introducing over the top gear grinds. DAoC already did. The Extras I talked about (Master / Champion levels and Realm ranks) were added slowly over time with expansions ... it just takes a little creative thinking and the balls to balance new abilitys with existing content.

No, I didnt missunderstand. I know very well what an AA (alternative advancement) system is and what it does. All I said was that an AA system, maybe like the daoc model, may have a hard cap to, and therefore falls into the hard cap category, not the soft cap. I wasnt trying to correct you or anything, I was just adding my opinion that an AA system with an hard cap isnt worth shit and still cant be defined as a soft cap system. :)

Its true that no game have a total stop, but it may have a total stop in character progression and just let the player progress further through ranking, titles and gear. I cant handle games like that.

I voted for hard cap but in reality i'd like a mixture of both (i'm thinking of EQ type games here).

What i mean is the original game has a hard cap and expansions to that original game are mostly sideways to provide variety and fill in content gaps. However the original game is actually a kind of Chapter 1. The overall game expands through having something like EQ's Planes of Power idea or WoW's Emerald Dream and using that as Chapter 2. Max level characters have the option to go through some kind of one-way portal into this Chapter 2 and a new level 51-100 game.

The constant increase in player power you get with soft cap games eventually trivializes the original world and turns dragons into rats, however you need progression because that's the hook in these games. I think a "Chapter" system might be a good compromise.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Theres really no difference between AA levels and a new level cap.

Oh wait, there is.

The difference is that when you get to the level cap and get to the top AA levels allow you to continue progression while remaining at the top whereas with a new level cap the people at the top are now even with the people at the bottom until the top people get to the new level cap and then the new top.

So, basically the reason people dont like soft level caps is because they want to get to the top and permanently remain there. Their super sized egos cant possibly suffer the thought of stepping down from their alabaster towers and associating with the rabble.

You seem to be missing the point I was making.

Its not about reaching level cap and staying there forever to be "elite".  With the addition of other ways to progress they become just as important (if not more-so) than the actual levels. Reaching 50 in DAoC (i'll remain with my example) was concidered pretty easy. The other ways to progress we're added slowly over time. Realm Ranks came first and were expaned on again and again during the lifetime of the game to thier current cap of 13. Master levels were added in the Trials expac (thier second Xpac) and added a new way to develop. Champion levels came along with the catacombs expac and were expand upon again with the Labs expac.

So although level's were hard capped at 50, there were other ways given to progress that were soft-capped (as i said realm ranks were continually expaned upon and champion levels were also expanded upon going from CL5 in Catacombs to CL10 in Lab) I guess daoc had a mix of hard and soft caps on character progression, but from the OPs perspective the level cap was always "Hard".

I was just pointing out that a hard LEVEL cap does not mean the only way to progress is through gear grinds. Gear grinds seperate the haves from the have-nots in a far greater way than any other game mechanic. DAoC's structure with the hard level caps ment that old content was never totally invalid.

Of course DAoC was an RvR based game (Group PvP) so it made sense to follow this model. Keeping the level caps ment new players could join the fight faster.

Personally I dont really care about the mechanic used. Hard level cap or not. AA system or not. As long as there is some way I can progress in some fashion .. it'll keep my interest. Until the point that its a pure 100% gear grind .. thats when I lose interest. LotRO kept my interest for a time with the Deed system .. I worked on all my deeds taking all my traits to 11-14. Why? I got the feeling of progression, even if the deed cap is 10 currently. Once I was finished with deeds and had my Rad set ... I lost interest in the game. Nothing left to progress :(

Posted by BesCirga on 8/29/09 at 5:16:43 PM

"No, I didnt missunderstand. I know very well what an AA (alternative advancement) system is and what it does. All I said was that an AA system, maybe like the daoc model, may have a hard cap to, and therefore falls into the hard cap category, not the soft cap. I wasnt trying to correct you or anything, I was just adding my opinion that an AA system with an hard cap isnt worth shit and still cant be defined as a soft cap system. :)"

Oh I never said it was a soft cap system. Although really in DAoC's case the Champion level and Realm Ranks were soft cap systems since they were expanded in later expacs. I was just pointing out that with a hard cap on levels (just levels here) you can give the illusion of a soft cap game by expanding sideways rather than up with more levels. By adding the additional ways to progress over time you give a soft cap feeling to the game (your still able to directly progress your characters) while holding true with the hard cap system on actual levels.

This method has its advantages, it allows new players to get into the fight faster, it does not trash the older "top" content etc. It has its disadvantages too though .. too much weight on the sideways progression often makes that more important than the levels, DAoC was guilty of this in a way. Realm Ranks added far more raw "power" to your character than the actual levels did. You still required the levels but my point is the difference between a level 50 realm rank 3 and a level 50 realm rank 8 was huge.

AA systems tend to be more soft-cap that actual levels. I know EQ and EQ2 pretty much expand on thier AA system with evey expac and its now become as important to character development as the actual level. (Check out PvP servers where people disable thier XP in order to get thier AA's capped out to level)

My point was mainly ...

Theres more ways to add progression to a hard capped (level wise) game than gear grinds.

Which was the OP's stance. I dont like gear grinds :p

In a level based game:  soft cap, where max level eventually rises.

in a Skill based game:  hard cap.   Though only in the sense that on release you determine just how "powerful" players can get and never let them get more so as you open up more utilities and tools to play with as you update.

In a level based game: hard cap after raising the cap few times.

After getting to the cap make a stat based feature where you can continue growing your character with a soft cap. Your level however doesn't raise anymore, even if your stats and skills will.